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 Post subject: Fixing Huges
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 1:41 pm 
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Alright this is made before seeing R&R set, so something in there could still solve the many problems huge face. With that in mind the one thing we can probably all agree on is other then the occasional X-1 or Snowspeeder, no one plays huges in a tournament setting.

Why?

1. They are huge, they occupy lots of space, hard to keep in cover or out of LOS and can be attacked by multiple people at once, as well as making it easier for opponents to use area weapons on your squad.
2. They are slow, try moving a piece without flight down any hallway, not on.
3. They are almost an autoloss against super stealth, being that the enemy can sit in cover just out of your reach or on the other side of the map and often because you can't squeeE through enemies or move into a small enough area you are slowly torn apart.
4. They are way overcosted judging on the three previous points, why pay so much for a huge when you get a better, smaller, faster, and more defensible piece for the same of less cost.

So options?

-boost with CEs and SAs
-errata the character type huge as being able to:
Huge, this character ignores low objects and/or rough terrain as cover when choosing targets
AND/OR this character gains Stable Footing: This character can move into terrain that slows movement (such as difficult terrain and low objects) without paying the extra movement cost
AND/OR this character gains damage reduction 10, if it already has damage reduction 10 it gains damage reduction 20
And maybe even a crushing/ramming ability on enemy characters.
-introducing characters with rapport for huges (of 10 or more to reduce their cost)

So any thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: Fixing Huges
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 2:03 pm 
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I'm against straight up errata (they already "errata'd" out Rigid for SWMGPA games). I am all for a character with a SA/CE that grants them Stable Footing or "ignores cover when attacking".


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 Post subject: Re: Fixing Huges
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:58 pm 
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After working on Seps, Theed, a yet unnamed Huge... I'm also feeling the need to design a "playable" Tier 2 huge. Something outside the Yammosk.


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 Post subject: Re: Fixing Huges
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 8:06 am 
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jedispyder wrote:
I'm against straight up errata (they already "errata'd" out Rigid for SWMGPA games). I am all for a character with a SA/CE that grants them Stable Footing or "ignores cover when attacking".


That does seem the best way, perhaps a general fringe character like a new Nym to boost their targeting and mobility?


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 Post subject: Re: Fixing Huges
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 8:11 am 
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Engineer wrote:
After working on Seps, Theed, a yet unnamed Huge... I'm also feeling the need to design a "playable" Tier 2 huge. Something outside the Yammosk.


Wait a separatist huge? AAT perhaps? Nice. Is it better to jus redesign the old pieces to be tougher or come out with a commander spewing rapport, SAs and CEs in evert which direction. While the separatists to dominate the market for huges there are at least a staple in each other faction as well as a plethora of fringe characters which would require a boosting commander to be fringe.


Also do you think those are reasonable things to give a huge, armor/shields/hp, immunity to terrain, and the ability to see pastor objects and/or rough terrain.


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 Post subject: Re: Fixing Huges
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 12:25 pm 
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You could also just re-release them with a new set of stats but under different names.

Flash Speeder = Naboo Flash Speeder
Hailfire Droid = Hailfire Droid Tank
Nikto Gunner on Desert Skiff = Desert Skiff
..and so on.

That way we could slowly get them all back into the game with the V-sets.

The same goes for all the the cool but useless large minis, as was done with the Series II Destroyer Droid.

Scout Trooper on Speeder Bike = Scout Trooper on 74-Z Speeder Bike
Battle Droid on Stap = B1 Battle Droid on STAP
AT-RT = Clone Trooper on AT-RT

I'm personally not a big fan of a fringe 'huge commander' that you have to include when playing huges. With updated names/stats the individual figure will stand out more as unique instead of just getting pumped up.

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 Post subject: Re: Fixing Huges
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 1:43 pm 
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biggsy wrote:
You could also just re-release them with a new set of stats but under different names.

Flash Speeder = Naboo Flash Speeder
Hailfire Droid = Hailfire Droid Tank
Nikto Gunner on Desert Skiff = Desert Skiff
..and so on.

That way we could slowly get them all back into the game with the V-sets.

The same goes for all the the cool but useless large minis, as was done with the Series II Destroyer Droid.

Scout Trooper on Speeder Bike = Scout Trooper on 74-Z Speeder Bike
Battle Droid on Stap = B1 Battle Droid on STAP
AT-RT = Clone Trooper on AT-RT

I'm personally not a big fan of a fringe 'huge commander' that you have to include when playing huges. With updated names/stats the individual figure will stand out more as unique instead of just getting pumped up.

