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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:04 am 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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dreadtech wrote:
:saber: 8-)


I know that a full set list for RnR has been given to help member get figures if they with to make customs. When will a list be available for BOT and the Epic set? for same reason.

As for any money over, I would prefer it gets put towards set 3 to bring the total amount need down for that set. rather than put towards side products


BoT should be coming soon, probably by the end of the month. Epic set list will be released about a week before Gencon, so end of July.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:35 am 
Master of the Order
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billiv15 wrote:
dreadtech wrote:
:saber: 8-)


I know that a full set list for RnR has been given to help member get figures if they with to make customs. When will a list be available for BOT and the Epic set? for same reason.

As for any money over, I would prefer it gets put towards set 3 to bring the total amount need down for that set. rather than put towards side products


BoT should be coming soon, probably by the end of the month. Epic set list will be released about a week before Gencon, so end of July.


Not to mention, a good chunk of BoT is known, if not all exact names and RMs. Some of the RMs are known, or obvious.


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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 6:08 pm 
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Greetings Force Users!
Thanks for everything you guys are doing for the SWM community! It's certainly a tremendous accomplishment to do what has been done with such limited resources, and to to do it at the high level that the first set was at, and where these 3 new sets will be, is truly amazing. We ...have fought gallantly, worthy of recognition in the archives of the Jedi Order. -Count Dooku to Mace Windu and the remaining living Jedi of the "Geonosis Strike Team", on Geonosis.

I have just a few questions regarding set funding. I was wondering, 1) is their a specific dollar amount as to how much is owed to people regarding the "DOTF" set, and if so, is this money owed to specific individuals in the community and is current/future donations going toward paying these people back? In addition, how is is decided that x amount of $ is going to payback people and x amount of $ is going to current and future projects?; I want to preface this next question by saying I hope that there are new sets for years to come; 2) If there is extra money/donations that SWM Gamers receives, what happens to this money raised/saved for a future set, if, God forbid, it's decided that no more sets will be produced?

Thanks again to everyone involved in keeping the flame going on our most beloved game. Long live SWM! May the Force be with us all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DM :emperor:


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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:32 pm 
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Alrighty - donated $100 for a complete set of all 3 and the rest of the cash goes toward whatever it needs to.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:06 am 
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I just donated $420 on behalf of my playgroup for 7 sets of Renegades and Rogues, Battle of Theed Palace and the Epic Duo cards.

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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:26 am 
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darthmaim wrote:
Greetings Force Users!
Thanks for everything you guys are doing for the SWM community! It's certainly a tremendous accomplishment to do what has been done with such limited resources, and to to do it at the high level that the first set was at, and where these 3 new sets will be, is truly amazing. We ...have fought gallantly, worthy of recognition in the archives of the Jedi Order. -Count Dooku to Mace Windu and the remaining living Jedi of the "Geonosis Strike Team", on Geonosis.

I have just a few questions regarding set funding. I was wondering, 1) is their a specific dollar amount as to how much is owed to people regarding the "DOTF" set, and if so, is this money owed to specific individuals in the community and is current/future donations going toward paying these people back? In addition, how is is decided that x amount of $ is going to payback people and x amount of $ is going to current and future projects?; I want to preface this next question by saying I hope that there are new sets for years to come; 2) If there is extra money/donations that SWM Gamers receives, what happens to this money raised/saved for a future set, if, God forbid, it's decided that no more sets will be produced?

Thanks again to everyone involved in keeping the flame going on our most beloved game. Long live SWM! May the Force be with us all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DM :emperor:


Several individuals paid out of their own pockets a good deal of money to finish DotF. I am not going to say how much this was or who did it or why, just out of privacy concerns, I'd rather keep it private. Needless to say, we will pay them back as we can. We owe these extremely generous people that. Some will come from extra money generated for V-sets, most from Gencon fundraising we think. The rest of the extra money from both things, will go towards new stuff for the community in the fall, including what I hope will be the return of league kits in the fall/spring for local groups. We intend to keep making sets as long as we as a community want them. But if/when we ever get to the end, and if we have extra money at that time, paypal allows us to directly return any donation made, well after it has been given. So if we reach that point, we can give the money back very easily.

