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 Post subject: Important Indiscriminate SA questions
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:25 pm 
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Had a little argument with a friend about the Indiscriminate ability introduced in DOTF so i just wanna have the answers laid out so we won't have an issue again.

Indiscriminate: This character ignores abilities and commander effects that prevent enemy characters from being targeted or attacked.

Shedao Shai is melee so for him it doesn't matter for some abilities anyway, but for any future characters, will it ignore the following abilities for sure?

- Stealth
- Cloaked
- Diplomat

also in reference to melee attack, can a character with Indiscriminate ignore their own limiting abilities? can shedao shai ignore his melee attack to target a character at range? It's outlandish and seems silly... but at the moment there is no text I've seen that says he can't. My friend and I brought it up for arguments sake with each other, figured we'd ask anyway.

what about AOO against characters with flight?

what about against something like pheromones that requires a save to cancel being a target of an attack? will it ignore it outright?

and will indiscriminate ignore force powers as well?

If a force user has Indiscriminate would they be able to attack Vong characters with Force Immunity?

Could someone with Indiscriminate target a Light Spirit character? and then use an ability like grenades or force lightning on it, that would affect adjacent characters to the Light Spirit character?


Thats all that we came up with, I know its a lot, but it got us thinking and we were curious.

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Last edited by Dimetrodon on Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Indiscriminate SA questions
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:36 pm 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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Indiscriminate will likely always remain a melee power. But generally, you would be able to get around abilities that normally prevent targeting and attacks, that could otherwise be attacked.

So diplomat, doesn't work, cloaked would fail, so would stealth, etc. Light Spirit I guess technically you could attack it, but since it doesn't have hps and doesn't die, I don't know what the point would be :)

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 Post subject: Re: Indiscriminate SA questions
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:39 pm 
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well target a Light Spirit character with an area of effect attack like grenades or missiles, to affect surrounding pieces.

but what about the other instances related to Force powers or FI?

and the AOO on flight?

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 Post subject: Re: Important Indiscriminate SA questions
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:23 pm 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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Indiscriminate only works on "attacks" - so all questions about force powers and special abilities are moot.

Attacking a lightspirit, with a character with Ind and Splash, would also not work, as the LS is not considered adjacent to anything (therefore nothing to splash).

AoO on Flight doesn't work, because flight doesn't actually prevent the attack directly. It allows a character to completely ignore another character while moving, and prevents an AoO indirectly.

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 Post subject: Re: Important Indiscriminate SA questions
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:48 pm 
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Ah I haven't used a Force Spirit figure in a bit, I should have read better before asking about them for this.

I think the situation with flight is debatable, as it prevents them from being a target on movement. Flight says they ignore enemies on movement, but regardless one way or another its an ability that prevents them from being a target. Therefore I would assume Indiscriminate would work. semantics I suppose but it makes sense to me that the ability would work against flight.

Indiscriminate also says Targeted or attacked. so wouldn't that work for abilities that replace attacks as they need a target first?

If Force Immunity prevents a character from being a Legal Target of Force Powers, wouldn't indiscriminate work against it?
Under this assumption a Force User with Indiscriminate should now be able to target a Force Immune enemy with force powers. Making the FI character open to force powers that replace attacks and do damage like Lightning or Force Push?

and if not why?

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 Post subject: Re: Important Indiscriminate SA questions
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:14 pm 
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Dimetrodon wrote:
Ah I haven't used a Force Spirit figure in a bit, I should have read better before asking about them for this.

I think the situation with flight is debatable, as it prevents them from being a target on movement. Flight says they ignore enemies on movement, but regardless one way or another its an ability that prevents them from being a target. Therefore I would assume Indiscriminate would work. semantics I suppose but it makes sense to me that the ability would work against flight.


Not semantics at all, there were plent of times during WOTC that Rob clarified his intent for certain rulings. That is all that has been done here.

Dimetrodon wrote:
Indiscriminate also says Targeted or attacked. so wouldn't that work for abilities that replace attacks as they need a target first?


Again, it goes to intent. As I am pretty sure that was not the intent. The glossary is missing "for purposes of attacks" The wording is a bit heavy due to things like Diplomat and such that is was meant to get around.


