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 Post subject: Strategies for beating the Czulkang Lah/Tsavong Lah combo
PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 7:11 pm 
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So with the release of the Epic Set and the release of the Vong's new champion piece, Czulkang Lah who is an incredibly powerful piece, I noticed that everyone at BlooMilk was applauding how great he was, but not talking about counters for him or the squad that emerged at Gencon along with him. The Czulkang Lah/Tsavong Lah combo squad went 7-1 at Gencon in one event and 4-0 at the Sith Trials event. I am worried that everyone will start playing this combo and and Czulkang Lah will become the next Darth Bane, the next Darth Revan or whatever amazing piece that changed the game in the past. Don't take this the wrong way, I am not against the piece at all. NO, I am against the over use of this piece and how many beginner people will play it in Epic format just because it is one of the best, if not the best new piece and provides a good chance of victory. Maybe I am underestimating the SWM players community as a whole, if so I apologize but I decided to make this topic to discuss counters to Czulkang Lah or the Czulkang/Tsavong combo. Last week during a relaxed day at the usual Atlanta group meeting, we (Graham/greentime and I who were the only people there at the time) discussed how hard it was to beat Czulkang Lah.
We estimated that with Czulkang Lah's Vonduun Crab Armor 2 (with the save of 2 almost impossible to miss), someone will need to deal 460 damage to Czulang Lah to kill him, if the attacker was doing a base 20 damage. This would be less if the attacker was dealing a 30 or 40 damage with bonuses like Cunning Attack etc. Even then if the person playing Czulkang has favorable rolls with Counterattack, your piece will be badly hurt if not defeated. A possibility could be to use a piece with Dijem So Style like Luke Skywalker, First of the New Order from the Epic Set but if I understand the rules right (I could be wrong) Czulkang Lah will be able to Counterattack the Dijem So Style attacks.

So what do you think are effective strategies for beating Czulkang Lah or the Czulkang Lah/Tsavong Lah combo? If you would spare a moment I would like to hear your thoughts. What worked for the people who successfully beat Czulkang on his own or with Tsavong at Gencon?

Edit: DarthJim corrected me that the 460 damage needed to kill Czulkang Lah was only true if the attacker was doing a base 20 damage. The text above has been corrected.

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Last edited by MFalcon on Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Strategies for beating the Czulkang Lah/Tsavong Lah combo
PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 7:11 pm 
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MFalcon wrote:
So with the release of the Epic Set and the release of the Vong's new champion piece, Czulkang Lah who is an incredibly powerful piece, I noticed that everyone at BlooMilk was applauding how great he was, but not talking about counters for him or the squad that emerged at Gencon along with him. The Czulkang Lah/Tsavong Lah combo squad went 7-1 at Gencon in one event and 4-0 at the Sith Trials event. I am worried that everyone will start playing this combo and and Czulkang Lah will become the next Darth Bane, the next Darth Revan or whatever amazing piece that changed the game in the past. Don't take this the wrong way, I am not against the piece at all. NO, I am against the over use of this piece and how many beginner people will play it in Epic format just because it is one of the best, if not the best new piece and provides a good chance of victory. Maybe I am underestimating the SWM players community as a whole, if so I apologize but I decided to make this topic to discuss counters to Czulkang Lah or the Czulkang/Tsavong combo. Last week during a relaxed day at the usual Atlanta group meeting, we (Graham/greentime and I who were the only people there at the time) discussed how hard it was to beat Czulkang Lah.
We estimated that with Czulkang Lah's Vonduun Crab Armor 2 (with the save of 2 almost impossible to miss), someone will need to deal 460 damage to Czulang Lah to kill him. Even then if the person playing Czulkang has favorable rolls with Counterattack, your piece will be badly hurt if not defeated. A possibility could be to use a piece with Dijem So Style like Luke Skywalker, First of the New Order from the Epic Set but if I understand the rules right (I could be wrong) Czulkang Lah will be able to Counterattack the Dijem So Style attacks.

So what do you think are effective strategies for beating Czulkang Lah or the Czulkang Lah/Tsavong Lah combo? If you would spare a moment I would like to hear your thoughts. What worked for the people who successfully beat Czulkang on his own or with Tsavong at Gencon?



