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 Post subject: updating an old Kamino layout for a future SWM league kit
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:17 am 
Death Star Designers
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We've had a lot of discussion lately about how the current game impacts map design.

With the possibility of deep strike tactics and so many powerful shooters, cover is less important than it used to be. Maps need to offer places to hide commanders, and strategically-placed doors to slow down the more mobile builds. Melee squads must be more than acknowledged, maps almost need to favor them.

I found an old Kamino layout I had drawn years ago. No matter how you hack it, Kamino is presented as a flat, open place with a lot of pits. The custom map attempts at Kamino thus far have been much like my early attempts: very ranged friendly and broken for force push.

Well, I've been playing with ways of making that old layout into a Kamino map that *feels* like Kamino, but gives Melee a fighting chance. Have a look at this layout:
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I'd like to hear your thoughts, as this map is in the pipeline for our 2011 Armored Cartographers releases.


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 Post subject: Re: updating an old Kamino layout for a future SWM league kit
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:22 am 
Death Star Designers
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Looks pretty good

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 Post subject: Re: updating an old Kamino layout for a future SWM league kit
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:53 am 
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I like it, but might I suggest the idea of making it a bit more along the lines of the Cloud City map. Mostly interior with one bigger section thats exterior.

That way, you can avoid alot of the force push problems, give cover to melee, but still have decent firing lanes for shooters (as the hallways looks relatively open in Ep 2).

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 Post subject: Re: updating an old Kamino layout for a future SWM league kit
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:37 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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Force push, from the left side of the map, can easily shut off gambit to their opponent, and get to those necessary positions pretty quick (Rd 1) with careful setup. From the right, those control points are only moderately weaker and slightly slower to get to.

However adding walls to the edges of those walkways would be terrible, effectivly quadranting off the map. I'd have to see it, but adding walkways diagonally into gambit should do the trick.

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 Post subject: Re: updating an old Kamino layout for a future SWM league kit
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:18 pm 
Death Star Designers
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Disturbed1 wrote:
I like it, but might I suggest the idea of making it a bit more along the lines of the Cloud City map. Mostly interior with one bigger section thats exterior.

That way, you can avoid alot of the force push problems, give cover to melee, but still have decent firing lanes for shooters (as the hallways looks relatively open in Ep 2).


I have some less-developed Kamino layouts which were closer to 50/50 interior/exterior, but they were less exciting than this one. To be honest, I'd rather make a map that doesn't feel like Cloud City when you're playing it since we have enough interior-only maps already. Besides, why do you want another Cloud City landing platform map?


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 Post subject: Re: updating an old Kamino layout for a future SWM league kit
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:50 pm 
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I dont neccessarily want anotehr Cloud City, but that was the first thing that popped into my head when I raed your concern over Force Push. TCW's idea sounds pretty good to me, too, and should leave it distinctively not Cloud City.

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 Post subject: Re: updating an old Kamino layout for a future SWM league kit
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:28 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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I really like this layout.

There are quite a few doors that are safe to open, thanks to the careful placement of walls and corners. The LOSs have been very well-thought-out on this map. A+ there!

It seems like a VERY melee-friendly map, with lots of obstructions to LOS.

However, there are some significantly long LOSs from one side to the other. I imagine that in many cases the player on the left will need to start in the lower-left room, in order to avoid being shot from between the 2 doors in the top-right room (which is where I expect the right's softies will usually be hiding).

I've done some square counting, and both sides have access to first-round gambit without movement breakers and/or speed boosts. However, the right side will have a shorter path from starting-area-to-gambit; the left side can only reach gambit if it starts its gambit piece outside of that main closed-in area. That piece looks like it should be safe at first, unless I'm missing some towed/swapped-shooter options.

The prevalence of 2-square walkways make the map not highly huge-friendly, though that has never bothered me at all.

Characters with flight will obviously enjoy this map. It will also be excellent for tough melee characters, because it will give them a chance to close the gap on shooters.

If you'd like, I'd be willing to playtest this map a few times before you move ahead into the art-design phase. I'd find a way to add it to Vassal, so that I could work with some of my Vassal buddies to see how games play out on it with various squad-types. Lemme know if you're interested; if you're not, then that's fine too. :)

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 Post subject: Re: updating an old Kamino layout for a future SWM league kit
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:42 pm 
Moff Disra
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thereisnotry wrote:
The prevalence of 2-square walkways make the map not highly huge-friendly, though that has never bothered me at all.

Characters with flight will obviously enjoy this map.

Not being able to really use huges is a "huge" problem. If we are still using the idea that it's good to be able to play huges, then having a huge friendly map in the league kit would be nice. That does create some design issues (a 3 wide path to gambit or near it from each side or the top/bottom).

I'm not sure that the flight characters need any more advantages.


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 Post subject: Re: updating an old Kamino layout for a future SWM league kit
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:26 pm 
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Engineer wrote:
Not being able to really use huges is a "huge" problem. If we are still using the idea that it's good to be able to play huges, then having a huge friendly map in the league kit would be nice. That does create some design issues (a 3 wide path to gambit or near it from each side or the top/bottom).


I think we'll make an effort to make at least one side of each league kit map huge friendly. I don't think every map we release will need to be huge-friendly.


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 Post subject: Re: updating an old Kamino layout for a future SWM league kit
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:38 pm 
Moff Disra
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armoredgear7 wrote:
Engineer wrote:
Not being able to really use huges is a "huge" problem. If we are still using the idea that it's good to be able to play huges, then having a huge friendly map in the league kit would be nice. That does create some design issues (a 3 wide path to gambit or near it from each side or the top/bottom).


