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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:57 pm 
Mandalore
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thereisnotry wrote:
[
Hey, that's really cool! It's probably the most creative solution I've seen suggested yet. :)


+1

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 6:15 pm 
Death Star Designers
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The issue is lobot. make a piece that makes playing lobot not work as well (ala CIO cs act control).

Superior deployment: your squad may not gain reinforcements, enemy reinforcements and reserves are halved.

You don't get them and enemy lobots/nute Strategies are out.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:53 am 
Master of the Order
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What's the feeling on this:

EM Jammers (At the start of each round, each non-living character is considered activated, save 11)

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 9:11 am 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
What's the feeling on this:

EM Jammers (At the start of each round, each non-living character is considered activated, save 11)



This is EXACTLY the kind of ability I was trying to articulate earlier. It doesn't totally nerf the 10 mouse dump but discourages abuse. Nicely done, Dennis.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 9:17 am 
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Pretty brutal on the separatists though. I know everyone hates IG-86s, but if you run them (or any other droids vital to your squad) against an EM Jammer and they get activated, you're toast.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 9:18 am 
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Well that will certainly discourage playing droids outright, but I don't think that was the intention.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:34 am 
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I like the idea behind the ability, but I think EM Jammer should either be an extremely expensive ability, drop to save 6, work only on Fringe Droids, or work only on droids of a certain point cost (or maybe work on droids whose Victory Points cost is 0?). Otherwise, the punishment the Seps take is disproportionate to the punishment other factions who don't rely as heavily on droids will take.


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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:51 am 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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or give it like 30 hp once per game you can active the jammer and every round after that the piece loses 10 hps.


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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:56 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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Or it only affects droids costing 3 pts or less; the only piece other than mice that would be affected is a BD in a Gha squad....

...Really, though, I'm not sure it's mice that are the problem. If we work in a mouse-activator, then people will go back to Ugs and Rodians; I think what would be more helpful is a "Fodder Activator" piece, which activates all enemy characters costing 4 pts or less within 12 squares....

...But then people would learn to keep their empty fodder activation pieces at the back, and the only thing we'd gain is the removal of mouse-walls.
:roll:
Instead, I think that something like the Mando CIO as a Fringe piece would do the trick. Cost it at 14/15 (to allow for Ugs/Mice or Caamasi/Salacious), make sure it can survive a gallop or strafe (ie, 50 hp). Having this piece available through the often-used Lobot would give every tempo control squad a reason to second-guess its strategy. So often, people use Lobot to bring in 6 activations (or 10 if they have Gha), and that's simply for activation help. I think the fringe CIO would do the job even better when you're against Rebels/NR/Seps/Imps. And when you're not against those factions, then you can bring in whatever you normally would. As always, the faction-specific version (ie, Mando CIO) should be cheaper and better, but I think the CE is so useful that it should be available to all factions.

Edit: There are other ways to make the piece survivable too:
-Give it Diplomat and 10/20 hp, so that you need to be careful with it, but it won't get killed on the Gallop/Strafe/Barrage attacks.
-If it has Diplomat, possibly make the CE require LOS to an enemy. This would likely make the piece ineffective, because against many tempo control squads, you can't get LOS to their pieces until after the first big strike; playtesting would need to bear it out.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:25 pm 
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I'm not much a fan of more pieces that Lobot can bring in. It's gotten to the point that you basically get to build your squad after you've already seen your opponent's squad, especially if Nute's in the squad too. I'd like to not see it get even more abusive. Jaster being able to bring in the CIO is nice enough, we don't need a Fringe option.


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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:35 pm 
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Or work on small based non-living. I still like the concept.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:04 am 
Death Star Designers
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We dont want to punish people for playing activation control, thats not the answer. Again lobot is more usful for doing stuff like bodyguards and extra damage dealers. Make it not such a good option to run lobot and a lot of this will go away. Example (rebels vs bastila, act control vs CIO, grievious and lancer vs crumb and a bg) natural evelution of the meta needs to happen, not "I hate mouse droids and gha naught so you should be pinished for liking/playing it.

I personally don't care for it either, but you know what? It wins games. I like to win and so do others so it's going to keep getting played till something else is done about it.