Dimetrodon wrote:
If Force Immunity prevents a character from being a Legal Target of Force Powers, wouldn't indiscriminate work against it?
Under this assumption a Force User with Indiscriminate should now be able to target a Force Immune enemy with force powers. Making the FI character open to force powers that replace attacks and do damage like Lightning or Force Push?

and if not why?



Force Immunity has nothing to do with Targeting...you are more than welcome to target a FI character with a Force Power...it simply has no affect.

Ganner can't Force Push someone behind a Force Immune character because it's not ignoring targeting.

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 Post subject: Re: Important Indiscriminate SA questions
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:33 pm 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:

Force Immunity has nothing to do with Targeting...you are more than welcome to target a FI character with a Force Power...it simply has no affect.


ah, well then, don't I feel a little silly. I'd blame that one on my friend, but I'll take credit for not giving that proper thought. I will say I was excited at the thought of it working as such though. oh well..

But in any case looks like our questions are answered. Only some of this is directly relevant currently, the rest was just our debate about the special ability going forward.

I think some of this stuff should definitely get thrown into the FAQ and/or glossary for sure btw.

thanks again for getting the do's and don'ts straight for us.

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 Post subject: Re: Important Indiscriminate SA questions
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:34 pm 
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Yes, the "targetting" part is required to get around Diplomat, which was the main goals of the ability.

And Flight doesn't prevent them from being a target, as AoOs do not target. I need to do a little bit of reading to make sure, but let's go with what the designers intended for now.

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 Post subject: Re: Important Indiscriminate SA questions
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:38 pm 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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Ah I see the confusion. The wording isn't clear, and I don't have the FAQ in front of me at the moment to see if this one made the list, but I suspect it didn't (I will recommend to Jason to add something about it though).

The intent of the wording "target or attack" is not to say either, it's to say both. Its specific language to get around diplomat. It is not meant to imply that Indiscriminate can be used on anything other than attacks. It didn't come up in playtesting that I know of, because the only way it would matter would be if Shadao wanted to use Yomin's Spit Poison on a diplomat, and you rarely would ever want to waste Shadao on a diplomat :)

If you read the actual wording of diplomat, I think the confusion will end.

As for the flight issue, this is a case where the semantics totally do matter. There was another issue about flight a couple of years ago that was almost exactly the same thing (although I don't remember what ability it was). The point was made that flight never gets to the AoO part of a turn at all, it's preempted well before that in the order of events because of the way its worded.

Think of it this way.
AoO's trigger when an adjacent character moves.
A Flight character moves without even considering anything to be adjacent.

Point being, indiscriminate in this hypothetical will never get around flight, and there is a precedent, I just can't remember it at the moment (I'm hoping Jason remembers, as I was arguing with him about it way back when lol).

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 Post subject: Re: Important Indiscriminate SA questions
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:44 pm 
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Sithborg wrote:
Yes, the "targetting" part is required to get around Diplomat, which was the main goals of the ability.

And Flight doesn't prevent them from being a target, as AoOs do not target. I need to do a little bit of reading to make sure, but let's go with what the designers intended for now.



yeah for sure, this one seems to have pretty specific uses, where some of the examples we brought up are either outlandish or weren't properly thought out before asking. such as the Light Spirit one.. if we read the glossary vs. card text first we'd have been reminded that it didn't need asking at all.

Although Bill did say it could be made a target.. but for what reason in the first place? lol

so far that seems to be the only unintended effect, but nothing that really matters in the long run yet.


billiv15 wrote:
Ah I see the confusion. The wording isn't clear, and I don't have the FAQ in front of me at the moment to see if this one made the list, but I suspect it didn't (I will recommend to Jason to add something about it though).

The intent of the wording "target or attack" is not to say either, it's to say both. Its specific language to get around diplomat. It is not meant to imply that Indiscriminate can be used on anything other than attacks. It didn't come up in playtesting that I know of, because the only way it would matter would be if Shadao wanted to use Yomin's Spit Poison on a diplomat, and you rarely would ever want to waste Shadao on a diplomat :)

If you read the actual wording of diplomat, I think the confusion will end.

