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 Post subject: Interesting Topic #8: Step by Step Setup Rough proposal.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:29 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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Step 1: Reveal Squads
Step 2: Reveal Reinforcements (if both players have Reinforcements, players build in secret and reveal simultaneously)
Step 3: Map Roll. Highest rolling player chooses map. Lowest player (Player A) chooses side to set up or defers.
Step 4: Player A sets up (or B, in the case of a deferral) and any abilities besides Reinforcements that occur during set-up would happen in this step.
Step 5: Player B sets up (or B, in the case of a deferral) and any abilities besides Reinforcements that occur during set-up would happen in this step
Step 6: Resolve any abilities that happen after setup. In the case of abilities that replace or add characters both players resolve simultaneously (See Reinforcements).
Step 7: Resolve door status, if a character is adjacent to any door at this step, that door is considered open.
Step 8: Begin Skirmish

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #8: Step by Step Setup Rough proposal.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:57 pm 
Death Star Designers
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I don't like it. Steps 4&5 should essentially be simultaneous with Step 2. I'm not a fan of tieing anything else to the map rolls, other than the map/side.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #8: Step by Step Setup Rough proposal.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:08 am 
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I dont like it either. I agree with Sithborg.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #8: Step by Step Setup Rough proposal.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:08 am 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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According to Glossary Definition, "During setup, after seeing your opponent’s squad, you can add up to [#] points of characters to your squad". So that would be during Step 4/5, just like Sithborg mentioned. No way it would be after revealing squads, especially since Map Choice is a big influence for Reinforcements.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #8: Step by Step Setup Rough proposal.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:38 am 
Big Bad Brad
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You know I never paid that much attention to Reinforcements till Lansing and I could have swore we were technically picking them before map. I was bringing in virtually all my door control via Reinforcements and not playing a door heavy map.

I think that's why I stuck them there, because I thought that's where we were playing them. If they go after map choice is determined then yeah it'd be step 3 and map roll would be 2. Of course, the step would only occur if both players had reinforcements, otherwise it goes in that players respective step.

The problem I see here is if I have Reinforcements and win map roll and you have a Yammosk, then you have to defer side to me or risk my bringing in a valuable commander in via Reinforcements with no fear of TI.

It'd have to be it's own independent step immediately after map roll regardless of whether both players have it or not. Then all other during set-up abilities would simply occur in that players set up step.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #8: Step by Step Setup Rough proposal.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:02 am 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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Step 1: Reveal Squads
Step 2: Resolve any abilities that occur before set up, after squads are revealed. In the case of multiple abilities that occur in this step, resolve them independently of each other. Resolve in the order of the active player's (player with the ability) choosing. If both squads contain the same named ability, those abilities must be resolved at the same time, chosen in secret and revealed at the same time.
Step 3: Map Roll. Highest rolling player chooses map. Lowest player (Player A) chooses side to set up or defers.
Step 4: Player A sets up (or B, in the case of a deferral)
Step 5: Player B sets up (or B, in the case of a deferral)
Step 6: Resolve any abilities that happen after setup. In the case of abilities that replace or add characters both players resolve simultaneously (See Reinforcements).
Step 7: Resolve door status, if a character is adjacent to any door at this step, that door is considered open.
Step 8: Begin Skirmish

I think I fixed it to the correct method.

People can think what they want here, but this idea that you can use reinforcements to prevent the Yammosk from stealing a CE is just wrong. That was not the intention, it was worded to work when it does on purpose. I will not support changing the set up rules to deter what is an absolutely minor issue. What CE's are we really talking about here? Mighty Swing? Is there any other reinforcement CE that would significantly help the Vong? Or perhaps you are all thinking of Nute Gunrey - yep, we sure need to make it tougher for the Vong to fight against the almost auto-loss matchup :)

As is, there is already a way to get around TI built into Palleon, and that is much more effective than this reinforcement issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #8: Step by Step Setup Rough proposal.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:08 am 
Big Bad Brad
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Not sure why you think I am trying to do that. In fact, the first suggestion called for exactly what you intended. Just trying to back it up, by showing Reinforcements go here, TI goes here. Which was my intent in the other thread as well, once the question was answered.