Personally, I like this idea best. I don't like having to pay a "character tax" (ie having to add an extra piece to a squad in order to make the huges playable).
For clarification, I don't consider it a "character tax" to have the upgrades on a piece that is well-costed and adds something useful to the squad besides his StableFooting/DR10 boosts. But I think it is a character tax if that piece doesn't add anything significant other than his huge boosts.

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 Post subject: Re: Fixing Huges
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 3:03 pm 
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I like the idea of creating new V-Set Huges that uset the old minis.

I also think General Wier has shown us that it is possible to make a decent commander that can significanty boost old minis, but is also useful himself as an attacker. If we are to get commanders that help boost existing Huges, then I think the Design team has shown they can create commanders who do more in a squad than just sit in the back and grant bonuses.


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 Post subject: Re: Fixing Huges
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 7:22 pm 
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biggsy wrote:
You could also just re-release them with a new set of stats but under different names.

Flash Speeder = Naboo Flash Speeder
Hailfire Droid = Hailfire Droid Tank
Nikto Gunner on Desert Skiff = Desert Skiff
..and so on.

That way we could slowly get them all back into the game with the V-sets.

The same goes for all the the cool but useless large minis, as was done with the Series II Destroyer Droid.

Scout Trooper on Speeder Bike = Scout Trooper on 74-Z Speeder Bike
Battle Droid on Stap = B1 Battle Droid on STAP
AT-RT = Clone Trooper on AT-RT

I'm personally not a big fan of a fringe 'huge commander' that you have to include when playing huges. With updated names/stats the individual figure will stand out more as unique instead of just getting pumped up.


Great idea, it sucks to have to replace them but it is probably best since the old ones are so bad...
Just throw out technical names for everyone, and also perhaps a commander to further boost such as:
General Loathsoam, ground force commander
15, hp 60, def 16, atk 8, dmg 10
 (rapport 10 for huge droids, ce: huge droid followers gain shields 1 and flanking attack)


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 Post subject: Re: Fixing Huges
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 7:52 pm 
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I agree with General Grievous agreeing with TINT agreeing with Biggsy, which means I too, like Biggsy's idea.

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 Post subject: Re: Fixing Huges
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 9:30 pm 
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Darth_Jim wrote:
I agree with General Grievous agreeing with TINT agreeing with Biggsy, which means I too, like Biggsy's idea.


I agree with Darth Jim agreeing with General Grievous agreeing with...oh, you get the idea.


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 Post subject: Re: Fixing Huges
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 6:59 am 
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buttcabbge wrote:
Darth_Jim wrote:
I agree with General Grievous agreeing with TINT agreeing with Biggsy, which means I too, like Biggsy's idea.


I agree with Darth Jim agreeing with General Grievous agreeing with...oh, you get the idea.


Haha nice guess it's a go then. So specifically stat ideas?

I'm thinking 200 health a piece for the ATSTs and Droid tank. With no less then 120 hp for the other huges. And at least damage reduction 10 for all of them, with 20 for the heavy armored pieces. After all with alot of those huges it took either a jedi or heavy weapons to bring down. Not someone's hold out blaster picking it apart. Would also help penetration to make a comeback and be worth it.


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 Post subject: Re: Fixing Huges
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 5:52 am 
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I agree on this.

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 Post subject: Re: Fixing Huges
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 8:10 am 
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DR 20 + (120-200hp) = Really frakin high point cost, unless it just otherwise sucks and all you can use it for is a wall. That tactic almost completely neuters ALOT of stuff in the game, and even more if they arent played with exactly the right squad.

Example: Vong. No Jedi Hunter (except vs Boga-Wan Kenobi). No poison vs droids/ non-living (I think that covers all but Boga again).

So you having that one piece in your squad means they have very limited ways of getting to 30dmg/hit. And most of those ways are from situational bonuses like Cunning/Momentum.

Damage reduction (especially 20) shouldnt be handed out lightly. There is a reason the ONLY piece with it so far is the ATAT, which isnt tourney legal.

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 Post subject: Re: Fixing Huges
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 10:00 am 
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Disturbed1 wrote:
DR 20 + (120-200hp) = Really frakin high point cost, unless it just otherwise sucks and all you can use it for is a wall. That tactic almost completely neuters ALOT of stuff in the game, and even more if they arent played with exactly the right squad.

