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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:12 pm 
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FWIW, tournaments like the upcoming one is a perfect place to test them.

You really won't see the real lop sided maps until a tournament. It took the thursday tourney for me to realise how suited trainstation was to my squad (and detrimental to others).

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:47 pm 
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Also, it may not be entirely clear from his comments that Brad used the same criteria on the custom maps as I did for the WotC maps. Basically, what you mentioned and there was no desire for any particular number as far as I can tell, just yes/no about whether it met the criteria.

Of course, there's always a bit of subjectivity particularly in the "squad abuse" criteria, but after comparing notes we independently came up with virtually the same list of Restricted maps.

It's certainly possible something has slipped through that's exploitable, but I don't think it's because of Brad's methodology in preparing his suggested list (which is nothing like what appears in the first post of this thread--no insult intended to JC.)

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:43 pm 
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I agree with Brad's choices here. He used strong criteria, and added all the maps that fit it. We now have 6 months, including Regionals to identify any problem maps. That's the way this process should be done.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:18 pm 
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I say as long as one map isn't dominant (either a particular squad/map combo or squad type/map combo, that more is better. IT will let the player skill shine even brighter when instead of having to prepare for 6 maps you have to prepare for 18 (or 16 or 15 or whatever the number is). With the 6 current maps "everyone" knows the lines and the safe squares, etc. I think currently that in most games players sit down look at each other's squads and know almost right away who is favored by map/setup choice and squad. This is partly because we all know how games on the maps play out (ie rush for gambit, sit back and wait, etc). Adding in new maps changes the equation. For instance I now that Deri's 2009 squad on Train station is almost unbeatable but is it the same on Cargo docks or Smuggler's moon or on some other map that we haven't played/tested extensively? I think that players should be rewarded for knowing their maps and the more maps there are the more it will allow players to fine tune their squads and make more well-rounded squads overall as they have no idea what map they might be on (unlike last year where there were 6 choices). It will change squadbuilding some as peopel try to beat the system but I don't think that we will have the problem of Teth (or KMG) beacuse we are so much further along in what constitutes a fair map than WOTC ever was and we have mapmakers catering to our needs for competitive play and not to corporate needs of looking pretty or selling copies.



Also Dagobah is the swamp caves
Loading docks are cargo docks (and yes I agree that we need to be more consistent in what we call maps)
and no smugglers moon is not pictrured. Unlikely any current players have it but it will be on the back of the new theed map when it is released (unfortunately not in time for my Capital City Champs Tourney)

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:20 pm 
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Smuggler's Base is posted. Look for it in a post by TINT

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:52 pm 
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I saw it in a post by Nickname in a thumbnail size but not any bigger (page 2). Is it anywhere else larger sized?

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:32 am 
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urbanjedi wrote:
I saw it in a post by Nickname in a thumbnail size but not any bigger (page 2). Is it anywhere else larger sized?



Vassal :D

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:26 am 
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I feel like I'm missing something terribly obvious, but I can't seem to find a list of the maps that made the official cut at various levels. Can someone point me in the right direction?

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:42 am 
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I don't think the list has been made officially public.

I'd look for it whenever Dean updates the Floor Rules. The only thing you'll find in this thread would be Brad's recommendations.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:29 am 
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I'm not sure even that is here. At least I don't remember seeing it. I think he just sent them privately to Dean for Dean to make the final call so there's no second guessing about any differences.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:54 am 
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Just to clarify some of my previous comments:

First and foremost: Brad - you are doing invaluable work here. I did not mean to indicate otherwise. I mean that really sincerely.

Life has been a little crazy for me the last several months, and I wish I had been here more often to contribute more input. Not that it would have even changed anything, but at least I would have been up to date.

I guess I was having a really tough time trying to figure out which map was which. Having different names, and many of the maps don't have a name printed on them makes it all pretty tough. I spent a lot of time going from the suggested list on The Capital City thread to the actual maps pictured on this thread. And I was still confused on some since the names differ sometimes.

I was with a friend who plays minis as well, and he was so frustrated by figuring out which new maps are what, that he said he doesn't want to even bother. I think this speaks volumes. This could be so overwhelming that we may lose players.

I think organization is the best answer. Let's get our awesome mapmakers on board with this too. Here's what I propose:

Let's get a thread or link (Holocron?) to a place where we can have all the maps. The maps should all have a picture and a UNIFORM name. No more sometimes it's called this, sometimes it's called that. Make an official name. Maps should be listed and grouped in chronological order. (IE - JC Map pack 1: containing these 4 maps, etc.) This would also be helpful for people who may want to buy more map packs. Let's increase the sales for our mapmakers by making it easy and clear how to get them. My friend asked me what map pack a certain map was from, and I had to say, "I don't know. I don't even know the name". If there was ONE easy organized place to go for all this info - it would be GREAT.