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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:01 pm 
Unnamed Stormtrooper
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Just donated and didn't see any additional spot for comments until it was too late (thought it would show up after clicking). I apologize for the inconvenience. I will PM Bill with my info. Thanks so much for all your hard work!!!

-Cody Reeves-


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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:03 pm 
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VB_Jedi wrote:
Just donated and didn't see any additional spot for comments until it was too late (thought it would show up after clicking). I apologize for the inconvenience. I will PM Bill with my info. Thanks so much for all your hard work!!!

-Cody Reeves-

Thanks for the PM, Just make sure your pointman knows the information you sent me as well. I'm not sure who it is, please go check that forum. For your buddies without money, have them all donate what they can, and we will try to get them all the sets that they want as best we can.

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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:12 pm 
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6184!

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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:40 pm 
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Bill, can you the comunity what the total IOU is from the first set?

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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:03 pm 
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Donation made for Janesville, WI group:

Tim (full amount)
Mark (full amount)
Steve (full amount)
Logan (partial amount)
Paul (partiall amount)

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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:51 pm 
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TreebeardTheEnt wrote:
Bill, can you the comunity what the total IOU is from the first set?


I normally don't speak for other people, but the answer is no, he probably can't. Or rather, he shouldn't. That is all I will say about it.

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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:15 pm 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
TreebeardTheEnt wrote:
Bill, can you the community what the total IOU is from the first set?


I normally don't speak for other people, but the answer is no, he probably can't. Or rather, he shouldn't. That is all I will say about it.

I don't understand your answer. Why student the community know a dollar amount? I don't think it would be appropriate to name the person or people that stepped up to fill in the gap, but the debt should be public knowledge so that the community can work together to get the balance sheet in the black (well actually to zero). Saying that there is an IOU for $XXX, and the plan is to do Y and Z about is is the type of answer that will keep people trusting you. Saying there is a debt and that is all we are going to say gets too political for my taste.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:21 pm 
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Because I don't feel like the community shoud be compelled, even unintentionally, to pay those people back for their generosity, and that is where this line of conversation takes us. But you already know that, as your post indicates. :)

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 10:20 pm 
Unnamed Wookiee
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It has been a little while since I have logged on and checked this thread. i thought my concerns had been put to bed. I am going to cover several posts since my last visit so please read my whole post before you decide to roast me on an open spit.

billiv15 wrote:
Several individuals paid out of their own pockets a good deal of money to finish DotF. I am not going to say how much this was or who did it or why, just out of privacy concerns, I'd rather keep it private. Needless to say, we will pay them back as we can. We owe these extremely generous people that. Some will come from extra money generated for V-sets, most from Gencon fundraising we think. The rest of the extra money from both things, will go towards new stuff for the community in the fall, including what I hope will be the return of league kits in the fall/spring for local groups. We intend to keep making sets as long as we as a community want them. But if/when we ever get to the end, and if we have extra money at that time, paypal allows us to directly return any donation made, well after it has been given. So if we reach that point, we can give the money back very easily.


Bill,

This is exactly the type of thing I asked about when I made my previous posts. This was not disclosed at that time. If any money that was raised for this set is used on any other projects without that being disclosed before the funds were raised and especially after being asked directly for this type of information and being told that all funds will be used only for this project, would potentially be considered misappropriation.

This issue may have ramifications much larger than you may realize. Misappropriation is a felony and it doesn't matter if you feel that it is for the greater good for the SW Minis gaming community.

