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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:32 pm 
Death Star Designers
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Jedicartographer wrote:
I know Josh has always labeled his maps.


And I haven't always succeeded, either. I think us SWM gamers have a bad habit of renaming maps... which is why we need lists like the ones in this thread.

Honestly, the only way I can keep track of all the SWM maps now is to keep a folder with images of them all; mostly saved from Vassal.


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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:11 pm 
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Having played on some of the maps today. I have to say I really, really like Spynet HQ. I need to play it a bit more, but it is a fun map.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:36 am 
Major Tierce
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Hopefully Brad got some good input from our Capital City Champs

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:45 am 
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urbanjedi wrote:
Hopefully Brad got some good input from our Capital City Champs


Well, the big one I was concerned about was already taken care of before I got there. Other than that I didn't get much of a chance to wander around and check, nor would I have know who selected the map. I may have dropped the ball too, I should have had a sheet to pass out where people recorded their matchups and who won map. While I can get who placed where and what their map choice was, it won't be clear whether it was an abusive combo or not since we have no idea what map was played. I for instance didn't get to play on my map at all. So any info I wanted to study with that particular combo was lost.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:17 pm 
Black Sun Thug
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Can anyone tell me where can I order these maps from? I have a few of the earlier map packs but would love some more maps.

Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:07 pm 
Master of the Order
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DarthJoe8 wrote:
Can anyone tell me where can I order these maps from? I have a few of the earlier map packs but would love some more maps.

Thanks


Armored Cartographer's maps - http://www.adventurers-atlas.com (also available from Miniature Market)

Chris West's maps - http://www.mapsofmastery.com (also available from Miniature Market)


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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:50 pm 
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Thanks, Swinefeld!

I'd also like to mention that if you like my posters at mapsofmastery.com and decide to order them, you can get free shipping on them (and three new posters) by backing my current kickstarter project, if it meets the goal by the end of this month:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ma ... er-map-set

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:49 pm 
Moff Disra
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swinefeld wrote:
DarthJoe8 wrote:
Can anyone tell me where can I order these maps from? I have a few of the earlier map packs but would love some more maps.

Thanks


Armored Cartographer's maps - http://www.adventurers-atlas.com (also available from Miniature Market)

I think the restricted map list is well done. Follow the link above to get those maps.


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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:05 pm 
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Engineer wrote:
I think the restricted map list is well done.


I'm afraid I can't agree; I feel there are several good, competitive maps missing from the Restricted list. I tracked it down tonight to see which of my maps made the cut, and was rather...disheartened, to say the least.

Seriously? Not one?
And I had to find this out on my own?

I'm going to walk away from the keyboard for a while to avoid saying something I shouldn't, but suffice it to say: this discovery feels rather akin to a slap in the face.

But hey...at least folks looking for tournament-legal maps won't need to follow two different links.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:12 pm 
Ugnaught Master!
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Chris, this was addressed on the SHNN tonight, and it had nothing to do with you or your work. I won't get into it, since it is Dean's place to say why maps do or don't make the Restricted List, which let me remind you, really only limits major tournies like Regionals and the Championships. This was not a slap in the face to your work, though.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:51 pm 
The One True Sith Lord
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I guess you are wanting to know my thinking.

Chris,

None of what was done was meant to be a slap in the face. I dont get the luxury of approaching picking maps for the restricted list by who made them. I have to approach them from the place of what is fair.

I have to see if the playing field will be as level as possible so that an opponent/player may not use a map to the point of abuse to gain a win. My job is to protect the fairness of the game to insure that a fair outcome will occur by a player's skill. I want to avoid luck of dice and abuse of map as a strategy choice. The same reasons that last year we changed the scoring system, the gambit rule and always are trying to kill slow play as a strategy.

So I have to be very cautious in my choices for maps. I got burned badly two years ago and have learned from my mistakes.

When I look at a map I need to know that a lancer or yobuck wont destroy an opponent because of the map. I need to know that a melee based squad has a chance for victory and for the same reasons a shooting squad has a chance to win.

I saw your post on facebook and I am sorry you are disappointed. There was nothing personal in my choices. You make wonderful maps and your exodus starship is one of my favorite maps i own. That being said my personal tastes dont get much weight when making a decision about the maps worthiness of restricted. It is all about fairness.

I think you are a very talented artist. I think what hurts your maps more than anything is it seems like you dont play star wars miniatures. I dont know this for a fact but I am making an educated guess based on the layouts of your maps you have created. This is not a fault but it makes hard to understand what the top level players are looking at when they see a map. A snowspeeder flying across the map and wreaking havoc. a Lancer being pawned and then taking a turn to wipe out an entire squad on turn one. These are the things that I am watching for. A wide open space that a melee sqaud cannot survive in.

