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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 10:39 am 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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We knew this change would present several challenges. Just know guys, we will do everything we can to make it work. Just do whatever you can now to get your money back, and if you in the end can't, we will work something out for you. I leave for a trip at the end of the week, but when I return, I will ask for anyone who wasn't able to get their money back to PM me and we will go from there. That will be on about June 1st.

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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 10:41 am 
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Unfortunate news.

4. I'm all for optimism, but this goal looks pretty insanely ambitious. Given what's occurred it doesn't seem like a good time to expand. Is there are backup plan for the case where the the goal is only partially met? (ie. While the other things sound nice, the only thing I really want is R&R. I think most of the community would feel the same. I don't want to see these other things complicate or doom the R&R print run. I'd dump this new epic set in a heartbeat--print 20 manually for the Gencon tourney and everyone else interested can print their own. How much would R&R alone cost? etc.)

8. The status of Gamers itself was not mentioned. I believe it's also solely owned by Dean. What's the situation with the site?

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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 10:51 am 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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NickName wrote:
Unfortunate news.

4. I'm all for optimism, but this goal looks pretty insanely ambitious. Given what's occurred it doesn't seem like a good time to expand. Is there are backup plan for the case where the the goal is only partially met? (ie. While the other things sound nice, the only thing I really want is R&R. I think most of the community would feel the same. I don't want to see these other things complicate or doom the R&R print run. I'd dump this new epic set in a heartbeat--print 20 manually for the Gencon tourney and everyone else interested can print their own. How much would R&R alone cost? etc.)

8. The status of Gamers itself was not mentioned. I believe it's also solely owned by Dean. What's the situation with the site?


It is ambitious. We do have some alternate possibilities if the funding doesn't come through in full, for example ordering less than the 600 sets we ordered for DotF, lowering our Epic order, fronting the cost ourselves and continuing to accept donations after we print to pay ourselves back, etc and finally paying more of the shipping ourselves. We also have some other plans to raise money through Gencon ideas (like I'm thinking of having special T-shirts made and selling them at a small profit). Also, some of us are planning to contribute additional funds through things like paying the pointman shipping out of our own pocket, etc. The expansion of the goal was entirely necessary to actually cover the real costs of this adventure.

As for Gamers, you know about what we know. The site is paid up through 2012, but if something should happen, we will move briefly to Bloomilk, then reopen under a new site owner. Plans are in place, but all we can do is move forward with what we can right now.

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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 6:21 pm 
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Maybe I overestimated the reaction, but it seemed like quite a lot of money was donated after the last set came out when it was announced it was really short. I hope if that needs to happen we will get a similar response.

Anyways, donated $60 for the 3 sets. Looking forward to RaR, BoT and Epic!


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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 8:17 pm 
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AdmiralMotti89 wrote:
Maybe I overestimated the reaction, but it seemed like quite a lot of money was donated after the last set came out when it was announced it was really short. I hope if that needs to happen we will get a similar response.

Anyways, donated $60 for the 3 sets. Looking forward to RaR, BoT and Epic!


Not to put you on the spot here Motti but...
What happens when someone barely pays more than what has been outlined as an appropriate amount for a single full set and requests 3 complete sets?

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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 8:22 pm 
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R5Don4 wrote:
AdmiralMotti89 wrote:
Maybe I overestimated the reaction, but it seemed like quite a lot of money was donated after the last set came out when it was announced it was really short. I hope if that needs to happen we will get a similar response.

Anyways, donated $60 for the 3 sets. Looking forward to RaR, BoT and Epic!


Not to put you on the spot here Motti but...
What happens when someone barely pays more than what has been outlined as an appropriate amount for a single full set and requests 3 complete sets?


I think he meant the 3 sets that are part of the package - RaR, BoT, and Epic. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 8:36 pm 
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Ah, I stand corrected, I read it wrong. The question still remains though. While compiling info from the old thread, there were a few situations where this was the case.

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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 9:00 pm 
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R5Don4 wrote:
Fantastic news Bill. Thank you for posting this notice in such great detail. And much thanks to the entire SWMGamers team for doing so much to keep the best game ever made going strong. $100 Donated for a double complete set.