While I and every other SW Minis player appreciate the efforts and the fact that there are un-named people that stepped up to cover the lack of funds from the previous set, it is my understanding, you cannot legally take funds raised for the explicit purpose of producing this set (even if there is excess) to pay those people back I believe this would constitute embezzlement.(if they are involved in the current project) If you want to take donations in an effort to pay those people back, then I am all for that and would be happy to donate, but I do not believe that you cannot legally do that from these funds.

Leshippy wrote:
The printing cost and the shipping from the printer to the distribution committee is about $4200. So that leaves $800 or there abouts to cover the shipping of all the V-sets. I know you are thinking this "aren't they distributing most of them at GenCon?" Yes they are going to distribute many sets at GenCon.


Les, I should have followed up on this earlier, but are we paying for shipping to people that are getting sets without donating? I certainly understand not having the money to donate, but if you are getting a free set shipped to you, don't you think you should be at least paying for the cost of shipping. I do business on Ebay all the time and can go the USPS website to calculate shipping. This group should be able to do the same.

Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Because I don't feel like the community shoud be compelled, even unintentionally, to pay those people back for their generosity, and that is where this line of conversation takes us. But you already know that, as your post indicates.


Boris,

I think this is an oversimplification of what TreebeardTheEnt was saying. I believe that he simply wants to know how much of our funds might be diverted to pay the people in question back.


The issue here is complete transparency in how our donations are going to be used. I know that is why I started posting about this issue.

I would like to add that I am not a lawyer, but please consult one before you spend any of the money raised for this project on anything other than it's original stated purpose.

"You must do what you feel is right, of course."
―Obi-Wan to Luke

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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:25 am 
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Jordan wrote:
Boris,

I think this is an oversimplification of what TreebeardTheEnt was saying. I believe that he simply wants to know how much of our funds might be diverted to pay the people in question back.


No it's really not an "oversimplification" and your statement here is exactly why I don't think Bill should discuss the issue, and quite honestly it should never have been brought up at all. No money is being "diverted to pay the people in question back." None of them have ever asked to be paid back, either - not to my knowledge, at least. In fact, the notion of the phrase "paid back" repulses me a little, and I suspect it probably does those who contributed.

The money is going to be used the way it was intended, for R&R. Yes there were some ideas kicked around about what other nice things could be offered to the community but if that is going to be a problem or create hard feelings or even legal complaints, well then we won't do that. No one is setting out to "misappropriate" or "misrepresent" the funding, and I for one would refund every penny and stop the printing right now rather than argue with someone over whether an extra $1 left over from their share of donations was "embezzled."

It's fine if you don't want your resources that were left over because there was an "over-donation" on side projects meant to benefit the community but I take offense at the suggestion that the design team are committing some form of criminal act here. We have been nothing but up front with the community and I don't think there is a single one among us who wouldn't pay out of his or her own pocket to avoid even the appearance of wrong doing.

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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:30 am 
Unnamed Wookiee
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
It's fine if you don't want your resources that were left over because there was an "over-donation" on side projects meant to benefit the community but I take offense at the suggestion that the design team are committing some form of criminal act here. We have been nothing but up front with the community and I don't think there is a single one among us who wouldn't pay out of his or her own pocket to avoid even the appearance of wrong doing.


I have not accused anybody of any wrongdoing. I have very simply explained that if the money is used for anything other than it's original stated intended purpose, you run the risk of that either being the case or it being perceived that way.

As far as being upfront with the community, I asked about extra funding being applied to future projects and was told:

Ruhk wrote:
The total goal of donations was based on cost quotes from the printer and based on the amount we were short from DotF.
Where did you hear that there is excess planned? Every dollar raised is going towards the printed and distribution of R&R/BoT/EDD.


