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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:28 pm 
Unnamed Wookiee
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LESHIPPY wrote:
Dan if we charged you for shipping, you would then be upset when I physically hand you a set like I did for DOTF. Which didn't cost anything except my gas to drive to Kokomo. Of course if you would like to pay for the shipping and then pay for my gas to get to Kokomo I would not complain.

Please note that the shipping is very complicated. There are several location like we have here in IN where everything (20+ sets) are shipped to one person and then that person hands stuff out. Put there are other locations where there are just one to three people in the state on these boards and they still have to get there sets.

I think the 20+ sets used flat rate shipping from the USPS where you buy the box and pay $4 to ship. So the shipping for the large groups is small per set where shipping overseas and traking it is very expensive. Shipping one set to BFE, Idaho is in the middle.


Maybe I did not phase my question right? Simply are we as a group paying for shipping to people that are getting free sets? I assume that shipping would be included in the cost of the donation. I was trying to understand the whole shipping issue. Thank you for the information.


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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:33 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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Jordan wrote:
I knew that bringing this up would upset some people and potentially create some animosity that may leave me feeling unwelcome at Gencon, (I am already considering not going in fear of being labeled a malcontent and being treated as an outcast) but felt that sitting silently would be wrong.


You know you could have just called me. You have my number. i would have answered any question to the best of my ability. My advice. Enjoy the sets and go to GenCon and have a good time. If you have questions or concerns about anything SWMrelated feel free to call, email, or text me.

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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:36 pm 
Master of the Order
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Well I typed a very long response and then my browser crashed so I will sum up what I wrote before by asking one question:

Which would be worse? Setting a goal and cutting off donations when we reach that exact amount and then falling short on funds and having to come back to the community begging at the last minute for more, or collecting what is offered in full and then setting the rest aside to take care of printing and shipping for previous/future sets? Because really those are the only 2 realistic options under the current system.

The alternative is to just set an annual goal of $15,000 with no specific listed projects and spend all year trying to raise it from the community. Who's for that, can I see a show of hands? I didn't think so.

Point is, if you have a better suggestion on how a volunteer group can best cover printing costs and shipment expenses at a global level, please share it. Otherwise, whether you realize it or not, your insinuations and argumentative stance serve no other purpose than to completely destroy this project.

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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:41 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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Jordan wrote:
Maybe I did not phase my question right? Simply are we as a group paying for shipping to people that are getting free sets? I assume that shipping would be included in the cost of the donation. I was trying to understand the whole shipping issue. Thank you for the information.


Since you donated Dan we will not be asking for shipping on top of the $50 you already gave.

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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:49 pm 
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Jordan wrote:
Maybe I did not phase my question right? Simply are we as a group paying for shipping to people that are getting free sets? I assume that shipping would be included in the cost of the donation. I was trying to understand the whole shipping issue. Thank you for the information.


Look at it this way: People who are donating money to this project are ensuring that people who want a set, even if they can't afford the $50 suggested donation or even the price of shipping, will potentially get a set after all those who donated get their sets. It's a lump sum donation and I'm glad the guys aren't nickel-and-diming people for shipping after these sizable donations. Will some people get sets for free? Yes. But in not paying for a set, they lose out on the opportunity to be guaranteed a set, and are at the mercy of the numbers.

I'd like to pose some questions to you: do you have a problem with surplus R&R money being used for other projects? If so, what do you propose the money goes to? Say the team ends up with $500 in surplus. Where is that supposed to go? They've already sent their order to the printer, and I'd imagine that ordering a second print run would be tedious, and there's no guarantee we need more sets down the line. After all, isn't it preferable they have a surplus rather than a deficit, and have to start paying out of pocket for this set, just like with the last set? Nobody will ever be able to predict exactly how much will be needed for shipping and everything, so the only two states which this project can end are in a surplus and in a deficit, and I know which one I'd prefer the design team to have to deal with.

Edit: Simul with Dennis


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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 1:16 pm 
Unnamed Wookiee
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Well I typed a very long response and then my browser crashed so I will sum up what I wrote before by asking one question:

Which would be worse? Setting a goal and cutting off donations when we reach that exact amount and then falling short on funds and having to come back to the community begging at the last minute for more, or collecting what is offered in full and then setting the rest aside to take care of printing and shipping for previous/future sets? Because really those are the only 2 realistic options under the current system.