Example: Vong. No Jedi Hunter (except vs Boga-Wan Kenobi). No poison vs droids/ non-living (I think that covers all but Boga again).

So you having that one piece in your squad means they have very limited ways of getting to 30dmg/hit. And most of those ways are from situational bonuses like Cunning/Momentum.

Damage reduction (especially 20) shouldnt be handed out lightly. There is a reason the ONLY piece with it so far is the ATAT, which isnt tourney legal.

+1

A better option could be something like Advanced DR. (auto 10, save 11 for extra 10, maybe just once per turn)


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 Post subject: Re: Fixing Huges
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 10:23 am 
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Giving Huges massive amounts of hit points and/or Damage Reduction might turn them into Epic-style characters - very difficult to maintain balance in competitive play. But I don't want to relegate Huges to some rarely-played backwater tournament format either.

The huge base size is a big disadvantage for many reasons, but two big ones are: even a single square of difficult terrain or low objects will slow down a Huge substantially, and even a single character (usually a Mouse droid or a diplomat) will stop a Huge in its tracks, preventing it from moving through or ending its move where it wants to be.

Flight helps, but it's still too easy to deny a Huge an advantageous landing site with a single well-placed scrub character.

What if most Huges came with some ability to clear a path for themselves and also some way to clear out a landing space at the end of their move?

Walker types and wheeled types could have variations of the AT-AT's Stomp ability. The huge would be able to enter spaces occupied by other characters, if so the character (ally or enemy) must move to an adjacent unoccupied square, maybe there is a save and something bad happens if it's failed - this could vary depending on the Huge character. Maybe it's getting stunned, maybe taking some finite amount of damage, maybe it's just losing the right to make an attack of opportunity against the Huge as it lumbers past. "Save or Die" is something we should probably reserve for the AT-AT.

Flying and hover types could have some new Repulsor ability where they ignore other characters while moving (like flight), but they can end their move in spaces occupied by other characters, and then those characters have to move to the closest legal space, maybe save or take damage or something.

I think it would be cool if most of your enemies tried to *get out of the way* when a Huge character approached, rather than jumping *into* its path.

This would partly mitigate the mobility disadvantage, as well as giving Huges a new way to deal damage or otherwise affect the battlefield - leveraging their size.

Thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: Fixing Huges
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 11:17 am 
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Well I see your point, however many factions already have penetration, and the vong's maste shaper gives out demolish which ignores it, so base a shaped up lah or shimmra next to a huge a one turn and 120 damage later... Between penetration, lightsaber, demolish, and pieces dealing 30-40 damage. It actually makes sense to hand out damage reduction 10 to all of them, and possibly 20 to the tanks/machines. Also the ATAT is absolute junk even with the damage reduction 20. It's not that powerful especially when most teams have an auto-included jedi that can get past the DR, examples:

the old republic can boost damage with battle meditation/ambushing jedi's
the sith is again all force users that can base, swap and repeat
Seps have the same huges and penetration pieces
republic is all about the jedi and maybe someone would actually play oddball now
Imperials have force users that swap with opportunist, also super stealth fire support and lord vader
Rebels have the jedi, demolish on chewie, and could easily get past the DR with super cunning and/or a new CE for penetration for pilots
New republic jedi, grandmaster Skywalker, jaina
Mandalorians have jaina, and would need to get a penetration CE, or just pick apart with the 30 damage dealers twinning.
Vong have demolish and as a faction should be able to hand it put as a CE to have demolish and stood hunter (it suits them). You could also create a cheap fringe shooter like the pilot Vana Sage for 20 points and give her mobile attack, penetration 10, ion gun and droid hunter. So any faction with Reserves/reinforcements could bring her in.
Also a 20 point hanharr or jedi with demolish to help out.

Huges will always be huge and awkward and harder to play then large and medium pieces, they get torn apart by mobile and stealth whom most people have. And are easily trapped/blocked/forced to target either nothing or what the enemy wants you too. So they could use any advantage they can get. As shown damage reduction is not very powerful, also an influx in it's use in huges would both boost the lightsaber wielding jedi melee crowd, tone down on lancer which I'm sure we all hate, allow penetration/demolish to be a relevant and important SA again and bring a fresh dynamic into the game.