I didn't see where the comments field when I made the transaction although I was looking for it, so the $100 transaction is missing the details of my screen name and the details of how many sets I am requesting. I hope this won't be a problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 9:37 pm 
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I'm all in to donate whatever I can, as soon as I can afford it, so please don't get the wrong idea, but couldn't the site refund through paypal instead of having to file a claim with paypal. I know I'm ignorant to a lot of details, and I don't want to know, But would that be possible. The only reason I say that is because being a builder, a lot of my clients pay me thru paypal. If you already have a list of those who donated, it seems this might work? Just a question , Like I said, I'm all in and will do whatever I can!


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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 10:05 pm 
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Yeah Don,"the" is the key word there ;). No problem.

And yes, good point. I think it's important that people think that there really is no quantity discount. Wanting 3 (IMO) shouldn't mean you get them for 40 each.

Now I realize a lot has been thought of already, but maybe it wouldn't be a bad thing to require 50 per set and people who donate less be put on a less prioritized list or something, especially for people who want multiples (of course how do we really know if someone asking for one for their friend really has that friend) Just thinking aloud.


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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 4:03 am 
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AdmiralMotti89 wrote:
Now I realize a lot has been thought of already, but maybe it wouldn't be a bad thing to require 50 per set and people who donate less be put on a less prioritized list or something, especially for people who want multiples (of course how do we really know if someone asking for one for their friend really has that friend) Just thinking aloud.


"require 50 per set" is the definition of the word "selling," and we are NOT selling the cards. When DotF was done, the idea was to ask the community to support paying for its printing. But not enough did, as we recently discovered. So we are trying something else this time around to encourage more people to donate. It really isn't fair for someone who donated to the cost to not get a set. Conversely, what good does it really do to call this a community project if one person donates the cost of 3 sets and then quickly demands 3 sets for him/herself?

I guess what I am asking is that those who can donate more than the suggested minimum (which as I understand it is based on the cost divided by the number being printed), please help others in the community who cannot afford to donate. DotF had a 600-set print run and we barely had enough to cover everyone that donated and wanted one. This time around, we are printing a bigger set with some extras, and so the cost is a little higher. No, I'm not going to say how much because I am not directly involved in that.

EDIT: One other idea being tossed around is for pointmen to ask the people they distribute sets to to donate as well. Say a venue takes 8 sets. If the pointman for that venue collects $20 from each person, that's $160 that can go into the pool. You wouldn't even have to collect it all at once.

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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 7:41 am 
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qvos wrote:
I'm all in to donate whatever I can, as soon as I can afford it, so please don't get the wrong idea, but couldn't the site refund through paypal instead of having to file a claim with paypal. I know I'm ignorant to a lot of details, and I don't want to know, But would that be possible. The only reason I say that is because being a builder, a lot of my clients pay me thru paypal. If you already have a list of those who donated, it seems this might work? Just a question , Like I said, I'm all in and will do whatever I can!



I think the problem with that idea is that Dean is the only one, as the site's sole owner, who could do that. Since he is more or less unavailable due to personal reasons, even if you did request he send it back, chances are he wouldnt be responding in a timely manner if at all.

As for the quantity discount thing, didnt Bill already say that if you are ordering in groups you could knock like $5 off per set cause of the combined shipping?

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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 7:43 am 
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I guess we have different definitions. I was thinking something like a $50+ donation per set you ask asked guarantees that you get all the sets you asked for (within reason I suppose; asking for 10 sets might require justification). A $50 donation for a set guarantees you a set, while $40 depends on other people to fill in that $10.

I'm not sure it's such a bad thing to say that donating less that $50 per set means you might not get all the sets you asked for. Plenty of places taking donations have different ranges and awards based on those ranges.

So for example, (I'm just making up numbers here)
10 people donate $70 per set
100 people donate $60 per set
100 donate $50 per set.

Those 210 get put on the "clear" list
10 people donate $45
50 people donate $40 per set
30 donate $30
10 donate $20
10 do not donate but want sets.