The alternative is to just set an annual goal of $15,000 with no specific listed projects and spend all year trying to raise it from the community. Who's for that, can I see a show of hands? I didn't think so.

Point is, if you have a better suggestion on how a volunteer group can best cover printing costs and shipment expenses at a global level, please share it. Otherwise, whether you realize it or not, your insinuations and argumentative stance serve no other purpose than to completely destroy this project.


Demosthenes wrote:
I'd like to pose some questions to you: do you have a problem with surplus R&R money being used for other projects? If so, what do you propose the money goes to? Say the team ends up with $500 in surplus. Where is that supposed to go? They've already sent their order to the printer, and I'd imagine that ordering a second print run would be tedious, and there's no guarantee we need more sets down the line. After all, isn't it preferable they have a surplus rather than a deficit, and have to start paying out of pocket for this set, just like with the last set? Nobody will ever be able to predict exactly how much will be needed for shipping and everything, so the only two states which this project can end are in a surplus and in a deficit, and I know which one I'd prefer the design team to have to deal with.Edit: Simul with Dennis


Boris & Demosthenes,

I cannot imagine that my voicing my concern over information would be the demise of these projects. You have a lot of support. (including mine) I have only asked repeatedly for full disclosure. I am involved in several fraternal organizations and we frequently raise funds for projects. We are currently raising funds for a specific building improvement. We have gotten our estimate and are requesting members to donate to that particular project. We will not use any of the funds raised for any other projects without either disclosing our intentions when we raise the funds, or with a vote of the members of that organization if there is excess funds. I know that this is not an exactly identical match in circumstances, but there are similarities. I suggest that handle this in a similar way. Ask what the will of the Community is. Once this project is completed, show what the remaining balance is and list your ideas for the use of the money and let the members of this forum make the decision.

I guess I should say that I really do not have an issue with the ideas that are being kicked around about what to do with any excess funds. It occurs to me that my real issue is those providing the funds are not getting a say in how the money is being spent.

I would like to suggest that we do a fund raising for the people that stepped up to plate and made it possible for the last set to be completed. (unless of course the people would prefer that that not be done) I truly think that this is a great idea. It just needs to be completely separate from this project.


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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 2:00 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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I would like to quickly point out that technically everyone is getting a set for free. Donating to the cause just insures that you will definitely get a set. And shipping of the actual sets to the distribution team (aka the company printing the sets charges us to ship them out to someone who then works on distributing them among everyone else).


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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 2:32 pm 
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Jordan wrote:
Once this project is completed, show what the remaining balance is and list your ideas for the use of the money and let the members of this forum make the decision.


This is a good idea, and is exactly how I imagine the Design Team will handle the excess funds. I think that people mentioning "side projects" just meant that they would like to see money go towards their pet project, not that the money had already been set aside for this purpose.

I can understand your perspective, but I just think that you're not giving them enough credit, mostly because you haven't been given insight into their private planning threads and stuff. I have no knowledge of the design process or the group that oversees it, but even from that outsider perspective, I can be almost certain that once the money is raised and all the sets are in the hands of their respective Pointmen, they will tell us how much money they have left over and will give out ideas for how it should be spent. At that point, the community will give thoughts on where they'd like it to go, and whatever decision is most desired, that will happen.


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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:20 pm 
Really Cool Alien from a Cantina
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I think Jordan has a point. We aren't asking for double-entry bookkeeping ledgers showing where every penny went. Just give an overview - printing the first set cost $X, of which $Y was covered by community donations and $Z by members of the design group. Same for the second set. Is that an unreasonable request? If anything people would be more inclined to donate if design committee members are going into their own pockets for thousands of dollars without even telling anyone. Reading that just now in this thread makes me want to donate more.

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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:30 pm 
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Nothing being asked for is unreasonable nor is it something that we hadn't already discussed doing. We're take the trust of the community very seriously, and I would hope that our handling of the clean-up with the problems that arose with DotF would demonstrate the truth of that sentiment.