As far as other abilities i think that some huges should be given an ability like:

Superior Optics (enemy characters do not receive cover from low ground and low objects against this characters attacks)

Stable footed

And either overwhelming force (because lights we deflecting/evading a 30-50 damage hit is lame) or splash 20 (anyone seeing the tanks both in star wars and real life knows the amount of area destruction tanks create)

Also shields 1/energy shields either as a rarely passed out ability from a CE like a new general loathsoam or sparingly handed out.

Also on that note another interesting idea for artillery type pieces like the tanks:

Giving them fire support mission, or allowing one medium ally to have it, so when you come up against a super stealth team you can still send in small parties to call down fire support missions. Maybe it activates the tank maybe not; some vehicles do have multiple weapon systems. When you play a huge it should play like the leviathan, like you are actually using a tank that your opponent actually has to think about how to take down. Not just vader stats with a gun.

Example pieces:

Huge crab 
40, hp 180, def 16, ATk 9, dmg 30
SA
Droid
Damage Reduction 20
Weak spots 10 (this characters damage reduction is reduced to 10 against attacks from adjacent enemies)
Energy bubble (replaces attacks, target enemy and all adjacent characters are considered activated this turn, save 16)
Sure Footed
Muckrucker (allied characters within 6 squares gain sure-footed and +4 defense)

Heavy Hailfire
40, hp 100, def 15, atk 10, dmg 30
SA: 
droid
sure footed
wheeled
advanced missiles 40 (save of 16)
dual fire (this character can use abilities that replaces attacks twice instead of once)
damage reduction 20
Weak Spots 10

Corporate alliance persuader tank 
30, hp 200, def 16, atk 10, dmg 30
SA:
droid
Sure footed
damage reduction 20
double attack
Splash 20
mounted weapon
doctrine of fear
speed 8 

Homing spider droid 55, hp 150, def 17, ATk 14, dmg 40
SA
Droid
damage reduction 20
Weak spot 10
accurate shot
sustained shot (once per turn, if this character's attack defeats an enemy, you may make another ranged attack) 
Point defense cannon (this character can make attacks of opportunity on characters that move into or out of an adjacent square, characters with special abilities that ignore characters while moving are subject to this effect)

Collossal
AT-AT Blizzard 1
HP 400, def 13, atk 0, dmg 0
Unique
Colossal
Damage reduction 30
Weak spots 20
Mounted Weapon
Medium blasters
Staggered Activations 6 (3 move actions,  1 heavy blasters, 2 medium blasters)
Stomp
Walk 2
Point defense cannon (this character can make attacks of opportunity on characters that move into or out of an adjacent square using medium blasters. Characters with special abilities that ignore characters while moving are subject to this effect)
Overwhelming force
Rapport 20 for AT-STs
CE
AT-STs gain overwhelming force

(and finally as a counter part to the snowspeeders)
Tie Fighter (RM tie crawler)
25, Hp 50, def 16, ATk 10, dmg 20
SA
Damage Reduction 10
Mounted Weapon
Twin Attack
Penetration 10
Flight 
Mobile attack
Speed 18
Splash 10


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 Post subject: Re: Fixing Huges
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 11:29 am 
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barzillai wrote:
Giving Huges massive amounts of hit points and/or Damage Reduction might turn them into Epic-style characters - very difficult to maintain balance in competitive play. But I don't want to relegate Huges to some rarely-played backwater tournament format either.

The huge base size is a big disadvantage for many reasons, but two big ones are: even a single square of difficult terrain or low objects will slow down a Huge substantially, and even a single character (usually a Mouse droid or a diplomat) will stop a Huge in its tracks, preventing it from moving through or ending its move where it wants to be.

Flight helps, but it's still too easy to deny a Huge an advantageous landing site with a single well-placed scrub character.

What if most Huges came with some ability to clear a path for themselves and also some way to clear out a landing space at the end of their move?

Walker types and wheeled types could have variations of the AT-AT's Stomp ability. The huge would be able to enter spaces occupied by other characters, if so the character (ally or enemy) must move to an adjacent unoccupied square, maybe there is a save and something bad happens if it's failed - this could vary depending on the Huge character. Maybe it's getting stunned, maybe taking some finite amount of damage, maybe it's just losing the right to make an attack of opportunity against the Huge as it lumbers past. "Save or Die" is something we should probably reserve for the AT-AT.

Flying and hover types could have some new Repulsor ability where they ignore other characters while moving (like flight), but they can end their move in spaces occupied by other characters, and then those characters have to move to the closest legal space, maybe save or take damage or something.