Mapmakers: For all future maps - please, label them. Bottom right corner or something, come up with a uniform unmistakable system. Including the maker and what it was released with. Even if it is an abbreviation - that would be so helpful!
Examples:
Badlands - MM FL2 (for Mapmaker's Forsaken Land 2)
Town Hall - JC MEMD (for Jedi Cartographer's Mos Eisley Melt Down).

Heck - I know copyright names are a concern - so even if it were as simple as not having a name but a number:

Mapmaker's "Forsaken Lands" Double-sided Poster Map contains Swamp Caves and Desert Sanctum. But many people refer to Swamp Caves as Dagobah. Can't print Dagobah on the map, but you could print MM FL #1 on the Swamp Caves, and MM FL#2 on the Desert Sanctum. Then when someone makes a map list there would be a definitive reference point, regardless of what name they call it, printed right on the map.

Example:

Legal maps for this tournament will be:
Dagobah (MM FL #1)
Town Hall (JC MEMD #2)
etc.

There would no longer be confusion on what map is what. Uniformly labeled maps. Yes, this would be excellent.

Then we might hear:
"Hey that map is great, I see by the label that it is a part of JC's map pack five. I think I'll go buy it."

As opposed to:
"Hey that map is great, what is it?"
"I don't know"
"How can I get it?"
"Not sure. You could probably dig through several threads online and try and painstakingly match up the name with a picture. Then go through more threads to try and find out what map pack that particular map is part of. Then search even more places to see if you can buy it."
"Never mind"

(Slight paraphrasing, but close to an actual conversation I had)

I still hold the holocron map guide as a shining example of how great a map list could be. Having Common Name,
DCI Name/Legal Formats, and Source is brilliant. Makes it crystal clear for everyone. We could do that with all the new ones, and even add links to buy them. I'm sure our talented mapmakers would love that. I am volunteering to add my take on several of the new maps the way Deri did on many in the Holocron, if that would be helpful.

Let me know what I can do to help to get this map process clear and organized.


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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:18 pm 
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Tim, for what it's worth, we have ALWAYS had the name issue on maps since day 1 with WOTC, because they chose to put the names on the map list for DCI based on names of rooms on the maps, rather than the more commonly accepted names people tend to use. That's why half the time, when somebody mentioned "Imperial Base" it takes me a good 5-10 seconds to realize that they're talking about Throne Room....which is ALSO called Chancellor's Starship sometimes. Oh, and then many of us tend to call the hardboard Starship for some reason, which can be confused with Throne Room/Chancellor's Starship, when the hardboard is really technically called Power Reactor or some such.

I understand, I do.

However....there already IS a place with most of the information you are promoting: right here at Gamers in the Archives. All of the WOTC maps are in there. I think Map Pack 1 is in there as well. Once the new floor rules come out, I am hoping to go back and update those map threads with ALL of the existing custom maps to date. And yes, we include info and links about where to get those maps. Won't do much good for JC's MP1 and 2 since those are out of print and probably out of stock now too. But we can at least point people in JC's direction.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:44 pm 
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I agree with Tim 100% on this. I had to go looking myself for what maps are legal and I have no idea what map packs some of them came from. I wish that info was in this thread with the picture and I hope once the floor rules are updated that we get a map thread for at least the restricted list that has a picture of all the maps and where they are from (ie JC, MM, WOTC, etc).

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:16 pm 
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urbanjedi wrote:
I agree with Tim 100% on this. I had to go looking myself for what maps are legal and I have no idea what map packs some of them came from. I wish that info was in this thread with the picture and I hope once the floor rules are updated that we get a map thread for at least the restricted list that has a picture of all the maps and where they are from (ie JC, MM, WOTC, etc).


Glad you do.

Aaron - I was talking about the new maps.
I know there is info on the old official ones.

And this is something that we as a community can CORRECT in the future that wizards didn't do as well as they could have.

Labeled, coded maps from now on. No confusion anymore.

As far as organizing the new custom maps,
I think if we put the effort in now on the new maps, it would encourage more people to use them, which will help for playtesting, BEFORE the new floor rules come out.




Let me know if I can help


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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:20 pm 
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TimmerB123 wrote:
urbanjedi wrote:
I agree with Tim 100% on this. I had to go looking myself for what maps are legal and I have no idea what map packs some of them came from. I wish that info was in this thread with the picture and I hope once the floor rules are updated that we get a map thread for at least the restricted list that has a picture of all the maps and where they are from (ie JC, MM, WOTC, etc).


Glad you do.

Aaron - I was talking about the new maps.
I know there is info on the old official ones.

And this is something that we as a community can CORRECT in the future that wizards didn't do as well as they could have.

Labeled, coded maps from now on. No confusion anymore.

As far as organizing the new custom maps,
I think if we put the effort in now on the new maps, it would encourage more people to use them, which will help for playtesting, BEFORE the new floor rules come out.


Let me know if I can help


Really, most of the playtesting has been done. The list was released to Jason just because it was close enough and I wanted to see a bit of a shakedown. It wasn't released for true playtesting purposes.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:24 pm 
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Aaron - I was talking about the new maps.
I know there is info on the old official ones.