I am sorry you feel like I have personally wronged you but there was zero intent to do so. I make my deicisions on the maps feeling like I have the weight of our entire game on my shoulders. I made a wrong decision two years ago because I wanted to give in and make sure we had some new maps to play on. That was the wrong decision to make. I blew it then and I am trying not to repeat it.

With that said I am sorry you feel hurt by it. I am sorry you thought I should discuss it with you. I dont discuss my map decisions with anyone. I discuss maps with folks but when it comes to making the decisions I make them. Realistically half of the maps on the restricted list are yours. Granted thru Wotc but they are yours. I would love to see you make maps for the restricted list but I have always felt like when you have posted something it was a bit too finished for me to say he I dont think that floor plan is good for competitive play. I would love to see you send a location and an theme idea to someone like Deri, Aaron or Bill and say hey can you give me a floor plan that would make restricted and I will art it up and make it beautiful like I always do. I dont know who all you talk to about these things but I know they would have the right ideas.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:25 am 
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Dvader, It may not have been meant as such, but saying it wasn't a slap doesn't seem to make the sting go away.

Some of my maps that were skipped over for the restricted list were vetted by leading members of the SWM-playing community during the design stages, and fine-tuned for championship level play--even on this very forum. When I look at some of the maps left on the list from the WotC era, and compare them to the ones that got snubbed (my opinion, but i stand by it), I see a clear discrepancy.

It's not my intention to start a debate about the merits of each map, but I'll give one example to illustrate my point, and then let it rest: If the community was presented with Rancor Pit for playtesting today, there's no way it would make the Restricted List. Yet it stays, when more fun (and more importantly: more balanced) maps get set aside. There's something wrong with that.

As for the fact that the Standard list can still be used in tournaments, that's true. But I can't tell you how many times I've heard comments like "I don't need another map not to play SWM on. If it's not on the restricted list, why bother?" (That's an actual quote from a couple of weeks ago, by the way.) Ultimately, people don't care much whether a map is on the Standard or Open list--the Restricted list defines Championship-level play, and that's where competitive players' attention is for most of the year. This floor rules update just made it that much harder for me to stay in business.

One final point I'd like to make clear here, in case I'm faulted for overlooking it: I approve of all of the JC/AG7 maps that did make the cut; I think they deserve to be on there, and Matt and Josh deserve the recognition and the support to their business. My disappointment is not based on the nine maps of theirs that did get selected; it has everything to do with the total absence of my own.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:23 am 
Moff Disra
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Mapmaker wrote:
Dvader, It may not have been meant as such, but saying it wasn't a slap doesn't seem to make the sting go away.

ok
Mapmaker wrote:
Some of my maps that were skipped over for the restricted list were vetted by leading members of the SWM-playing community during the design stages, and fine-tuned for championship level play--even on this very forum. When I look at some of the maps left on the list from the WotC era, and compare them to the ones that got snubbed (my opinion, but i stand by it), I see a clear discrepancy.

I wonder about the "leading members" of the SWM playing community. In my personal opinion, there are only 8 ish players at the most I would feel comfortable with laying out maps. Just being a member who plays alot is not enough.

Mapmaker wrote:
As for the fact that the Standard list can still be used in tournaments, that's true. But I can't tell you how many times I've heard comments like "I don't need another map not to play SWM on. If it's not on the restricted list, why bother?" (That's an actual quote from a couple of weeks ago, by the way.) Ultimately, people don't care much whether a map is on the Standard or Open list--the Restricted list defines Championship-level play, and that's where competitive players' attention is for most of the year. This floor rules update just made it that much harder for me to stay in business.

Hey, I get quoted. :)
This is not about staying in business or not, but about making good restricted list maps. Don't design maps in a vacuum.

Mapmaker wrote:
One final point I'd like to make clear here, in case I'm faulted for overlooking it: I approve of all of the JC/AG7 maps that did make the cut; I think they deserve to be on there, and Matt and Josh deserve the recognition and the support to their business. My disappointment is not based on the nine maps of theirs that did get selected; it has everything to do with the total absence of my own.

I'm starting to see the business comments thread. You make nice looking maps. With some "better" input, they can also be good for competitive play.
I understand that the fantasy maps might not be produced after all that work. This has nothing to do with SWM.
SWM maps do sell.