SA battle strategy "enemy fringe characters who are added to your opponents squad through reinforcements cost 2 more then their printed cost (they do not gain report as well) would you run lobot if that is flying around? 5 point mouse droids? 7 point caamasi nobles? No thanks I'll just play an r7 and add in good stuff to my team to start with.

You can do it that easily too. Give that to one faction and it'll work. CIO and bastilla do their thing pretty good, this guy could do the same.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 2:37 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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Okay, but is the 10-mouse dump really so much of a problem? I think it actually only masks the much deeper problem of tempo control pieces, which then use that 10-mouse dump to devastating effect. You could use Gha/Lobot/Mice in a Revan Sith Lord squad, for example, but if you come up against a tempo control faction, it really doesn't help at all. The only factions that use the 10-mouse dump are the ones with Tempo Control pieces.

We need to attack the disease, not the symptom, and it's the tempo control pieces that are the disease, IMHO. Increasing the presence of Flames/Nades/Missiles will easily take care of the mouse-wall problem.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:28 pm 
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Darth_Jim wrote:
Grand Moff Boris wrote:
What's the feeling on this:

EM Jammers (At the start of each round, each non-living character is considered activated, save 11)



This is EXACTLY the kind of ability I was trying to articulate earlier. It doesn't totally nerf the 10 mouse dump but discourages abuse. Nicely done, Dennis.


Not to mention quite a few of the Huges, like the Snowspeeders and AT-STs. Which is very bad.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:26 am 
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Segastorm wrote:
barzillai wrote:
There are lots of ways to dial this in for balance: require the player using Scrounge to make a save 11, limit it to non-unique droids or to enemy droids or to droids worth X points or less, etc.


I think it should be limited to enemy droids that are 10 points or less, or else seps will never be played again....


What about the player using Scrounge must roll a d20, with a result greater than the cost of the droid? 3pt Mouse Droids are easy, 20pt Bodyguards are immune.


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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:55 am 
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I think really two more factions just need a Arica,Yodabuck,lancer,Anakin. I think the mandos need like a Blaster cannon that can do a burst attack and maybe a way to move him. Then the OR get some type of Force power. Then we add a Fringe anti droid type piece too. I think things like this will bring the game back to 15-20 act squads again. Yes the 25+ act squads will still be a problem but not as much. we need 3-5 pieces not just one.


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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:32 pm 
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Communications Jamming (Characters brought in after set-up may not activate)

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:45 pm 
Death Star Designers
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Communications Jamming (Characters brought in after set-up may not activate)


Wouldnt that nerf the Imperial piece swap you guys added from DotF. I guess you could just expand it out with character brought in with reinforcements.



What about something situational/creative:

Home Turf: If you win map roll your opponent may not adjust the amount of characters activated each phase and their reserves and reinforcements equal 0.

Or

Home turf: If you win map roll you choose 1of the following opponent may not adjust the amount of characters activated each phase or their reserves and reinforcements equal 0.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:50 pm 
Master of the Order
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Azavander wrote:
Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Communications Jamming (Characters brought in after set-up may not activate)


Wouldnt that nerf the Imperial piece swap you guys added from DotF. I guess you could just expand it out with character brought in with reinforcements.


Yep, it would nerf it. And I don't have a problem with that, personally.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:51 pm 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Communications Jamming (Characters brought in after set-up may not activate)


...May not activate ever? I think that's way too strong. Abilities like that (and a few have been suggested) push all Reserves pieces even further out of play, and 2 were just made in R&R (Vader and Dooku). There isn't an overall problem with Reserves/Reinforcements in my opinion; there's a very specific problem with Lobot+Gha+10 Mice. Although even that is really just a symptom of a few other problems (how good Mouse Droids are for their cost and how important it is to outactivate).

If you want to do something about Lobot+Gha+10 Mice, do something about that. Don't screw anything else up. My favorite solution is something that reduces Reinforcements by half. That allows the Reinforcements player to still get SOMETHING out of it, but cuts the 10 Mice down to 5, which is much more reasonable.

EDIT: Just realized that your Communications Jamming doesn't even effect Reinforcements at all, since that's during setup, not after setup. So all you're doing is hurting Pellaeon and Reserves characters.... I must have missed the memo where they're hurting the game. ;)

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Last edited by Echo on Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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