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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:07 am 
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Just made my donation and for 2 of my game group for 150.00

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:35 am 
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greentime wrote:
I think Jordan has a point. We aren't asking for double-entry bookkeeping ledgers showing where every penny went. Just give an overview - printing the first set cost $X, of which $Y was covered by community donations and $Z by members of the design group. Same for the second set. Is that an unreasonable request? If anything people would be more inclined to donate if design committee members are going into their own pockets for thousands of dollars without even telling anyone. Reading that just now in this thread makes me want to donate more.


First, other than the insinuation of criminal activity from Dan, I have no issue with anything being asked of us. As far as being clear and honest about what we are doing with the funds, I consider any post in this thread that I have made a part of that. I've not hidden that we owe money for DotF, and that given the chance, we'd like to pay that back. But this isn't going to be done at the expense of other things, nor is it being hidden. I prefer not to post the specifics of who paid what, because it's a privacy issue for those who covered it. In the NPO world, you can't see how much someone donated to an organization. As far as posting a total amount, I will probably do that in time, but some of that is still being sorted out. And again, we aren't going to use RaR funds alone to pay this off. But that's part of the point too. You didn't donate just for RaR alone. You donated to our group, to provide sets for the community, and in the process we promise that you will get a copy of those sets by donating a certain amount (like getting a free foursome of golf when you donate $500 to a random NPO). We will provide full financial details of all of the funding and expenses when we have that information. DotF, is part of donating to our cause, because we did not pay for it fully the first time. That's just the reality of the situation, and I'm not hiding anything about it. We as a community agreed to provide sets to people, and we are continually trying to do that. The same is true of our next sets. It all goes hand in hand in my opinion. It's probably best if you view the donation as donating to "the community to continue to provide sets to everyone who wants them". That's what your donation is for, and that's exactly how I have always explained it.

Further, if a large number of people have an issue with using some potential surplus finds (remember, we aren't even sure there are surplus at this time, it's only a guess that we might have some that we are arguing about) to repay some members who had to step up and make sure we could keep continuing these projects by donating beyond what most people have done, then I'd consider not doing it I suppose. But I'm pretty sure, if you all knew the nature of the situation, you'd have little problem with it. I'm just asking for trust in us to handle it properly, and in the best interest of the community, not for personal gain or any such misappropriation. We are perfectly capable of making proper decisions regarding any potential surplus donations. We will never use any "extra" funds for anything other than continuing to support our game for this community. In my mind, paying off depts from a previous, but very flawed attempt, is part and parcel to that goal. I don't separate it out into this set verses that set, etc. We have a total balance sheet for the year, and I'm working on making that end up in the black, which we will release to the community directly when we've got there.

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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:05 am 
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While my donation of 50.00 is just a small part of the pot. I want you to know that I have trust in the team handling the funds. I was initially concerned with how it was going to go, but with the regular updates I have felt comfortable knowing that my money was going to be used to benefit the community. Should there be extra funds, then I am sure you will use it wisely, regardless if it is to fund a small microset just for donators or used to repay any of DotF debt.

I am happy that my small surplus may help to make up another players deficit so that we all can continue to enjoy this game!

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:11 pm 
Unnamed Wookiee
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billiv15 wrote:
First, other than the insinuation of criminal activity from Dan, I have no issue with anything being asked of us. As far as being clear and honest about what we are doing with the funds, I consider any post in this thread that I have made a part of that. I've not hidden that we owe money for DotF, and that given the chance, we'd like to pay that back. But this isn't going to be done at the expense of other things, nor is it being hidden. I prefer not to post the specifics of who paid what, because it's a privacy issue for those who covered it. In the NPO world, you can't see how much someone donated to an organization. As far as posting a total amount, I will probably do that in time, but some of that is still being sorted out. And again, we aren't going to use RaR funds alone to pay this off. But that's part of the point too. You didn't donate just for RaR alone. You donated to our group, to provide sets for the community, and in the process we promise that you will get a copy of those sets by donating a certain amount (like getting a free foursome of golf when you donate $500 to a random NPO). We will provide full financial details of all of the funding and expenses when we have that information. DotF, is part of donating to our cause, because we did not pay for it fully the first time. That's just the reality of the situation, and I'm not hiding anything about it. We as a community agreed to provide sets to people, and we are continually trying to do that. The same is true of our next sets. It all goes hand in hand in my opinion. It's probably best if you view the donation as donating to "the community to continue to provide sets to everyone who wants them". That's what your donation is for, and that's exactly how I have always explained it.