I'm helping with some War at Sea maps. Those folks will take just about any well designed map. Laying out the islands is very important and only players (not map designers) should do this.

I'm trying to let you know, each maps is considered on an individual play basis and WOTC had a tough time getting this correct.


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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:33 am 
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Dean, thanks for chiming in. I'm willing to accept that there was no insult intended here.

That doesn't change my feelings on the matter, though. For months (years, actually) you and others have been talking about how we need to get 3rd party maps approved for Championship-level play, not just to enrich the tournament environment but to give the cartographers a reason to keep making maps--and when that finally happens, all of my work gets shuffled into the secondary category? That is extremely disheartening.

You may stand by your decision and assert that the Standard and Open lists are where those maps belong--that they aren't good enough to see Championship play--but that in itself is a bit of a snub to myself and those who put their stamp of approval on those maps. I trust that it isn't intended, and it may or may not be deserved--that's a matter of individual opinion, after all--but it stings nonetheless.

dnemiller wrote:
I think what hurts your maps more than anything is it seems like you dont play star wars miniatures. I dont know this for a fact but I am making an educated guess based on the layouts of your maps you have created.

I was playing it long before you were (before it was on store shelves, even), and have even played in your presence, but we've discussed this before. Suffice it to say that I do play, just not as often, and rarely competitively. That is a shortfall in competitive design, and it's why I pay so much attention to the opinions and suggestions of community members here, and why I gather feedback from this community and make revisions before sending my SWM maps to the printer.

Swamp Caves, for example, was refined by this community until I was assured it was a solid competitive map and had the sort of gameplay balance that was needed in a tournament. Badlands was reviewed by members of this community in private, and changes were made in accordance with that feedback--but it didn't even make the Standard list. When Offworld Shipping Center came out, I saw many posts and got many comments from players wishing that it was on the restricted list. But a year and a half later, it's not.

Finally, there's the Cargo Docks, which after thorough playtesting was recommended to you for inclusion on the list, and it was stripped out as well.

dnemiller wrote:
I made a wrong decision two years ago because I wanted to give in and make sure we had some new maps to play on. That was the wrong decision to make. I blew it then and I am trying not to repeat it.

Still, you more than doubled the Restricted list. (Which, by the way, is not a bad thing in my opinion; the maps that were added deserved to be there. I only take issue with the ones that are missing.)

dnemiller wrote:
I am sorry you thought I should discuss it with you. I dont discuss my map decisions with anyone.

I don't think that you should have, necessarily, but I've seen others on here in recent weeks discussing the final recommendations as if they had seen it (and they had), and no one thought to tell me that I might be in for some disappointment; I had to find out on my own, and it was a bit of a shock.

dnemiller wrote:
Realistically half of the maps on the restricted list are yours. Granted thru Wotc but they are yours.

Actually, not in the slightest; I didn't design the layout of any of the maps left on it, I just illustrated them. I did design Freight Transit Station for WotC, but even that got demoted.

Look, I'm not going to whine and mope about my injured pride beyond today, and I may even keep making sci-fi maps with this game in mind. It's still a part of my business plan and the game remains one of my personal interests. There are still a lot of cool maps I want to make. I just needed to get this off my chest.

I sincerely hope the new Restricted list works out well for the game.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:52 am 
The One True Sith Lord
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well Chris my question would be who are you asking about your maps? The design.

Your Cargo docks was not bad so to say but I have to consider the play of huges.... doesnt matter is they are not totally popular... I have to consider them. One of the things that happened last floor rules was rigid was taken away to get more maps in. We have always had to consider huges.

I know tons of people play this game but very few get what is needed for restricted list. It is not a slight on those people but just more of a fact.

It kind follows the big fish theory. someone plays the game a ton in Maine (lets say). He rules the Maine Game. He knows what maps are good and what squad work. Then this person shows up at Gencon. He has no idea what other people are playing and he gets his head handed to him because he was unaware of the total game that exists.

I have to work my map choices based on not only pieces that are currently being played but what pieces I think will show up because a map is on the list.

When Teth was on the list I correctly called that map and the exact squad choice for it. It showed up at Gencon in force.

The idea is to try keep the game open and fair. So people can feel like they can play any faction on any restricted map and have a chance.

Destiny of the force was a set designed to correct the faction flaws from WotC. It leveled the playing field a lot.

I did not say you dont play the game. I said I dont believe you play it a lot (I am not trying to crucify you with that statement). It just seems by looking at your map design that you are not used to facing some of the squads that are abusive. If I was a map designer I am afraid everyone of my maps would look the same. They would be trying to avoid every abusive movment breaker. I just dont see this in your design. If you would like me to reccommend someone to design a floor plan and I had to give you one name then I would say Deri aka fingerandteeth. He gets the game completely. He would probably be more than happy to help out. So would others.

