logo

All times are UTC - 6 hours

Mark forums read


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 61 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Jacen + Vong Sense
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 1:32 pm 
Jedi Battlemaster
Jedi Battlemaster
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:46 pm
Posts: 3199
Location: Waterloo, ON
Situation:

Jacen and an Ossus Vong on a NR squad vs Thrawn and Palps SL on another.

The ossus vong betrays to the Imperial squad. It is in the Ysalmiri bubble, Jacen is not. Can Jacen use lightning on the Vong?

I'm fairly confident that the answer is yes, but there is a possibility I'm wrong. Reasoning: Vongsense states that he can ignore YV immunity, affinity changes the faction, thus the Ossu is NR not YV, thus Jacen can not ignore. Further thought, Jacen can ignore YV immunity, but not the Force Immunity granted by the Ysalmiri bubble.

_________________
Winner of the Knights of the SWMGamers Stats Contest
<Joruus (GFC)> - Sheesh, I swear you're like Fool 2.0 (and you can quote me on it xD)
Archives of the Gamers Jedi
Join the FOLLY! Online casual League, find out more here: FOLLY


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Jacen + Vong Sense
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:12 pm 
Big Bad Brad
Big Bad Brad
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:14 am
Posts: 5344
Well currently, since there is no Special Ability such as Wookie that specifically defines Yuzaahn Vong, then it is referring to the Yuzaahn Vong Faction. I imagine the intent would be for it to work on Vong characters within the New Republic as well, but until that is clearly defined in the glossary...

An interesting scenario, but if Yuzaahn Vong was defined then Jacen would be able to use Lightning on that Ossus Guardiana as Ysalamiri merely grants Force Immunity which Jacen could thus ignore on Vong characters.

I imagine it could be argued that the Far Outsider, already having Yuzaahn Vong Warrior, would be affected by Jacen's Vongsense regardless of what faction he currently is in.

_________________
"200 or 2"
"Consistency is the key, not crying"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Jacen + Vong Sense
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:53 pm 
Mandalore
Mandalore
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 6:06 pm
Posts: 1209
Location: Aboard the Exocarrier Resalute, waiting to free all SWMer's from Tyrnany
hum....I would think that in the logical sense it would work, but in the terms of game mechanics I would think not.

_________________
"Rolling a Natural 20, there is no other feeling like it."

Member of the SWMRAC
Member of the Completed till the End and Beyond Club

Come rate my squads on Bloomilk...http://www.bloomilk.com/Squads/Search.a ... dalsiandon


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Jacen + Vong Sense
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 8:05 pm 
Death Star Designers
Death Star Designers
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:45 pm
Posts: 3886
Both Vong Hunter and Vongsense apply to characters of the Yuuzhan Vong faction.

_________________
Bloomilk Ambassador


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Jacen + Vong Sense
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 8:51 pm 
Major Tierce
Major Tierce

Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:21 pm
Posts: 3232
Does it still work in a Ysamilirir bubble? JAcen outside the bubble and the Vong in the bubble

_________________
When I left you I was but the learner . . . now I am the master.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Jacen + Vong Sense
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 8:54 pm 
Really Cool Alien from a Cantina
Really Cool Alien from a Cantina
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 160
Location: Northern VA
Also remember that even though an Ossus Guardian is in a New Republic squad, he is still in the YV faction. His affinity for NR does not change his faction.

Roy

_________________
Do you play X-wing Miniatures, Star Wars: The Card Game, or Attack Wing? Check out "A Few Maneuvers"!!
http://www.afewmaneuvers.com
Image
AFM: drkjedi35
Bloomilk: swrogue57


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Jacen + Vong Sense
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:09 pm 
Major Tierce
Major Tierce

Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:21 pm
Posts: 3232
Actually if he is in a NR squad he is NR. Affinity will change your faction if you are in that squad.

_________________
When I left you I was but the learner . . . now I am the master.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Jacen + Vong Sense
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:19 pm 
Big Bad Brad
Big Bad Brad
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:14 am
Posts: 5344
urbanjedi wrote:
Does it still work in a Ysamilirir bubble? JAcen outside the bubble and the Vong in the bubble



IF the character inside the bubble were still of the Yuzaahn Vong faction, then yes. Ysalamiri simply grants Force Immunity and prevents characters within it from spending Force Points.