Bill,

As I have stated repeatedly. I have not accused anybody of any inappropriate actions to this point. In your original post you stated:

billiv15 wrote:
1) V-set funding. First, I’ve set up a new Paypal account for V-set funding. This is very important. Those that have already donated to R&R through the old account, need to file a claim with paypal against Dean. There is no other way at this time to deal with this unfortunately. Paypal claims are easy, simply go to the site and look it up. You will not receive anything from donations that were made in this way. I am deeply sorry, but this is all we can do. Secondly, I’ve set up a new account. You will need to re-donate to this account. Engineer, Ruhk, Dvader and I all have access to this account and we promise to give regular updates to donations totals and what is still needed to meet the printing/shipping goals. It also means that if one of us has to step away in the future, there are other people able to access the account.

2) RaR, BoT and Epic costs. We need $5000 to pay for the three V-sets currently in production. RaR is a 60 piece set, Bot is 10 pieces, and the Epic set is 12 for a total of 82 cards. This means our production cost is much higher than before, especially with the special card designs for the Epic set. We raised about $1600 for DotF and in the end it was not enough even with the extra donations to cover the costs of shipping and production. So we have upped the request this time around to cover what we now know are the accurate costs. Further, if you do not donate, your odds of getting a set are going to be much lower this time around. We need people to contribute or we cannot have these printed.


At no point was there anything mentioned about using any potential excess funds for any other projects or plans to pay back a debt to the people who stepped up the plate to get V-Set 1 completed.

In your original post, or what is commonly referred to as a mission statement, you should have listed a strategic plan, with its clearly stated goals and their respective costs. There you could have also placed a caveat for potential excess funds and the potential uses for said funds. i.e clearly stating that these funds are for the years projects...not just assuming that everybody donating would just understand that this was a donation to the community for whatever the design team or as you put it, "our group" decides is best. It was my understanding and I am sure the understanding of many others that this donation was only for this set.

Now does that mean that if it had been explicitly spelled out that these were the intended goals and intended purposes that anybody that has donated to this point would have changed their mind, I doubt it. Heck it might have even increased the amount of donations you received. I would have been much less hesitant to donate.

I am sure that your(you and the design team) ideas and plans for the future of this game are well intended and are good for the community. I only take issue that because the previous steps were not taken that the discussion of these plans and ideas are not only premature, but should be decided by the people that donated once the numbers are finalized.

billiv15 wrote:
Further, if a large number of people have an issue with using some potential surplus finds (remember, we aren't even sure there are surplus at this time, it's only a guess that we might have some that we are arguing about) to repay some members who had to step up and make sure we could keep continuing these projects by donating beyond what most people have done, then I'd consider not doing it I suppose. But I'm pretty sure, if you all knew the nature of the situation, you'd have little problem with it. I'm just asking for trust in us to handle it properly, and in the best interest of the community, not for personal gain or any such misappropriation. We are perfectly capable of making proper decisions regarding any potential surplus donations. We will never use any "extra" funds for anything other than continuing to support our game for this community. In my mind, paying off depts from a previous, but very flawed attempt, is part and parcel to that goal. I don't separate it out into this set verses that set, etc. We have a total balance sheet for the year, and I'm working on making that end up in the black, which we will release to the community directly when we've got there.


My original post that started us down this road:
Jordan wrote:
The second issue I have is that I have heard that there is excess funding figured into this $5000 and will be used to help pay for V-set 3. I don't want to sound skeptical, but there are no guarantees that there will be a V-set 3. I guess I am a "Plan ahead, but only take one step at a time" kind of guy. If this is accurate, this is setting ourselves up for another potential funding scandal.


the response I got that satisfied my concerns...