Yeah, I know. That's why I said I was intending to update all of it once the new Map List is made official.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:59 pm 
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For what it's worth, I've always titled my maps. I even started putting clearer titles on WotC's maps once they gave me enough creative freedom to do so (I had no say in the process with their earlier stuff).

With my posters, the titles can be found on or near the upper-left-hand corner of the poster (when positioned so that the text labels are right-side-up to the reader). They are generally in a larger text than the rest of the map labels.

Each of my double-sided posters also has a separate title that is not printed on the maps, but is used for product identity. My product and individual map titles are as follows:

Mass Transit:
• Exodus-Class Heavy Courier
• Offworld Shipping Center

Forsaken Lands:
• Swamp Caves
• Desert Sanctum

Mass Transit II:
• Cargo Docks
• Offworld Transport Facility

Forsaken Lands II:
• Badlands
• Deep Caverns

For what it's worth, if my current Kickstarter funding drive (at https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mapmaker/deep-vistas-poster-map-set ) is successful, the following three products will be added to my lineup:

Deep Vistas:
• Stalactite Gate
• Chapel of Scarabs

Deep Vistas II:
• Slave Pits
• Dark Elf Courtyard [I may take out the word "elf" before this goes to print, come to think of it.]

Deep Vistas III:
• The Silent Garden
• Chasm Bridge

If you guys need help naming any of WotC's maps, I can tell you what I called them and provide the names given on the project files.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:38 pm 
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Mapmaker wrote:
For what it's worth, I've always titled my maps. I even started putting clearer titles on WotC's maps once they gave me enough creative freedom to do so (I had no say in the process with their earlier stuff).

With my posters, the titles can be found on or near the upper-left-hand corner of the poster (when positioned so that the text labels are right-side-up to the reader). They are generally in a larger text than the rest of the map labels.

Each of my double-sided posters also has a separate title that is not printed on the maps, but is used for product identity. My product and individual map titles are as follows:

Mass Transit:
• Exodus-Class Heavy Courier
• Offworld Shipping Center

Forsaken Lands:
• Swamp Caves
• Desert Sanctum

Mass Transit II:
• Cargo Docks
• Offworld Transport Facility

Forsaken Lands II:
• Badlands
• Deep Caverns

For what it's worth, if my current Kickstarter funding drive (at https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mapmaker/deep-vistas-poster-map-set ) is successful, the following three products will be added to my lineup:

Deep Vistas:
• Stalactite Gate
• Chapel of Scarabs

Deep Vistas II:
• Slave Pits
• Dark Elf Courtyard [I may take out the word "elf" before this goes to print, come to think of it.]

Deep Vistas III:
• The Silent Garden
• Chasm Bridge

If you guys need help naming any of WotC's maps, I can tell you what I called them and provide the names given on the project files.



Those are the names I used.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:40 am 
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Mapmaker wrote:
For what it's worth, I've always titled my maps. I even started putting clearer titles on WotC's maps once they gave me enough creative freedom to do so (I had no say in the process with their earlier stuff).

With my posters, the titles can be found on or near the upper-left-hand corner of the poster (when positioned so that the text labels are right-side-up to the reader). They are generally in a larger text than the rest of the map labels.

Each of my double-sided posters also has a separate title that is not printed on the maps, but is used for product identity. My product and individual map titles are as follows:

Mass Transit:
• Exodus-Class Heavy Courier
• Offworld Shipping Center

Forsaken Lands:
• Swamp Caves
• Desert Sanctum

Mass Transit II:
• Cargo Docks
• Offworld Transport Facility

Forsaken Lands II:
• Badlands
• Deep Caverns

For what it's worth, if my current Kickstarter funding drive (at https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mapmaker/deep-vistas-poster-map-set ) is successful, the following three products will be added to my lineup:

Deep Vistas:
• Stalactite Gate
• Chapel of Scarabs

Deep Vistas II:
• Slave Pits
• Dark Elf Courtyard [I may take out the word "elf" before this goes to print, come to think of it.]

Deep Vistas III:
• The Silent Garden
• Chasm Bridge

If you guys need help naming any of WotC's maps, I can tell you what I called them and provide the names given on the project files.


For what it's worth the naming confusion involved with one of your maps was someone calling it the wrong name in a post.
I hope others adopt your labeling system


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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:10 pm 
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Our upcoming maps are labeld in the lower right corner. I think alot of our maps are labeled in the lower right corner, but I'll have to make sure. It's just wasn't something we we're thinking about 3 years ago when we started publsihing 3rd party maps. Honestly the opposite was what we we're trying to achieve, meaning we were trying to keep things as generic as possible.

We have about 8 to 10 maps in the works for this years, and they will all be clearly labled in the lower right corner. We aren't doing map packs anymore so everything will be easily catalologued at adventurers-atlas.com.

honestly, I've noticed over the years people have taken liberties with naming my maps anyway. I.E I call it Theed, another guy calls it Theed plaza, another guy call it Royal Plaza, and then another guy call it Royal City.

I know Josh has always labeled his maps.

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