Not sure what your Step 2 is for. What currently says "before set up"? Also you allude to reinforcements in the after set up stage but make no direct statement for them.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #8: Step by Step Setup Rough proposal.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:11 am 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
Not sure why you think I am trying to do that. Do you even read peoples comments anymore? In fact, the first suggestion called for exactly what you intended. Just trying to back it up, by showing Reinforcements go here, TI goes here.


I read it, but you titled step 2 "Reveal Reinforcements". Perhaps that was misleading? Then you moved all other abilities to step 4-5, which is not correct, and does in fact move TI to that step, out of 2. I'm pretty sure I know how to read.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #8: Step by Step Setup Rough proposal.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:13 am 
Big Bad Brad
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billiv15 wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
Not sure why you think I am trying to do that. Do you even read peoples comments anymore? In fact, the first suggestion called for exactly what you intended. Just trying to back it up, by showing Reinforcements go here, TI goes here.


I read it, but you titled step 2 "Reveal Reinforcements". Perhaps that was misleading? Then you moved all other abilities to step 4-5, which is not correct, and does in fact move TI to that step, out of 2. I'm pretty sure I know how to read.



Ok so, are people saying two different things here? In my original step 2, should reinforcements go there along with TI or not?? See Sithborg and Jonny for reference?

The only problem with it all being in step 2 is the "Acting player" you kept referencing in the other thread. There is no acting player determined in Step 2.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #8: Step by Step Setup Rough proposal.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:22 am 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
billiv15 wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
Not sure why you think I am trying to do that. Do you even read peoples comments anymore? In fact, the first suggestion called for exactly what you intended. Just trying to back it up, by showing Reinforcements go here, TI goes here.


I read it, but you titled step 2 "Reveal Reinforcements". Perhaps that was misleading? Then you moved all other abilities to step 4-5, which is not correct, and does in fact move TI to that step, out of 2. I'm pretty sure I know how to read.



Ok so, are people saying two different things here? In my original step 2, should reinforcements go there along with TI or not?? See Sithborg and Jonny for reference?

The only problem with it all being in step 2 is the "Acting player" you kept referencing in the other thread. There is no acting player determined in Step 2.


I'm really getting confused reading the thread - especially your comments and JS.

The way the rules currently work, reinforcements are done before map roll. TI and any other ability written just like it, would occur at the same time. The question is whether or not a person with reinforcements can force an opponent with TI to use their TI before they use reinforcements. There is no way to support that IMO, and it was never the intention of the designers to my knowledge. They are part of the same step, in the same way override and door resolution occurs. "Acting player" may not be the best term here, but it works well enough. All it really refers to is the player with an ability in this step, and I've got no problem clarifying with another term if people want, but it works essentially the same as all in game uses of the phrase other than the technical, "no one is taking a turn" issue. So call it "person with the ability" like I put in parenthesis if you want to.

If I read correctly, I agree with Scott, none of this should be changed to be tied into the actual set up, your steps 4&5. That is a significant change to the rules, and changes the intentions of design. Considering there are no balance issue that I am aware of at stake in this (as in the case of past changes to the set up rules) I am entirely against such a rewrite, just as Scott and Jonny were.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #8: Step by Step Setup Rough proposal.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:26 am 
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I may be over simplyfying but if the setup phase us everything before you start playing the game.map, cannot the player with TI, just decide to do it when ever he wants? The things that happen after set-up such as Palleon are not affected? It could just be me, but it feels more complicated then it should be.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #8: Step by Step Setup Rough proposal.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:39 am 
Big Bad Brad
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Ok, that's making a little more sense now. At least you took the time to actually have a discussion rather than a general disagreement.

However, to continue playing devil's advocate on this.
billiv15 wrote:
The question is whether or not a person with reinforcements can force an opponent with TI to use their TI before they use reinforcements.