The fact is everyone has an opinion. That doesnt make theirs right or wrong but generally it is biased. I over the years have learned to leave my bias out. I have had to seperate my own desires. I am more interested in the fair play aspect than anything else.

Look I have zero problem with us having 200 restricted maps ont he list. They just need to meet a criteria. I am not trying to rain on anyone's parade.

I will disagree with you about Rancor Pen. I still think it belongs on the Restricted List. Your not knowing why it still belongs tells me a lot. The map is not perfect but if you have played on it then you should know why it still belongs on the List. I just think maybe you should get some help on the floor plans or I dont know play minis against a more diverse group of players that are more competitive in nature.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:17 am 
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dnemiller wrote:
well Chris my question would be who are you asking about your maps?

I'll answer this in private, since I don't know if they would like to be drawn into this discussion.

dnemiller wrote:
I did not say you dont play the game. I said I dont believe you play it a lot.

Your words were "it seems like you dont play star wars miniatures." You didn't say anything about "a lot". That said, I didn't infer any crucifixion in your statement anyway, so no worries. :)

Anyway, what this boils down to is that you feel none of my maps are good enough for the competitive game to be on the restricted list. Not one of them, even when filling the list with more third-party maps than WotC maps. That's fine; you can own that opinion and you're entitled to it. You're certainly not alone in feeling that way, either. I don't have to like it, or agree, but I will need to come to terms with it and move on.

I just find the whole thing very discouraging, for the reasons I have described.

As for Rancor Pit, I also stand by my statement in that situation. If it was introduced today, it would not receive enough consideration to be put on the Restricted list. I don't think it would even have been seriously playtested. That's not to say that it's a bad map or uncompetitive, but simply that when compared to the range of other maps that are available, people looking at it would see that bottleneck and simply dismiss it from consideration for championship-level play. Perhaps that would be unfair to it, but I think the same sort of thing has happened to other maps this month, so I feel pretty confident of my assertion.

Edit: In the light of day, I recognize that I'm blowing this a bit out of proportion. While my feelings on the subject haven't changed, I know that, ultimately, this isn't as big of a deal as it first seemed.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:49 am 
Master of the Order
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Wow....holy crap.

I only skimmed over the map list, and it didn't jump out at me right away that all of Chris' were missing from the Restricted List, but frankly, I have to say I'm completely shocked, and even somewhat appalled.

I don't blame Chris for feeling like he got slapped in the face.

From 3 or so years ago, when maps like Ossus were hitting the shelves, until now, all Chris has done is ask for more and more and more input, and showed off his work ahead of time, and asked for input.

I know for a fact that I gave input on half a dozen of his latest maps before they ever got printed.

I guess I'm just flabergasted that Offworld Shipping Center didn't make the cut. I can't for the life of me figure out what's abusive on that map, that's any different than things like Rancor Pit or Ruined Base. I can sort of understand Cargo Docks and Swamp Caves not making it, but.....wow.

Needless to say, I was extremely excited when I first glanced at the map list, but it was a cursory, very quick look. Now that I look closer, I am astounded that Bothan Spynet made the cut and NONE of Chris' did. IMO, Spynet is a HORRIBLE map for Restricted play. There's no way that it's better than some of Chris' options.

But, at this point, it is what it is. I'll certainly fight for a revision come July though. Perhaps the Regionals will show that.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:23 am 
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I started a new thread hoping to lead to getting rid of the confusion surrounding the differing names of maps. Mainly what they are called on the legal map list vs what name they are sold under.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10546


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:25 am 
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LoboStele wrote:
Wow....holy crap.

I only skimmed over the map list, and it didn't jump out at me right away that all of Chris' were missing from the Restricted List, but frankly, I have to say I'm completely shocked, and even somewhat appalled.

I don't blame Chris for feeling like he got slapped in the face.

From 3 or so years ago, when maps like Ossus were hitting the shelves, until now, all Chris has done is ask for more and more and more input, and showed off his work ahead of time, and asked for input.

I know for a fact that I gave input on half a dozen of his latest maps before they ever got printed.

I guess I'm just flabergasted that Offworld Shipping Center didn't make the cut. I can't for the life of me figure out what's abusive on that map, that's any different than things like Rancor Pit or Ruined Base. I can sort of understand Cargo Docks and Swamp Caves not making it, but.....wow.