I think we'll make an effort to make at least one side of each league kit map huge friendly. I don't think every map we release will need to be huge-friendly.

So a huge figure player will not be able to choose this as their map. Only by losing the map roll, can they be forced to select the one "good" side of the map.

I don't understand going through all the effort in making these maps not to make all the best choices to make them possible to be added to the restricted map list.


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 Post subject: Re: updating an old Kamino layout for a future SWM league kit
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:01 pm 
Droid Army Commander
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the first map that comes to mind when I see this layout is your Nar Shaada map. I could see this being an abusive map.

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 Post subject: Re: updating an old Kamino layout for a future SWM league kit
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:47 am 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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I've honestly got no problem with an expansive push favored map. We could use one. What you have to be careful on, is the complete exclusion of huges - and that's not just because it kills huges.

A map entirely with 2 square hallways (or in this case walkways) significantly restricts movement actions and choices, which in turn, also limits the options that a player can take on their turn, and their opponent will know it. You can use small walkways like this to block your opponent. I will tell you, this is not a melee friendly map in anyway. All you need in the shooter squad, is to bring 2 Caamasi Nobles via reinforcements, and the melee squad will get slaughtered. Protecting a Noble wall on a 3 square walkway (generally by preventing los to just a noble is exponentially harder than it is with 2. I think just expanding the walkways to 3 squares would get this thing pretty close to usable. As is, it's got little chance at making the restricted list.

Now, with that said, I've got no problem releasing maps like this that are good for other purposes.

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 Post subject: Re: updating an old Kamino layout for a future SWM league kit
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:44 am 
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billiv15 wrote:
I've honestly got no problem with an expansive push favored map. We could use one. What you have to be careful on, is the complete exclusion of huges - and that's not just because it kills huges.

A map entirely with 2 square hallways (or in this case walkways) significantly restricts movement actions and choices, which in turn, also limits the options that a player can take on their turn, and their opponent will know it. You can use small walkways like this to block your opponent. I will tell you, this is not a melee friendly map in anyway. All you need in the shooter squad, is to bring 2 Caamasi Nobles via reinforcements, and the melee squad will get slaughtered. Protecting a Noble wall on a 3 square walkway (generally by preventing los to just a noble is exponentially harder than it is with 2. I think just expanding the walkways to 3 squares would get this thing pretty close to usable. As is, it's got little chance at making the restricted list.

Now, with that said, I've got no problem releasing maps like this that are good for other purposes.

As much as I personally like this layout, I think Bill makes some very good points. I had not considered the matter of a Caamasi Noble wall or OR Senator wall, since you could build an OR Senator shooter squad for this map.

I can see how maybe widening the main walkways at least (or just making them all 3-wide) would be a worthwhile change. It would make the map more huge-friendly (nice), and it would also help to prevent the diplo-wall problem (nice and important). Either way, I can't wait to play on this map. I'll see about finding a way to load it onto Vassal for playtesting.

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 Post subject: Re: updating an old Kamino layout for a future SWM league kit
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 9:56 am 
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Great feedback guys; these are the sorts of abusive things that I don't easily figure out by myself.

I'm going to try a layout with 3-square walkways and see if I can make them fit in a way that doesn't compromise my vision of the map.

R5Don4: I was going to sketch this map out on large graph paper for some playtesting next week if you're interested.


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 Post subject: Re: updating an old Kamino layout for a future SWM league kit
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:17 am 
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Communication received armoredgear 7. Response affirmative.

Well enough of 1950's robot talk. Is that tomorrow or next week?

I'll bring some builds as suggested in this thread trying to abuse this map.

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 Post subject: Re: updating an old Kamino layout for a future SWM league kit
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:15 pm 
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armoredgear7 wrote:
Great feedback guys; these are the sorts of abusive things that I don't easily figure out by myself.

I'm going to try a layout with 3-square walkways and see if I can make them fit in a way that doesn't compromise my vision of the map.

R5Don4: I was going to sketch this map out on large graph paper for some playtesting next week if you're interested.


I hate to say it, but someone must. Exactly the reason you and Matt have maps on the restricted list. Thanks for taking the time and having the humility to ask and listen.

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 Post subject: Re: updating an old Kamino layout for a future SWM league kit
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:44 pm 
Moff Disra
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billiv15 wrote:
armoredgear7 wrote:
Great feedback guys; these are the sorts of abusive things that I don't easily figure out by myself.

I'm going to try a layout with 3-square walkways and see if I can make them fit in a way that doesn't compromise my vision of the map.

R5Don4: I was going to sketch this map out on large graph paper for some playtesting next week if you're interested.


I hate to say it, but someone must. Exactly the reason you and Matt have maps on the restricted list. Thanks for taking the time and having the humility to ask and listen.

I agree. I wish everyone would/could listen to good advice.


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 Post subject: Re: updating an old Kamino layout for a future SWM league kit
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:44 pm 
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agreed and at a stage people feel like they can add input.

With a rough sketch I feel like saying something about a map. At the point of looking like the map is done I am afraid to say anything because it looks like someone has already put 2 billion hours into the map. So great job Josh.

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 Post subject: Re: updating an old Kamino layout for a future SWM league kit
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:32 pm 
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Beating a dead horse here but huge friendly helps. Even just widening or creating a central 3 wide walkway that bisects the map length-wise would help. The curvy side walkways all around that could still be engaged by a huge pulling up to a door or into one of those rooms


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 Post subject: Re: updating an old Kamino layout for a future SWM league kit
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:24 pm 
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This is a pretty sweet feel for a map. I like it. Great job so far, can't wait to see the finished product.


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