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 Post subject: Simultaneous Effects during Set-up
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:17 am 
Big Bad Brad
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Came up tonight:

My opponent had Yammosk.

I had Nute (reins 20)

He had no CE's to copy.

I wanted to bring in San.

Could he copy San's CE?

I know Reinforcements are revealed at the exact same time and that was my only precedent so I assume that he would copy and I would reveal at the same time as well, and thus he could not Copy San's CE. I ruled opposite though, just to make it an enjoyable game for him

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 Post subject: Re: Simultaneous Effects during Set-up
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:32 am 
Death Star Designers
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They are simultaneous, I don't see much of an issue of you choosing to use it before Reinforcements or after. You would have to declare it, so you couldn't change it.

The counter-arguement would be that since they happen at the same time, would technically mean that you are choosing as you are revealing Reinforcements, technically you could only copy based on the base squad. Overall, I think the first option is more correct, as well as just better overall in terms of headaches for players and judges.

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 Post subject: Re: Simultaneous Effects during Set-up
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:21 pm 
Unnamed Wookiee
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I came up with similar problem, Lobot with Ozzel against Yammosk. Player with Lobot wants the other player to choose one of his CEs before he adds his reinforcements (co he can add activations, if opponent chooses Ozzel's CE, or different tech, if he chooses another CE). I beg for a definitive rulling, it is quite annoying to argue about.


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 Post subject: Re: Simultaneous Effects during Set-up
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:26 pm 
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LukeCZ wrote:
I came up with similar problem, Lobot with Ozzel against Yammosk. Player with Lobot wants the other player to choose one of his CEs before he adds his reinforcements (co he can add activations, if opponent chooses Ozzel's CE, or different tech, if he chooses another CE). I beg for a definitive rulling, it is quite annoying to argue about.


They occur at the same time, so the acting player would choose the order. In otherwords, I would definitely allow the Vong player to take a CE brought in via reinforcements. There is no logical reason that they would be restricted to not using their selection at any time during the very step they are supposed to do so.

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 Post subject: Re: Simultaneous Effects during Set-up
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:39 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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billiv15 wrote:
They occur at the same time, so the acting player would choose the order. In otherwords, I would definitely allow the Vong player to take a CE brought in via reinforcements. There is no logical reason that they would be restricted to not using their selection at any time during the very step they are supposed to do so.



But who's the acting player?

When both players have reinforcements, they have to pick and reveal them at the same time. The "Acting player" can't choose to have his opponent reveal first, then reveal his. So why would this be allowed with the Yammosk? He has to pick his CE to copy and I'd have to pick my reinforcements (both in secret). Then we reveal our choices at the same time, so how would there be that CE (from Reinforcements) to copy?

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 Post subject: Re: Simultaneous Effects during Set-up
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:50 pm 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
billiv15 wrote:
They occur at the same time, so the acting player would choose the order. In otherwords, I would definitely allow the Vong player to take a CE brought in via reinforcements. There is no logical reason that they would be restricted to not using their selection at any time during the very step they are supposed to do so.



But who's the acting player?

When both players have reinforcements, they have to pick and reveal them at the same time. The "Acting player" can't choose to have his opponent reveal first, then reveal his. So why would this be allowed with the Yammosk? He has to pick his CE to copy and I'd have to pick my reinforcements (both in secret). Then we reveal our choices at the same time, so how would there be that CE (from Reinforcements) to copy?


Because choosing reinforcements is the same action for both players, and technically is the exact same portion of a step (like resolving override where the ending of one and beginning of another cannot be subdivided). However, TI is not the same thing, so the acting player would be the person with the Yam - and therefore, that player could choose to resolve reinforcements before TI.

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 Post subject: Re: Simultaneous Effects during Set-up
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:59 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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billiv15 wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
billiv15 wrote:
They occur at the same time, so the acting player would choose the order. In otherwords, I would definitely allow the Vong player to take a CE brought in via reinforcements. There is no logical reason that they would be restricted to not using their selection at any time during the very step they are supposed to do so.