I think it would be cool if most of your enemies tried to *get out of the way* when a Huge character approached, rather than jumping *into* its path.

This would partly mitigate the mobility disadvantage, as well as giving Huges a new way to deal damage or otherwise affect the battlefield - leveraging their size.

Thoughts?



Very good idea, something like:

Barreling Assualt (replaces turn, this character can move up to it's speed and then make an attack. It cannont move into a square it has just occupied. As this character moves, any characters occupying squares it moves into take 20 damage, save 6 and are moved to another square adjacent to this character)

That would allow the player who is hit by the huge to move aside or even behind the huge where it cannot be hit again as the huge charges through them.

Rupulsors (this character ignores chracters when it ends it's move, any characters occupying the same squares as this characters end position are moved to the closet empty square. Characters that move in this fashion are activated, save 6)


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 Post subject: Re: Fixing Huges
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 11:32 am 
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barzillai wrote:
Giving Huges massive amounts of hit points and/or Damage Reduction might turn them into Epic-style characters - very difficult to maintain balance in competitive play. But I don't want to relegate Huges to some rarely-played backwater tournament format either.

The huge base size is a big disadvantage for many reasons, but two big ones are: even a single square of difficult terrain or low objects will slow down a Huge substantially, and even a single character (usually a Mouse droid or a diplomat) will stop a Huge in its tracks, preventing it from moving through or ending its move where it wants to be.

Flight helps, but it's still too easy to deny a Huge an advantageous landing site with a single well-placed scrub character.

What if most Huges came with some ability to clear a path for themselves and also some way to clear out a landing space at the end of their move?

Walker types and wheeled types could have variations of the AT-AT's Stomp ability. The huge would be able to enter spaces occupied by other characters, if so the character (ally or enemy) must move to an adjacent unoccupied square, maybe there is a save and something bad happens if it's failed - this could vary depending on the Huge character. Maybe it's getting stunned, maybe taking some finite amount of damage, maybe it's just losing the right to make an attack of opportunity against the Huge as it lumbers past. "Save or Die" is something we should probably reserve for the AT-AT.

Flying and hover types could have some new Repulsor ability where they ignore other characters while moving (like flight), but they can end their move in spaces occupied by other characters, and then those characters have to move to the closest legal space, maybe save or take damage or something.

I think it would be cool if most of your enemies tried to *get out of the way* when a Huge character approached, rather than jumping *into* its path.

This would partly mitigate the mobility disadvantage, as well as giving Huges a new way to deal damage or otherwise affect the battlefield - leveraging their size.

Thoughts?


I like all of these ideas. :)

Some thoughts off the top of my head regarding "clearing a landing space":

1) Characters with flight could have a lower save (like when pushed into a pit) for whatever effect is in play.

2) Emplacement is an odd situation, and I suppose would have to be an exception to clearing a landing spot, though it doesn't make sense that a huge couldn't knock over a Bacta Tank, for example.

3) Droids, which generally aren't as agile as living, (some SAs would be exceptions) or any character forced to move greater than it's speed to reach a legal square could perhaps take automatic damage, or at least have a higher save to negate.


GeneralGrievous has some good points and interesting ideas as well.

It's time for a Huge v-set! (or mini-sets) 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: Fixing Huges
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 1:18 pm 
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1) In your earlier suggestions, you didnt mention almost ALL of the pieces you think should get DR 20 also have Weak Spots. That inclusion makes me much more accepting of your idea.

GeneralGrievous wrote:
Also the ATAT is absolute junk even with the damage reduction 20. It's not that powerful especially when most teams have an auto-included jedi that can get past the DR, examples:


2) This quote indicates you didnt get my point. Im not saying the ATAT is great or even good. Its a scenario piece, not meant for tournament play. The reason it was given DR 20 and nothing else in the entire game was is because its armor was unmatched in anything else on the ground (that we have in scale for SWM anyway). Also, yes, people can play w saber weilding characters against the ATAT and itll go down quick, but how many lightsaber wielders were in the Battle of Hoth? One, being Luke, obviously. How many did he take down with his lightsaber? None (I credit the one he blew to the grenade, personally).

Edit:
3) Yes, many factions have ways around it aside from sabers, but the options are often not very good, and even if you dohave decent options then they become almost auto-include in many cases just in case you would run up against something with DR 20.

As I said though, your 'Weak Points' idea sounds pretty good to me to comliment the heavier DR if it was to be applied, so good work on that idea.

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