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 Post subject: Re: Strategies for beating the Czulkang Lah/Tsavong Lah combo
PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 7:25 pm 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
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True...very true. Ganner would take him on one by one and would kick his butt. There would be no fighting against Th Ganner;s attacks. This was the guy who took down hundreds of Vong warriors literally surrounding him on all sides. As long as the Epic The Ganner won't have Dijem So Style though.

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 Post subject: Re: Strategies for beating the Czulkang Lah/Tsavong Lah combo
PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:35 pm 
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MFalcon wrote:
We estimated that with Czulkang Lah's Vonduun Crab Armor 2 (with the save of 2 almost impossible to miss), someone will need to deal 460 damage to Czulang Lah to kill him.


You are correct if the attackers are all doing 20pts of damage per attack. If the damage comes in bigger chunks, however, that total drops dramatically.

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 Post subject: Re: Strategies for beating the Czulkang Lah/Tsavong Lah combo
PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 11:21 pm 
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Darth Bane in Orbalisk Armor and Atton "Jaq" Rand would probably work well. And I think Mara Jade Skywalker, Galactic Hero and Zuckuss, Bounty Hunter would too, if you snare him and use anticipation the next round to try to go first.

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 Post subject: Re: Strategies for beating the Czulkang Lah/Tsavong Lah combo
PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 11:58 pm 
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Vader and a good shooter (Cad Bane I think) smokes the Lah family. Mace and Boba Merc does quite well if you use the right strategy. Luke and Han with the right strategy, Mara and Han GH, same deal.

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 Post subject: Re: Strategies for beating the Czulkang Lah/Tsavong Lah combo
PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:45 am 
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The challenge of using a shooter (Cad is probably the most popular choice) is that the Charging Assault from both Lahs is VERY effective at chasing down shooters. I never faced a Cad Bane in the tourney at Gencon, but if I did, my strategy was to ignore the other epic and kill Cad first. And with the Lahs doing 90dmg from 12 squares away, Cad can easily die in one round. If you're going to go with the shooters, the maproll will be huge for their survivability, because they won't live long once the Lahs close the gap.

At Gencon I beat Boba and Mace with the Lahs, and that's with Czulkang rolling a 1 on the first kill shot vs Mace, which allowed Mace to live another round and kill Tsavong with a crit-streak on his turn. Czulkang ended up finishing off Boba with 90 hp left, after Boba had won 4 or 5 inits in a row and kept pulling door tricks to shoot and stay away. If I hadn't rolled the 1, Mace would've died a round earlier, which would've allowed Tsavong to live to negate Boba's door tricks. Basically, Mace needs a crit-streak to kill Czulkang...and that's if Mace starts his turn with enough HP to survive Czulkang's counter-attacks (Mace does 60 on a crit, Lah does 60 back on a counter-attack [no riposte from Mace thx to FI], 50% of the time).

Vader will be a tougher matchup too, but only because he removes the counter-attack...he still takes 120 dmg per round (or less, if dark armor is working) from Czulkang, as well as a regular peppering from Tsavong.

Basically, the Lah's greatest weakness is strong shooters. And even then, the 12-square threat range is pretty significant. Actually, I would think Mara could be one of the biggest counters to the Lahs, since she can shoot for good dmg from far away and still survive decently well once they arrive. Furthermore, it would be pretty cool, because the partners would then both be from the UH set (Luke and Warmaster). :) Likewise, Luke/Han could be a problem too if Luke goes crit-crazy...but again, Han's low HP will mean he probably dies fast.

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 Post subject: Re: Strategies for beating the Czulkang Lah/Tsavong Lah combo
PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:19 am 
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Darth_Jim wrote:
MFalcon wrote:
We estimated that with Czulkang Lah's Vonduun Crab Armor 2 (with the save of 2 almost impossible to miss), someone will need to deal 460 damage to Czulang Lah to kill him.


You are correct if the attackers are all doing 20pts of damage per attack. If the damage comes in bigger chunks, however, that total drops dramatically.


You are right. I completly missed that.I will edit my original post to explain that better.

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 Post subject: Re: Strategies for beating the Czulkang Lah/Tsavong Lah combo
PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:29 am 
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billiv15 wrote:
Vader and a good shooter (Cad Bane I think) smokes the Lah family. Mace and Boba Merc does quite well if you use the right strategy. Luke and Han with the right strategy, Mara and Han GH, same deal.