But who's the acting player?

When both players have reinforcements, they have to pick and reveal them at the same time. The "Acting player" can't choose to have his opponent reveal first, then reveal his. So why would this be allowed with the Yammosk? He has to pick his CE to copy and I'd have to pick my reinforcements (both in secret). Then we reveal our choices at the same time, so how would there be that CE (from Reinforcements) to copy?


Because choosing reinforcements is the same action for both players, and technically is the exact same portion of a step (like resolving override where the ending of one and beginning of another cannot be subdivided). However, TI is not the same thing, so the acting player would be the person with the Yam - and therefore, that player could choose to resolve reinforcements before TI.


Where is this? I have never seen a breakdown of steps during set-up.

Is the person with the Yammosk always the acting player? Or will there be times where the acting player is the one with reinforcements?

I could see this argument if the acting player is the one choosing who sets up first, so if the one with Reinforcements has this choice then he forces the Vong player to set-up first and vice versa. But the advantage always going to the player with the Yammosk. Absolutely not!

Honestly, though the interactions are pretty few. Sep Reinforcements with San Hill. Garm with Bothan Nobles. Most of the Fringe ones that get played won't help the Vong, 1 or 2 at best and only from odd squads.

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 Post subject: Re: Simultaneous Effects during Set-up
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 5:03 pm 
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Maybe it's time for a setup break step by step breakdown.


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 Post subject: Re: Simultaneous Effects during Set-up
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:16 pm 
Unnamed Wookiee
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
He has to pick his CE to copy and I'd have to pick my reinforcements (both in secret). Then we reveal our choices at the same time, so how would there be that CE (from Reinforcements) to copy?


I like this, Yammosk player can write the CE down to a paper, and after the other player adds his reinforcements, reveal the paper with copied CE. No advantage on any side


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 Post subject: Re: Simultaneous Effects during Set-up
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:35 pm 
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See I Would assume that you would not be able to choose anything that wasn't in the base squad.

It is similar to having to pick reinforcements before you roll for map.

TI has the same wording as reinforcements so I would say that it is before you bring reinforcements (actually while you were doing it before reinforcements were revealed) is when you would choose (yammosk would be choosing at the same time as opp was choosing reinforcements) so the reinforcements wouldn't be there yet for the yammosk to choose.

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 Post subject: Re: Simultaneous Effects during Set-up
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:48 pm 
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urbanjedi wrote:
See I Would assume that you would not be able to choose anything that wasn't in the base squad.

It is similar to having to pick reinforcements before you roll for map.

TI has the same wording as reinforcements so I would say that it is before you bring reinforcements (actually while you were doing it before reinforcements were revealed) is when you would choose (yammosk would be choosing at the same time as opp was choosing reinforcements) so the reinforcements wouldn't be there yet for the yammosk to choose.


There are not multiple steps to reinforcements. It is one action. And as with most things, you cannot interrupt an action unless it specifically says you can do so (djem so for example). Set up is a series of actions to a degree, but there is no designated breakdown of the individual acts within it. As it's written, TI happens at the same time as Reinforcements, not before, and not after, which means simultaneous effect rule enters into it.

And as always, the acting player is the person with it. I see no reason within the rules that would suggest the person with the Yam cannot take a Reinforcement CE if they choose to wait until after reinforcements are revealed to name it.

Again, the precedent for this I believe is the ending/beginning override and door resolution. You cannot interrupt the override resolution and even though it's multiple actions, it's considered one step. Choosing reinforcements is also one step - even though there are mutiple actions.

And once reinforcements are chosen, is it not still the set up time that the Yam requires? Of course it is, because you have not moved into a new step in the sequence, and you have not resolved TI. There is nothing the opposing player can do to force you to choose before revealing his/her reinforcements in my opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: Simultaneous Effects during Set-up
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:56 pm 
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Then why do we pick our reinforcements in secret? Why wouldn't the acting player make the other player pick first or vice versa? And why do we pick reinforcements before we roll for map?