From the people who doated extra, there are $1200 extra
First priority are those who donated $45, who need to make up $5 (10x5=50), 1200-50=1150
Then there are the $40 (50x10=500), 1150-500= 650
$30 (30x20=600) 650-600=50
$20 (10x30=300) 50-300= -250
So the people who donated $20 have to wait unti l $250 is raised before being put on the clear list)
(sorry if the math’s off hope the idea is clear)

So after the donations close, we will know how short we are. Additional donations can be asked for at that time to help cover the people who donated less than $50. If the donations do not come through, the people who are lower on the list do not get their sets, as unfortunate as that is; at least until they donate more, and shipping would need to be handled on an individual basis (which can be a headache)
The reason why I think this is a good idea is BECAUSE it’s a donation. If you donate $20, thank you very, very much for your donation, but you getting a set is not guaranteed. If they were buying you would be obligated to send them one if you siad whatever they pay is fine. They are not buying anything, so there’s no reasonable expectation to get a set if you donate less than the recommended amount.

A lot of this gets complicated by shipping to pointmen, but I think that can be worked out. Anyways gotta go up to work, I’ll be back later.
Basically, Those who donate more than $50 do so knowing they are helping out people who donate less, and those who donate less know they depend on those who donate more to get their set.


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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 7:52 am 
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That might workm for the time being, but if you allow people to donate any amount that they choose with even a hint that they might be able to get a set for cheaper than the reccomended amount, at the end you will have people demanding their money back since they didnt get a set, and they wont be willing to donate at all the next time around.

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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 8:09 am 
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You both make good points. And I'm trying to do both things at once to a degree. Positively thinking, I have full convidence this community can raise the money I requested, even with the problems we've had. For distribution, we are prioritizing donors this time around, but even with that, I don't suspect it will be a serious issue. Asside from the insane time it's taken, with DotF it looks like everyone who donated has gotten a set (I think there are a couple in the process now as we finish up). So again, I don't think it's a long term issue to worry much about, but it is a part of this, which is why I set the amounts as I did.

As far as I'm concerned, if you donated the amount I asked for, you will get what you want one way or the other (unless we end up so far short that we decide not to print at all).

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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 8:15 am 
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Is the plan to have this completely funded in 45 days? So, I can tell our supporters that if it turns out we can not fund this adequately and have to cancel the print run then people can get their money back through a claim? or is there a plan for people who donate and the process goes longer than the allotted paypal time.

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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 8:24 am 
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If we do not reach the full funding goal we will still print something. We will ensure that those you donated do receive something as a thank you for supporting the community. Adjustments will be made, ie size of print run, overall quality.. R&R will print no mater what. If the funding goal is not made, it will cause us to question if it is worth continuing making v-sets and/or running gencon.

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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 8:29 am 
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Boba52 wrote:
Is the plan to have this completely funded in 45 days? So, I can tell our supporters that if it turns out we can not fund this adequately and have to cancel the print run then people can get their money back through a claim? or is there a plan for people who donate and the process goes longer than the allotted paypal time.


It depends on how far we get. We have options for printing less than 600 sets, and we can also print without the full funds if we think we will get there. We also have other plans in connection with the money we make at Gencon and so on. So it shouldn't be a worry.

As for if we decide not to print at all, there is a very simple method that paypal allows for returning funds. We will use that if necessary. People will not need to file a claim against us this time because we have 4 people who can access the account.

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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 10:47 am 
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Disturbed1 wrote:
qvos wrote:
I'm all in to donate whatever I can, as soon as I can afford it, so please don't get the wrong idea, but couldn't the site refund through paypal instead of having to file a claim with paypal. I know I'm ignorant to a lot of details, and I don't want to know, But would that be possible. The only reason I say that is because being a builder, a lot of my clients pay me thru paypal. If you already have a list of those who donated, it seems this might work? Just a question , Like I said, I'm all in and will do whatever I can!



I think the problem with that idea is that Dean is the only one, as the site's sole owner, who could do that. Since he is more or less unavailable due to personal reasons, even if you did request he send it back, chances are he wouldnt be responding in a timely manner if at all.

Exactly. Dean has been so busy with real life that he hasn't even logged onto Gamers since mid-April!


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 Post subject: Re: Very Important - V-Set Funding Thread. Please Read!!!!!
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 12:32 pm 
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