Nice combos! I am more enclined torwards Mara and Han Gh because I am a big NR fan but I also like the Luke and Han idea too. On the latter combo, Luke could use his "First of the New Order" ability to give Han Force 1 which would help Han get farther away from Czulkang.

Edit: I made several mistakes in this post, forgetting about the VOng FOrce Immunity. The post has been retconned.

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Last edited by MFalcon on Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Strategies for beating the Czulkang Lah/Tsavong Lah combo
PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:34 am 
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MFalcon wrote:
On the latter combo, Luke could use his "First of the New Order" ability to give Han Force 1 and Lightsaber Deflect which would help incase Czulkang manages to base Han.



Not sure how a Force Point helps against Vong, at least there's no Jedi Hunter. For that matter, not sure how Lightsaber Deflect would work against a Melee piece...especially one with Force Immunity :D

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 Post subject: Re: Strategies for beating the Czulkang Lah/Tsavong Lah combo
PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:39 am 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
MFalcon wrote:
On the latter combo, Luke could use his "First of the New Order" ability to give Han Force 1 and Lightsaber Deflect which would help incase Czulkang manages to base Han.



Not sure how a Force Point helps against Vong, at least there's no Jedi Hunter. For that matter, not sure how Lightsaber Deflect would work against a Melee piece...especially one with Force Immunity :D



Welll dang I am making mistakes this morning...I am going to go give that post a cleaning. I guess I meant use the Force Point for extra movement.

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 Post subject: Re: Strategies for beating the Czulkang Lah/Tsavong Lah combo
PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:56 am 
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MFalcon wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
MFalcon wrote:
On the latter combo, Luke could use his "First of the New Order" ability to give Han Force 1 and Lightsaber Deflect which would help incase Czulkang manages to base Han.



Not sure how a Force Point helps against Vong, at least there's no Jedi Hunter. For that matter, not sure how Lightsaber Deflect would work against a Melee piece...especially one with Force Immunity :D



Welll dang I am making mistakes this morning...I am going to go give that post a cleaning. I guess I meant use the Force Point for extra movement.



Lol don't sweat it, and don't let it keep you from starting and participating in helpful discussions like this one.

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 Post subject: Re: Strategies for beating the Czulkang Lah/Tsavong Lah combo
PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 10:21 am 
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thereisnotry wrote:
The challenge of using a shooter (Cad is probably the most popular choice) is that the Charging Assault from both Lahs is VERY effective at chasing down shooters. I never faced a Cad Bane in the tourney at Gencon, but if I did, my strategy was to ignore the other epic and kill Cad first. And with the Lahs doing 90dmg from 12 squares away, Cad can easily die in one round. If you're going to go with the shooters, the maproll will be huge for their survivability, because they won't live long once the Lahs close the gap.


Wait, do I get to count to 12 as well, or only the Lah player? :) Doors can be your friend, particularly with Boba. The "counter" strategy or the obvious way to play Cad Vader, is to stay more than 12 away with Cad, and Base with Vader. If you win init, Vader can seriously harm daddy without retaliation (dark assault and overwhelming power2). Then the Lah player will have to decide to try to chase down Cad (he should be 13-14 away to start the round or you screwed up), or attack Vader with one of them, who won't kill him. Then Cad gets a free round of attacks, and gets to likely hit either for 40dmg more (not a lot, but together with Vader puts either in serious pain and dead on the next init). Alternately, if you lose init with Vader, you are still in good shape. They still have the same choice, fight Vader, or chase down Cad for 0 dmg. You can take the AoO from Vader after attacking once to prevent Dark Assault, but then you are just trading damage with him and not doing enough to get ahead anyway. Then Vader makes his attacks, and Cad can still move away. Assuming you chase down Cad and end the round within 12, you are still init dependent on killing him. If Vader can kill the other Lah, I'll let you have Cad at that point, and respond by killing your Lah. Vader at 1/2 can beat the Warmaster with ease once daddy is gone.

