billiv15 wrote:
First, other than the insinuation of criminal activity from Dan, I have no issue with anything being asked of us. As far as being clear and honest about what we are doing with the funds, I consider any post in this thread that I have made a part of that. I've not hidden that we owe money for DotF, and that given the chance, we'd like to pay that back. But this isn't going to be done at the expense of other things, nor is it being hidden. I prefer not to post the specifics of who paid what, because it's a privacy issue for those who covered it. In the NPO world, you can't see how much someone donated to an organization. As far as posting a total amount, I will probably do that in time, but some of that is still being sorted out. And again, we aren't going to use RaR funds alone to pay this off. But that's part of the point too. You didn't donate just for RaR alone. You donated to our group, to provide sets for the community, and in the process we promise that you will get a copy of those sets by donating a certain amount (like getting a free foursome of golf when you donate $500 to a random NPO). We will provide full financial details of all of the funding and expenses when we have that information. DotF, is part of donating to our cause, because we did not pay for it fully the first time. That's just the reality of the situation, and I'm not hiding anything about it. We as a community agreed to provide sets to people, and we are continually trying to do that. The same is true of our next sets. It all goes hand in hand in my opinion. It's probably best if you view the donation as donating to "the community to continue to provide sets to everyone who wants them". That's what your donation is for, and that's exactly how I have always explained it.
Bill,
As I have stated repeatedly. I have not accused anybody of any inappropriate actions to this point. In your original post you stated:
billiv15 wrote:
1) V-set funding. First, I’ve set up a new Paypal account for V-set funding. This is very important. Those that have already donated to R&R through the old account, need to file a claim with paypal against Dean. There is no other way at this time to deal with this unfortunately. Paypal claims are easy, simply go to the site and look it up. You will not receive anything from donations that were made in this way. I am deeply sorry, but this is all we can do. Secondly, I’ve set up a new account. You will need to re-donate to this account. Engineer, Ruhk, Dvader and I all have access to this account and we promise to give regular updates to donations totals and what is still needed to meet the printing/shipping goals. It also means that if one of us has to step away in the future, there are other people able to access the account.
2) RaR, BoT and Epic costs. We need $5000 to pay for the three V-sets currently in production. RaR is a 60 piece set, Bot is 10 pieces, and the Epic set is 12 for a total of 82 cards. This means our production cost is much higher than before, especially with the special card designs for the Epic set. We raised about $1600 for DotF and in the end it was not enough even with the extra donations to cover the costs of shipping and production. So we have upped the request this time around to cover what we now know are the accurate costs. Further, if you do not donate, your odds of getting a set are going to be much lower this time around. We need people to contribute or we cannot have these printed.
At no point was there anything mentioned about using any potential excess funds for any other projects or plans to pay back a debt to the people who stepped up the plate to get V-Set 1 completed.
In your original post, or what is commonly referred to as a mission statement, you should have listed a strategic plan, with its clearly stated goals and their respective costs. There you could have also placed a caveat for potential excess funds and the potential uses for said funds. i.e clearly stating that these funds are for the years projects...not just assuming that everybody donating would just understand that this was a donation to the community for whatever the design team or as you put it, "our group" decides is best. It was my understanding and I am sure the understanding of many others that this donation was only for this set.
Now does that mean that if it had been explicitly spelled out that these were the intended goals and intended purposes that anybody that has donated to this point would have changed their mind, I doubt it. Heck it might have even increased the amount of donations you received. I would have been much less hesitant to donate.
I am sure that your(you and the design team) ideas and plans for the future of this game are well intended and are good for the community. I only take issue that because the previous steps were not taken that the discussion of these plans and ideas are not only premature, but should be decided by the people that donated once the numbers are finalized.
billiv15 wrote:
Further, if a large number of people have an issue with using some potential surplus finds (remember, we aren't even sure there are surplus at this time, it's only a guess that we might have some that we are arguing about) to repay some members who had to step up and make sure we could keep continuing these projects by donating beyond what most people have done, then I'd consider not doing it I suppose. But I'm pretty sure, if you all knew the nature of the situation, you'd have little problem with it. I'm just asking for trust in us to handle it properly, and in the best interest of the community, not for personal gain or any such misappropriation. We are perfectly capable of making proper decisions regarding any potential surplus donations. We will never use any "extra" funds for anything other than continuing to support our game for this community. In my mind, paying off depts from a previous, but very flawed attempt, is part and parcel to that goal. I don't separate it out into this set verses that set, etc. We have a total balance sheet for the year, and I'm working on making that end up in the black, which we will release to the community directly when we've got there.