Couldn't the question be reversed? In that we are now forcing a player with Reinforcements to use them before a player with TI. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for TI copying Reinforcements, I'm just looking for a solid linear reasoning. Maybe where it's not needed. I could see this getting really muddled with any future during set-up abilities though.

So are we basically stating the general rule of abilities that add to or change the figures in your squad must occur first in any given step? I would be behind that and it definately settles any arguements players may have with judges...for now (see above with the addition of any other abilites).

I put the Steps up to garner a discussion on that matter, and looking through them they weren't clearly thought out or well worded. They were also never intended to be my opinion, though it reflected it somewhat, and was just getting irritated with the less than stellar responses or the assumption that it was. That was my bad, don't know what's been with the short fuse lately.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #8: Step by Step Setup Rough proposal.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:03 am 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
billiv15 wrote:
The question is whether or not a person with reinforcements can force an opponent with TI to use their TI before they use reinforcements.


Couldn't the question be reversed? In that we are now forcing a player with Reinforcements to use them before a player with TI. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for TI copying Reinforcements, I'm just looking for a solid linear reasoning. Maybe where it's not needed. I could see this getting really muddled with any future during set-up abilities though.


Feel free to be a short fuse as often as you like, I'm a fan of the discussions - but you probably know that already :)

Here's my answer to this particular point. In a sense, yes you are. But not in the way that it seems. Let's use my override example again. Go back to the forgetting to resolve an existing override example. When this happens, the player with the override, can go back and add a new one, the opposing player cannot use "forgetting" to his advantage. I believe the same here. As in override, they occur at the same time, therefore a player has the option to choose the reinforcement CE precisely because of the timing. Now, when you add in door resolution, the "acting player" in this case the player whose turn it is (although the rules could easily have said, the player who is using the ability) gets to choose the order. In a case of TI vs Reinforcements, I can see the argument about who is the acting player. But if we expand it, to a player with TI and reinforcements vs Reinforcements, it becomes clear that the choice should be in the player with access to multiple things. How about a case with both players having both things? Again, the players could disagree as to the order, but the question is about which order best fulfills the requirements of the rules as written. In this case as well as the override/door resolution the official step is not over until all abilities that occur in that step are finished, therefore, the guy has the right to choose it if he wants. Perhaps my using of "acting player" has added more to the confusion than was necessary. So let me try to explain my position in a different way.

First, you could go the route of allowing either or both players to even change their responses based on the opponent's choices, but I think we all agree that this would lead to abuse and at least annoyance. Therefore the easier solution is to finish reinforcements before TI, which covers the rights of the TI player, and the rights of the Reinforcement player fully and listing the requirements of each should clarify it.

1. Reinforcements - you are allowed to see your opponent's entire squad, other than reinforcements before choosing, and must do so before rolling for map. You do get to know what your opponent's map is however, just not which one will be chosen. The rule has long been in place that when both players have this same ability, the choice is made in secret and revealed in secret. Before TI, there were no other abilities that occurred at this time, so it's clear exactly what the player is allowed to know or not know for this step. Doing TI before it, would change the power of reinforcements, and what you would potentially know. Doing TI after, would not change a thing about it.

2. TI - you are allowed to know your opponent's entire squad before hand, and choose from any CE they have in the squad. Does this include reinforcement CEs? If we intended it not to work this way, we would have changed the timing of TI to occur before reinforcements. As it is, we did not - whether intended or not, I cannot justify that denying the reinforcement CE would fulfill fully what TI allows. Doing TI first, puts a restriction on TI, that is not written anywhere in the rules for it. Doing it after, fully satisfies the ability as written.

I understand some people might want to restrict TI, but that isn't justified by the rules. In my estimation, doing it in this order via convenience fully satisfies the requirements of both abilities, and the reverse in fact does not. Therefore, it's pretty easy for me to say that the rules allow or require it done in this order, rather than the reverse.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #8: Step by Step Setup Rough proposal.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:07 am 
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billiv15 wrote:


1. Reinforcements - you are allowed to see your opponent's entire squad, other than reinforcements before choosing, and must do so before rolling for map. You do get to know what your opponent's map is however, just not which one will be chosen. The rule has long been in place that when both players have this same ability, the choice is made in secret and revealed in secret. Before TI, there were no other abilities that occurred at this time, so it's clear exactly what the player is allowed to know or not know for this step. Doing TI before it, would change the power of reinforcements, and what you would potentially know. Doing TI after, would not change a thing about it.