Scenario
We sit down and you have reinforcements and I have Yammosk and reinforcements. I can't make you pick reinforcements first so I have to pick reinforcements at the same time as you (which is also the same time I have to pick Yammosk). I can't split up my choices (ie pick reinforcements and reveal them and then yammosk after because it is simultaneous). We must pick at the same time.

So while you are picking reinforcements I am picking reinfforcements and Yammosk target (your reinforcements are not out yet so I cannot chose from them).

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 Post subject: Re: Simultaneous Effects during Set-up
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:59 pm 
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Actually the reason you can't is that what if both players have Yammosk and Reinforcements.

One player says I want to do TI after the other says before. That can't happen since both have to do it at the same time as each other so it would be done at the same time as reinforcements (and neither player has their reinforcements available to choose from)

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 Post subject: Re: Simultaneous Effects during Set-up
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:09 pm 
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During setup, after seeing your opponent's squad, you may choose one commander effect. This character gains this commander effect and any faction specific effects become Yuuzhan Vong specific effects.

The timing of it is the same as reinforcements. They are not done together as UJ was implying, they occur during the same step in the set up process, which does in fact have a clear order of steps. TI and Reinforcement choosing are seperate actions, therefor they must be resolved independantly, not conflated (nothing in our game allows you to break apart actions with other seperate actions as I've stated - unless it specifically says so).

IMO - there's no reason to ever not choose Yam target after reinforcements, and I'd simply get in that habit. Both players (if both had TI) would choose at the same time - even writing their choice down to reveal at the same time if they want to - but not mixed into the reinforcement action - that would be entirely wrong.

The only possible ruling would be either totally before, or totally after - but given the above wording is exactly the same as reinforcements, my ruling would be that Simul rules are in effect for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Simultaneous Effects during Set-up
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:21 pm 
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So when would you do it if both players had Yammosk and both had reinforcements and one wanted to do it before and one wanted to do it after reinforcements? I assume they have to do it at the same time (ie one can't yammosk before and the other after).

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 Post subject: Re: Simultaneous Effects during Set-up
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:23 pm 
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And I thought it was kinda cool that you could possibly bring in a commander that the yammosk couldn't steal if you wanted with reinforcements based on my interpretation of the rules (ie setup).

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 Post subject: Re: Simultaneous Effects during Set-up
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:24 pm 
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But before setup there is no acting player so simultaneous effects isn't clear. There only becomes an acting player once the game has started.

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 Post subject: Re: Simultaneous Effects during Set-up
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:32 pm 
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Quite simply, it's ambiguous, and in similar older cases with WotC we just made a judgement call and issued pseudo-errata for it via the FAQ. The designers of TI should decide whether it occurs before or after Reinforcements are revealed (seems obvious to me which they intend) and then I'll write up the FAQ question and it's done.

Regarding both players having Yammosk, if there's any tactical implication to the selection order standing precident for such cases is each player makes his choice secretly and reveals simultaneously.

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 Post subject: Re: Simultaneous Effects during Set-up
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:58 pm 
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Thanks NN

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 Post subject: Re: Simultaneous Effects during Set-up
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:13 pm 
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Tell me if I'm wrong here, but if you are trying to get keep the Vong from stealing Ozzels CE, can't you just go with a 12pt Star Destroyer Officer and Admiral Gilad Pellaeon? Pellaeon's CE doesn't happen until AFTER setup, which means Reinforcements AND Telepathic Insight have gone as they are used DURING setup. Then you could just swap out the SDO for Ozzel. The SDO's CE won't help the vong so you're safe there. Of course you are still left with a 16pt Pellaeon in your squad. But it might be worth it to keep the Vong from getting tempo control. Comments?

Roy

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