My original post that started us down this road:
Jordan wrote:
The second issue I have is that I have heard that there is excess funding figured into this $5000 and will be used to help pay for V-set 3. I don't want to sound skeptical, but there are no guarantees that there will be a V-set 3. I guess I am a "Plan ahead, but only take one step at a time" kind of guy. If this is accurate, this is setting ourselves up for another potential funding scandal.
the response I got that satisfied my concerns...
Ruhk wrote:
The total goal of donations was based on cost quotes from the printer and based on the amount we were short from DotF.
Where did you hear that there is excess planned? Every dollar raised is going towards the printed and distribution of R&R/BoT/EDD.
and posts that followed after I donated...
billiv15 wrote:
Yep, having extra money will not hurt in anyway. It will allow us to print more of these sets or work on other side projects throughout the year as well.
billiv15 wrote:
Several individuals paid out of their own pockets a good deal of money to finish DotF. I am not going to say how much this was or who did it or why, just out of privacy concerns, I'd rather keep it private. Needless to say, we will pay them back as we can. We owe these extremely generous people that. Some will come from extra money generated for V-sets, most from Gencon fundraising we think. The rest of the extra money from both things, will go towards new stuff for the community in the fall, including what I hope will be the return of league kits in the fall/spring for local groups.
As I said in an earlier post:
Jordan wrote:
If you were using this money to fund side projects and future sets that should have been disclosed in the initial post. While I am not accusing anybody of any wrongdoing or planning on doing anything inappropriate, this is certainly the type of information that I wanted before I donated a days pay to this project.
Concerning the people that donated to original V-Set to get it finished, I have no issue with taking up a donation to pay them back. I do have issue with using funds that are being donated for the production of this V-Set to do that.
I suggest for a third time that we hold a separate fund-raiser for that purpose. That would however require telling the community the amount that was donated as a whole by these individuals. (
no names or amounts by a singular person). Something I am baffled that the community is being kept in the dark about. I know that if I had known about the shortage of funds in the original set I would have contributed a little more to make sure it was completed. To refer to the money that these people took from there own pockets of their own free will, as a
debt owed by the people that donated towards this set seems to be a very tricky and sticky area. Especially since it was not disclosed in the original post asking for funds for this project, using the money we are discussing to "pay them back", would be by definition misappropriation. You do not have to use this money for your own personal gain for this to be true. To use it for any other project, purpose or any other word you choose to use, other than what was originally defined when asking for a donation is misappropriation.
I know that you and the rest of the design team have done nothing illegal and have not said that you have. I have said that if certain actions that have been posted in this thread take place, then you run the risk of that being the case, or at least being perceived as so. It seems to me that you are seeing one word and reacting to it. I ask that you take my comments and questions in context. As I said before:
Jordan wrote:
I would like to add that I am not a lawyer, but please consult one before you spend any of the money raised for this project on anything other than it's original stated purpose.
I want to make this perfectly clear, this is not anything personal with the design team or any other person involved in any of the projects. I am not posting to ruffle feathers or discourage the design team or anybody else involved in this or any future projects. This is not a matter of me or anybody else trusting the design team. I do trust that you have the best intentions. I am saying that there are specific ways that situations like this should be handled. All I am asking for is that since there is no clear mission statement about the use of these funds, that you then take a vote about how the funds be used and not assume that everyone will be just fine with whatever you decide. There is a reason I designate which charity my money gets funneled to, when I donate to the United Way. I do not agree with how all the organizations supported by the United way use the their funds.
I hope that this is my last post on this matter and intend to not bring up any further comments or questions concerning these matters. At least until the matters have been decided on and acted on. When the attacks for my comments come, and I am sure they will come, please keep in mind...I made no personal attacks. I simply explained my concerns and gave examples to back up those concerns and even attempted to provide other possible solutions.
Also remember that as I have said before, just because you do not agree with my point of view, it doesn't mean my point of view is wrong. In my eyes this is not an issue of trust. It is an issue of procedure.
I will quote Obi-Wan Kenobi again, "You must do what you feel is right, of course."