As for the flight issue, this is a case where the semantics totally do matter. There was another issue about flight a couple of years ago that was almost exactly the same thing (although I don't remember what ability it was). The point was made that flight never gets to the AoO part of a turn at all, it's preempted well before that in the order of events because of the way its worded.

Think of it this way.
AoO's trigger when an adjacent character moves.
A Flight character moves without even considering anything to be adjacent.

Point being, indiscriminate in this hypothetical will never get around flight, and there is a precedent, I just can't remember it at the moment (I'm hoping Jason remembers, as I was arguing with him about it way back when lol).


Some of the confusion in reference to flight also had to do with the Seers reflexes ability, but that one also specifically said it was meant for abilities that cause a character to be ignored, such as flight and wall climber. Going back now and looking at the Seer I see where it's very different than how indiscriminate works, and also where it altered my thinking for this one "just a tad"

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 Post subject: Re: Important Indiscriminate SA questions
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:54 pm 
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Sounds like an Overwhelming Force arguement.

Yup: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/ ... lomat?pg=1

NVM: I need to stop thinking about certain things after a certain time, apparently.

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 Post subject: Re: Important Indiscriminate SA questions
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:57 pm 
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I just remembered the precedent for the flight AoO question - it was in regards to Overwhelming Force.
I don't have the link, but I know that I argued for it working on flight, and Jason showed why it didn't :)

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 Post subject: Re: Important Indiscriminate SA questions
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:10 am 
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reading through quick this is what I saw from nickname about it

Quote:
I see a distinction between never being granted an AOO in the first place (flight), and being granted an AOO but not be allowed to make the attack (diplomat).

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 Post subject: Re: Important Indiscriminate SA questions
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:09 am 
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Okay, I'm going to be honest. This is a slight screw-up. It doesn't rise to the level of the Scout Trooper Officer gaffe, but it is going to have to get some attention.

When the ability was first written, Shedao Shai was non-melee. The intent of it was to be improved Accurate Shot, and something that can get around Diplomat. It could also be a Flight counter for AoOs. It seemed clever and fun.

But later Melee Attack was added and the ability definition was not updated. A character with Indiscriminate obviously cannot ignore its own restrictions. In hindsight, Indiscriminate should have been removed when Melee Attack was added, but none of us caught that. Live and learn.

So the design team will have to discuss this some, and figure out the best solution for the future.

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 Post subject: Re: Important Indiscriminate SA questions
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:15 am 
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billiv15 wrote:
LS is not considered adjacent to anything (therefore nothing to splash).


As long as the figure(s) with Indiscriminate also have Melee Attack, I would think this little tidbit would still make it impossible to attack the LS. Since not counting as adjacent doesn't actually prevent targetting or attacks (just makes it so Melee cannot fulfill it's restriction - same reasoning as flight in you're later post) Indiscriminate wouldn't override it.


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 Post subject: Re: Important Indiscriminate SA questions
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:48 am 
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I remember bringing up the Spit Poison interaction with Stealth/Cloaked back during the design phase. The way it's worded and the way the FAQ and Glossary are worded, would still allow you to use things like Spit Poison on Cloaked or Diplomat characters.

I didn't realize that Shedao was non-Melee at one point...interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: Important Indiscriminate SA questions
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:38 pm 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Okay, I'm going to be honest. This is a slight screw-up. It doesn't rise to the level of the Scout Trooper Officer gaffe, but it is going to have to get some attention.

When the ability was first written, Shedao Shai was non-melee. The intent of it was to be improved Accurate Shot, and something that can get around Diplomat. It could also be a Flight counter for AoOs. It seemed clever and fun.

But later Melee Attack was added and the ability definition was not updated. A character with Indiscriminate obviously cannot ignore its own restrictions. In hindsight, Indiscriminate should have been removed when Melee Attack was added, but none of us caught that. Live and learn.

So the design team will have to discuss this some, and figure out the best solution for the future.


Just needs a beefy glossary text to confirm do's and don'ts really. But that's pretty interesting to know about Shedao actually, makes a little more sense now.

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