Needless to say, I was extremely excited when I first glanced at the map list, but it was a cursory, very quick look. Now that I look closer, I am astounded that Bothan Spynet made the cut and NONE of Chris' did. IMO, Spynet is a HORRIBLE map for Restricted play. There's no way that it's better than some of Chris' options.

But, at this point, it is what it is. I'll certainly fight for a revision come July though. Perhaps the Regionals will show that.



Lol, so we go from calling out a slap in the face to slapping someone else in the face? Lol, if I had a heavily invested opinion in the work I put into this I'd be a little more offended ;)

I knew people's opinions would play a part in this when I volunteered to do the work, so I'm really very unconcerned at this point. People are welcome to disagree, but let me tell you the only one's disagreements I'm really going to listen to (and/or be offended by) in this are Dean's-because well, he has the final say- and ummm....let me see...oh yeah, David Weeks--because well he was the only one besides me who put any real work into playtesting these maps.

The reason Chris is upset is entirely my fault. I had know for over 2 months that I was only suggesting 2 of his maps for Restricted, and over a month ago I decided to drop one of those when Dean told me I would not get a revision after Regionals. Matt was constantly asking for any info I felt I could give him, Chris did not and I took this as a sign of disinterest in my work. That was my bad.

The criteria given to me by Jason Tanner has a level of subjectivity to it, in that a single map could meet all the criteria to the loosest sense of the word or the strictest. I followed no set bar in that spectrum as I also had to analyze squad choices (ranging from simply melee/ranged all the way to very specific choices). In other words I couldn't flood the list with Ranged favored maps or vice versa, door-heavy etc etc.

So in my analysis, I first looked at every single map for an "at-a-glance" analysis. Some I could look at and tell right away they were no good. Those were thrown into the open pile and I usually didn't look at again. The rest were put into another pile. I then played through every single map once with the same squads, a melee heavy NR levitating squad and a shooter heavy Imp swap squad.

From there I had a better analysis of each map, specifically what type of squads might best favor each map, and I began to separate that pile into 4 separate piles. Etc, Etc, Etc.

At one point I had 20 something maps in the "Restricted" pile but I chose to continue to eliminate maps. That was my job right? To find the maps most suitable for Restricted play without favoring or creating a squad imbalance. So thus Uniqueness became a criteria as well.

So honestly, comments of Map X is terrible and Map Y is better tell me that I did the job I volunteered for. To me that tells me that not every map suits Player A's playstyle. I can almost bet if every one who was complaining (outside of Chris) would take a step back and anaylyze it in that manner, they'd probably agree with my choices a lot more. In other words, you like Map Y but I'll bet you'd find a map that suits the exact same or close to playing style that does it just a little better.

I do believe this is my longest post ever!

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:34 am 
The One True Sith Lord
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LoboStele wrote:
Wow....holy crap.

I only skimmed over the map list, and it didn't jump out at me right away that all of Chris' were missing from the Restricted List, but frankly, I have to say I'm completely shocked, and even somewhat appalled.

I don't blame Chris for feeling like he got slapped in the face.

From 3 or so years ago, when maps like Ossus were hitting the shelves, until now, all Chris has done is ask for more and more and more input, and showed off his work ahead of time, and asked for input.

I know for a fact that I gave input on half a dozen of his latest maps before they ever got printed.

I guess I'm just flabergasted that Offworld Shipping Center didn't make the cut. I can't for the life of me figure out what's abusive on that map, that's any different than things like Rancor Pit or Ruined Base. I can sort of understand Cargo Docks and Swamp Caves not making it, but.....wow.

Needless to say, I was extremely excited when I first glanced at the map list, but it was a cursory, very quick look. Now that I look closer, I am astounded that Bothan Spynet made the cut and NONE of Chris' did. IMO, Spynet is a HORRIBLE map for Restricted play. There's no way that it's better than some of Chris' options.

But, at this point, it is what it is. I'll certainly fight for a revision come July though. Perhaps the Regionals will show that.


I am going to assume that maybe you posted before you thought this one out. I dont know.

Since the Floor Rules updates have been done and I have spent time analyzing maps I have always managed to upset people. Well it is just part of the job. I have never had to worry about offending a mapmaker until yesterday. Not because I wanted to but because I stuck to the same principles I have always used in selecting a map. I approach from the fairness of the game for both parties playing on it.

Posts like this wont win any friends or get you browning points though.

The July revision may come and quite honestly about the only thing I see happening is me maybe taking 1-2 maps off the list. Unless there is a new map I dont see me adding any.

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