2. TI - you are allowed to know your opponent's entire squad before hand, and choose from any CE they have in the squad. Does this include reinforcement CEs? If we intended it not to work this way, we would have changed the timing of TI to occur before reinforcements. As it is, we did not - whether intended or not, I cannot justify that denying the reinforcement CE would fulfill fully what TI allows. Doing TI first, puts a restriction on TI, that is not written anywhere in the rules for it. Doing it after, fully satisfies the ability as written.


Nailed it. +1

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #8: Step by Step Setup Rough proposal.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:50 am 
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Ok, would giving a semi-errata for TI to change the wording to say, "During setup, after Reinforcements are revealed....." be enough to clarify the interaction?

There was one thing that was said that does not completely agree with the floor rules:

billiv15 wrote:
1. Reinforcements - you are allowed to see your opponent's entire squad, other than reinforcements before choosing, and must do so before rolling for map.


The floor rules, under section 614, say the following:

Pregame Procedures and Who Plays First
1. Players begin the pregame procedure by revealing their squads to each other.
2. Players roll to determine which player will chose the map to be played on.
3. The player with the higher roll chooses which map will be played on. The player with the lower roll selects whether to set up first or second. The player who sets up first selects a side and sets up his miniatures, then the other player sets up on the opposite side.
4. Players roll for initiative to determine who will play first.

In the interest of the game, I'm just pointing this out because the rules for Reinforcements says "During setup, after seeing your opponent's squad...". The way the floor rules is written, setup doesn't occur until step 3 (after map roll is made). The wording for Reinforcements suggests that it happens at step 1 and step 3. There needs to be some clarification in either Reinforcements or an amendment to the floor rules to avoid confusion.

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Last edited by Jester007 on Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #8: Step by Step Setup Rough proposal.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:16 am 
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Bad word choice. Reinforcements still happens after squads are revealed.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #8: Step by Step Setup Rough proposal.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:36 am 
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Bill is correct that Reinforcements occurs before map roll.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/ ... #383253937

1. Reveal squad and map
2. Build Reinforcements (in secret then reveal simultaneously if it matters)
3. Determine map
4. Set up pieces
5. Do anything else that must be done in setup that hasn't been done yet (TI, etc and in secret and reveal simultaneously if it matters)

EDIT: In looking at the specifics of where this should be placed "officially", standard play doesn't use map rolls at all so it doesn't really fit in the FAQ. It's better placed in the setup section of a future edition of the Floor Rules.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #8: Step by Step Setup Rough proposal.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:42 am 
Really Cool Alien from a Cantina
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Thanks for the answers Sithborg and NN.

Any thoughts to this previous idea:

Jester007 wrote:
Ok, would giving a semi-errata for TI to change the wording to say, "During setup, after Reinforcements are revealed....." be enough to clarify the interaction?


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #8: Step by Step Setup Rough proposal.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:55 am 
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nvm already answered

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #8: Step by Step Setup Rough proposal.
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:36 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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Some of the main points from this thread (in case you don't want to read the whole thing):

* When Reinforcements and Telepathic Insight say "during setup, after seeing your opponent's squad" it really means "before setup, immediately after seeing your opponent's squad" (and before map roll). I interpret other abilities with the same wording to have the same timing.
* TI comes immediately after Reinforcements. Based on this ruling, other "deferred squadbuilding" like the first half of Bribery goes with Reinforcements. I put everything else with the same wording (e.g. Con Artist) simultaneous with Telepathic Insight.


I'm waking this thread up from the dead just to point out that this thread was used in part to build the detailed pre-game and pre-round procedures:

http://www.bloomilk.com/Forums/default. ... ts&t=14085


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