As for the Mara Han combo, it's all about using disruptive to prevent the WM from getting daddy's CE for a round or two. Nothing more is necessary as Mara can kill either one in 2 rounds of attacks (and of course she gets the first one off for free).

Boba/Mace or Boba Mandalore both work really well also. Boba/Mace needs an init win or two, but the no AoO's, door tricks, and massive damage potential of Mace can beat the Lahs around 50% of the time. If Mace makes no crits, he loses, but the Lahs is the one case were you always use Precision 2. Boba Mandalore is basically a dice rolling contest to determine the winner lol.

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 Post subject: Re: Strategies for beating the Czulkang Lah/Tsavong Lah combo
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:11 pm 
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Hey guys,
Forgive me if I missed something, such as possibly a recosting of Vader, but epic Vader= 152pts and Cad=54, total is 206 pts. Is this right, and if so, this duo can't fit in a 200 pt epic contest. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks in advance...................................


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 Post subject: Re: Strategies for beating the Czulkang Lah/Tsavong Lah combo
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:44 am 
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One interesting combo I've seen is use Obi, UL and get him killed to give Luke the 8 extra FPs and MOTF 3. Then take Luke and Use The Force three times while using Twin Blaster to drop 150 damage on Czulkang Lah from a distance with the possibility of another 60 if you hit normally with the third Flurry and the Twin. Even w/ Crab Armor 2, Czulkang Lah will still be taking 160 damage. Then if you win initiative next round, Luke should have built up enough FPs to finish Czulkang Lah off leaving Tsavong Lah having to deal w/ an untouched Epic Luke.

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 Post subject: Re: Strategies for beating the Czulkang Lah/Tsavong Lah combo
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:40 pm 
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When Luke uses twin blasters and UTF the flurry attack that is generated is a normal melee attack (not a blaster shot). So with the extra force you could do 80 (60) on one turn (wasting the flurries) and then do it again the next turn. With Obi dead it would be 10 more on each with impulsive reprisal. If you can do that twice before Lah reaches you, should be no problem. Alternatively if you use Han as your pair you can get in some damage with Han early and finish up with Luke. All you really nead is luke to be 1/3 alive or better when you finish off Dad to take out a full health son IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: Strategies for beating the Czulkang Lah/Tsavong Lah combo
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:57 pm 
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urbanjedi wrote:
When Luke uses twin blasters and UTF the flurry attack that is generated is a normal melee attack (not a blaster shot).


Something else that was supposed to be addressed in the glossary to prevent the confusion about switching between non-melee and melee but as usual the rules guys went with the standard interpretations and ignored designers' intents. Sigh.

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 Post subject: Re: Strategies for beating the Czulkang Lah/Tsavong Lah combo
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:27 pm 
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Can someone please explain why Flurry only allows the the extra attack as a melee attack? Thanks in advance :emperor:


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 Post subject: Re: Strategies for beating the Czulkang Lah/Tsavong Lah combo
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:33 pm 
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darthmaim wrote:
Can someone please explain why Flurry only allows the the extra attack as a melee attack? Thanks in advance :emperor:


Remember that Luke Skywalker, First of the New Order is a Melee figure. He has Twin Blaster 20 that replaces his normal attacks and allows him to make two non-melee attacks. It is not a SA that can be increased by any other SA. For this reason, additional attacks from Flurry Attack, Extra Attack, or any other SA or CE that affect Luke and grant more attacks must be Melee attacks.

However, if you are adjacent to Czulkang Lah you can use Twin Blaster 20 to avoid the Counterattack since they are not melee attacks. But any flurries will still be subject to Counterattack.

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 Post subject: Re: Strategies for beating the Czulkang Lah/Tsavong Lah combo
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:29 pm 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
urbanjedi wrote:
When Luke uses twin blasters and UTF the flurry attack that is generated is a normal melee attack (not a blaster shot).


Something else that was supposed to be addressed in the glossary to prevent the confusion about switching between non-melee and melee but as usual the rules guys went with the standard interpretations and ignored designers' intents. Sigh.


Because the "Flurry is useless if you only have one legal target, which you kill with the crit" is much more intuitive with Flurry.

That said, I don't recall seeing that question, and I'm not entirely sure I would agree with that ruling. But then, the way the game handles changing of attack types has always been a headache. Why people want more of it, I don't know.

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