Then over the next few days saw posts from Bill saying:

billiv15 wrote:
Yep, having extra money will not hurt in anyway. It will allow us to print more of these sets or work on other side projects throughout the year as well.


and

billiv15 wrote:
Several individuals paid out of their own pockets a good deal of money to finish DotF. I am not going to say how much this was or who did it or why, just out of privacy concerns, I'd rather keep it private. Needless to say, we will pay them back as we can. We owe these extremely generous people that. Some will come from extra money generated for V-sets, most from Gencon fundraising we think. The rest of the extra money from both things, will go towards new stuff for the community in the fall, including what I hope will be the return of league kits in the fall/spring for local groups.


I do not think anybody involved has any intent of dubious action and only have the best interests of the SW Gaming community in mind, but I and every other person that donates to the project have the right (and should know) before we donate what the plans are for that money. I do not think this is too much to ask.


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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:50 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
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Jordan wrote:
I do not think anybody involved has any intent of dubious action and only have the best interests of the SW Gaming community in mind, but I and every other person that donates to the project have the right (and should know) before we donate what the plans are for that money. I do not think this is too much to ask.


The thing is, we as a community have now met our goal. That means there could potentially be extra money (assuming the budgeted projections are accurate). If you don't like it that some of your donation could potentially be used for something that you didn't originally intend, then you don't have to donate. Nobody is twisting your arm. The design team is being completely open and honest about its intentions and plans, so I don't know why you're worrying so much. The reason they're not clearly describing their plans for the leftover money is because they don't know all the necessary variables yet (exactly how much money will be left, exactly what project to undertake for the community, etc). Once the variables are known and there are firmer plans, I'm sure we'll hear more from them.

We're a COMMUNITY (a very good one, at that!)...and every community is built on trust. If you don't trust those in leadership of any given community, then go find another one or learn to trust more freely.

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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:01 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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Dan if we charged you for shipping, you would then be upset when I physically hand you a set like I did for DOTF. Which didn't cost anything except my gas to drive to Kokomo. Of course if you would like to pay for the shipping and then pay for my gas to get to Kokomo I would not complain.

Please note that the shipping is very complicated. There are several location like we have here in IN where everything (20+ sets) are shipped to one person and then that person hands stuff out. Put there are other locations where there are just one to three people in the state on these boards and they still have to get there sets.

I think the 20+ sets used flat rate shipping from the USPS where you buy the box and pay $4 to ship. So the shipping for the large groups is small per set where shipping overseas and traking it is very expensive. Shipping one set to BFE, Idaho is in the middle.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:26 pm 
Unnamed Wookiee
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thereisnotry wrote:
The design team is being completely open and honest about its intentions and plans, so I don't know why you're worrying so much. The reason they're not clearly describing their plans for the leftover money is because they don't know all the necessary variables yet (exactly how much money will be left, exactly what project to undertake for the community, etc). Once the variables are known and there are firmer plans, I'm sure we'll hear more from them.

We're a COMMUNITY (a very good one, at that!)...and every community is built on trust. If you don't trust those in leadership of any given community, then go find another one or learn to trust more freely.


Trust is a two way street. I am expected to trust that the money I donate is used in a responsible manner. I ask that I and every other person that donates be trusted with all potential plans, thoughts, or ideas for those funds. I don't think it to be a trust issue when I spot an inconsistency in the information that has been presented and ask about that perceived inconsistency.

I directly asked about funding other projects with any potential excess funds and was told,
Ruhk wrote:
Every dollar raised is going towards the printed and distribution of R&R/BoT/EDD."
Now I am seeing that this was not accurate and there are plans for future projects and side projects. (assuming that there are funds remaining).

Remember that just because you do not agree with my point of view, it doesn't make my point of view wrong. This is not a matter of trust. It is a matter of principle.

I knew that bringing this up would upset some people and potentially create some animosity that may leave me feeling unwelcome at Gencon, (I am already considering not going in fear of being labeled a malcontent and being treated as an outcast) but felt that sitting silently would be wrong. I clearly stated:
Jordan wrote:
I have not accused anybody of any wrongdoing. I have very simply explained that if the money is used for anything other than it's original stated intended purpose, you run the risk of that either being the case or it being perceived that way.


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