Ruhk wrote:
The total goal of donations was based on cost quotes from the printer and based on the amount we were short from DotF.
Where did you hear that there is excess planned? Every dollar raised is going towards the printed and distribution of R&R/BoT/EDD.


and posts that followed after I donated...

billiv15 wrote:
Yep, having extra money will not hurt in anyway. It will allow us to print more of these sets or work on other side projects throughout the year as well.


billiv15 wrote:
Several individuals paid out of their own pockets a good deal of money to finish DotF. I am not going to say how much this was or who did it or why, just out of privacy concerns, I'd rather keep it private. Needless to say, we will pay them back as we can. We owe these extremely generous people that. Some will come from extra money generated for V-sets, most from Gencon fundraising we think. The rest of the extra money from both things, will go towards new stuff for the community in the fall, including what I hope will be the return of league kits in the fall/spring for local groups.


As I said in an earlier post:
Jordan wrote:
If you were using this money to fund side projects and future sets that should have been disclosed in the initial post. While I am not accusing anybody of any wrongdoing or planning on doing anything inappropriate, this is certainly the type of information that I wanted before I donated a days pay to this project.


Concerning the people that donated to original V-Set to get it finished, I have no issue with taking up a donation to pay them back. I do have issue with using funds that are being donated for the production of this V-Set to do that. I suggest for a third time that we hold a separate fund-raiser for that purpose. That would however require telling the community the amount that was donated as a whole by these individuals. (no names or amounts by a singular person). Something I am baffled that the community is being kept in the dark about. I know that if I had known about the shortage of funds in the original set I would have contributed a little more to make sure it was completed. To refer to the money that these people took from there own pockets of their own free will, as a debt owed by the people that donated towards this set seems to be a very tricky and sticky area. Especially since it was not disclosed in the original post asking for funds for this project, using the money we are discussing to "pay them back", would be by definition misappropriation. You do not have to use this money for your own personal gain for this to be true. To use it for any other project, purpose or any other word you choose to use, other than what was originally defined when asking for a donation is misappropriation.

I know that you and the rest of the design team have done nothing illegal and have not said that you have. I have said that if certain actions that have been posted in this thread take place, then you run the risk of that being the case, or at least being perceived as so. It seems to me that you are seeing one word and reacting to it. I ask that you take my comments and questions in context. As I said before:
Jordan wrote:
I would like to add that I am not a lawyer, but please consult one before you spend any of the money raised for this project on anything other than it's original stated purpose.


I want to make this perfectly clear, this is not anything personal with the design team or any other person involved in any of the projects. I am not posting to ruffle feathers or discourage the design team or anybody else involved in this or any future projects. This is not a matter of me or anybody else trusting the design team. I do trust that you have the best intentions. I am saying that there are specific ways that situations like this should be handled. All I am asking for is that since there is no clear mission statement about the use of these funds, that you then take a vote about how the funds be used and not assume that everyone will be just fine with whatever you decide. There is a reason I designate which charity my money gets funneled to, when I donate to the United Way. I do not agree with how all the organizations supported by the United way use the their funds.

I hope that this is my last post on this matter and intend to not bring up any further comments or questions concerning these matters. At least until the matters have been decided on and acted on.


When the attacks for my comments come, and I am sure they will come, please keep in mind...I made no personal attacks. I simply explained my concerns and gave examples to back up those concerns and even attempted to provide other possible solutions.

Also remember that as I have said before, just because you do not agree with my point of view, it doesn't mean my point of view is wrong. In my eyes this is not an issue of trust. It is an issue of procedure.

I will quote Obi-Wan Kenobi again, "You must do what you feel is right, of course."


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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 11:38 pm 
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Look - it's real simple.

There's a lot of costs to printing these sets. Nobody is profiting on the design team.

$50 is the recommended donation amount. That will guarantee you all 3 sets.

If there is surplus, it goes to either paying off debt from the last set, or toward the next project. It all goes back into the community.

This time around we are sure that nobody is pocketing any money. (Not saying that is what happened last time, I'm just saying that everything is very transparent this time)


I have no idea why anyone would be upset that surplus money may go toward the next set. This is guaranteeing this game's continued survival.

There's no better spent money in the SWM community right now.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:43 am 
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As a member of the community not involved with the design, production, collection of donations, or distribution (other than being a pointman) of either the previous set or the pending one, I am fully satisfied with the explanations and answers by those who are in charge of managing donations that the money is going where it should ultimately go: back into the community so that sets can be paid for and more can be made. I don't see any other issues there, and don't understand why we're being derailed here. Good points made; good points taken; let's move on.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:17 am 
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Clearly Jordan none of us are as smart as you or have spent as much time contemplating every minutia of detail about organizing donations the way you have. We are doing the best we can and constantly nitpicking and bickering with us in public really doesn't accomplish anything except make everything more difficult. No matter how much you may say that is not your intention to derail the effort, it certainly is what you are doing.

There was a better way for you to handle your concerns and I for one will not respond directly to you any further.

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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:30 am 
Intelligence Operative
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I think Jordan has some good points legally and the biggest thing is there was a lot of lost trust after the dnemiller scandal. I for one am out $100 from his "money mishandling". Now I made a big leap of faith trusting the new trifecta of designers and will continue to do so trusting that the funds will be used to further the game I love. I agree with Jordan's point about specific wording and as much information as possible. I still don't know what reall happened with Dnemiller. But still i trust you guys.


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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:37 am 
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GeneralGrievous wrote:
I think Jordan has some good points legally and the biggest thing is there was a lot of lost trust after the dnemiller scandal.


I get that. I really do. This is why we have been a lot more up front about how things are going. None of us (or if there was anyone it would surprise me) knew what was happening with the printing of DotF until something had to be done to deal with it.

Quote:
I for one am out $100 from his "money mishandling". Now I made a big leap of faith trusting the new trifecta of designers and will continue to do so trusting that the funds will be used to further the game I love. I agree with Jordan's point about specific wording and as much information as possible. I still don't know what reall happened with Dnemiller. But still i trust you guys.


This is all a learning process for us, and along with trust we really need patience. Criticizing a series of initial posts before we've even got the cards rolling off the printing press is very premature, but I do understand the root of the sentiment.

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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:44 am 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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GeneralGrievous wrote:
I think Jordan has some good points legally and the biggest thing is there was a lot of lost trust after the dnemiller scandal. I for one am out $100 from his "money mishandling". Now I made a big leap of faith trusting the new trifecta of designers and will continue to do so trusting that the funds will be used to further the game I love. I agree with Jordan's point about specific wording and as much information as possible. I still don't know what reall happened with Dnemiller. But still i trust you guys.


Consider all of my posts in this thread to be attempts to be as clear and open as I feel we can be.

Look, the issue seems to be that I didn't in the very first post state anything about what we would do with a potential "surplus". That is true, I get it. But the thing is, when we made the choices to restart all of this in the way that we did, I'll be honest, none of us expected to have one. It was a pipedream at best. We talked vaguely about what we might do, but I don't think most of us expected to really have a surplus. I know I didn't expect it. So why would I have posted what we would do in case of something I didn't think would happen? As the funding got close, we started to talk about in our group, and in this thread, that's why you see some conflicting comments from us I suppose. Nothing has been fully decided on what to do with the potential surplus, other than we've promised to use all of it for these community projects, and for nothing else. In my mind, that includes paying off our first community project, DotF. Is is not the right thing to do, to pay off our debts before using it for other projects? Or at least making some headway on that debt?

We've been asked why we didn't make a separate thread for that debt. I do have an answer to that. Remember, that Dean did fundraising originally, then when it was clear he didn't get enough money, he ran a second fundraising thread in the spring. I did not want to come out of the gate, in the midst of the Dean change over of all of this, and ask for a third donation thread for DotF, especially when I still to this day do not have the ability to account for the money in any way. I do not have the actual numbers of money that came in, nor do I have the exact details of what went out, and where it went. None of us do. All we know, is that we had to pay off the final bill to protect our ability to do this again, and individuals stepped up to do so. We wanted to build trust in the community in our new group as soon as possible, so we took steps to ensure we could rebuild it, which I think we have done, and will continue to do. As I said before, if anyone has a problem with us using part of a potential surplus that we did not expect, and therefore did not post originally direct plans for, to pay off some of our debt, then we will not do so. So far, all I've seen is Dan objecting, and that isn't a representative part of the community. Many other people have told us to pay it off first. We are tentatively planning to do both things. Pay off some of DotF, but also order more sets than anticipated, so we can actually get out more cards than we planned to more players. I believe that to be the correct course of action. Nothing is set in stone however.

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