Vongsense ignores Force Immunity, regardless of the source, of any Yuzaahn Vong character.

_________________
"200 or 2"
"Consistency is the key, not crying"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Jacen + Vong Sense
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:23 pm 
Major Tierce
Major Tierce

Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:21 pm
Posts: 3232
That's what I thought although I have no idea how you would get a Vong faction character in the force bubble with Jacen on the other squad.

_________________
When I left you I was but the learner . . . now I am the master.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Jacen + Vong Sense
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:30 am 
Jedi Battlemaster
Jedi Battlemaster
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:46 pm
Posts: 3199
Location: Waterloo, ON
So, to sum up;

Jacen's Vongsense works against Force Immunity only on those of the YV faction.

Thus, in a NR vs NR, one side having Jacen, and one side having a YV Ossus Guardian, Jacen could NOT use his Vongsense to Force Lightning the YVOG, because the YV is now a New Republic character.

Correct?

_________________
Winner of the Knights of the SWMGamers Stats Contest
<Joruus (GFC)> - Sheesh, I swear you're like Fool 2.0 (and you can quote me on it xD)
Archives of the Gamers Jedi
Join the FOLLY! Online casual League, find out more here: FOLLY


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Jacen + Vong Sense
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:14 am 
Master of the Order
Master of the Order
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 2:46 pm
Posts: 7960
Location: West Chester, OH (near Cincinnati)
Correct.

And also for that same reason, the example given in the first post, Jacen would not be able to use Lightning on the Vong Guardian either, because it initially started as NR faction.

That's actually a rather interesting interaction, and I'd bet it's one that the designers didn't think about, lol. Oh well. Should happen on a pretty limited scale.

_________________
-Aaron
Mand'alor
"You either die a hero, or you live to see yourself become the villain."
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Jacen + Vong Sense
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:18 am 
Name Calling Internet Bully
Name Calling Internet Bully
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:10 pm
Posts: 6172
Location: Gurnee, IL
LoboStele wrote:
Correct.

And also for that same reason, the example given in the first post, Jacen would not be able to use Lightning on the Vong Guardian either, because it initially started as NR faction.

That's actually a rather interesting interaction, and I'd bet it's one that the designers didn't think about, lol. Oh well. Should happen on a pretty limited scale.


I'd say it's one that there is nothing you could do about it neatly. WotC created the odd interactions that involve faction changes via affinity. It wasn't worth it for us to try to change it for one specific interaction, when the game is full of similar kinds of oddities already.

_________________
Image

http://www.bloomilk.com/Squads/Search.aspx?UserID=29


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Jacen + Vong Sense
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:48 am 
Big Bad Brad
Big Bad Brad
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:14 am
Posts: 5344
billiv15 wrote:
LoboStele wrote:
Correct.

And also for that same reason, the example given in the first post, Jacen would not be able to use Lightning on the Vong Guardian either, because it initially started as NR faction.

That's actually a rather interesting interaction, and I'd bet it's one that the designers didn't think about, lol. Oh well. Should happen on a pretty limited scale.


I'd say it's one that there is nothing you could do about it neatly. WotC created the odd interactions that involve faction changes via affinity. It wasn't worth it for us to try to change it for one specific interaction, when the game is full of similar kinds of oddities already.


If the intent was for it to work, then simply add Yuzaahn Vong to the glossary. I don't think that's anything to monumental.

Also, what about the above interaction using a Far Outsider? Seeing as he has a Special Ability that might define him outisde his faction as Yuzaahn Vong, I could see the argument that Jacen could use Lightning on him.

Edit: Lol, Nevermind as that interaction could never exist.

_________________
"200 or 2"
"Consistency is the key, not crying"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Jacen + Vong Sense
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:06 am 
Master of the Order
Master of the Order
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 2:46 pm
Posts: 7960
Location: West Chester, OH (near Cincinnati)
The SA 'Yuuzhan Vong Warrior' would not be the same thing as an SA 'Yuuzhan Vong' even if it did exist. Just like the SA 'Lightsaber Duelist' is not the same as 'Lightsaber'. Besides, precedent set by these types of abilities is that it references the Faction, and not an SA, unless it specifically says so.

And just adding 'Yuuzhan Vong' to the Glossary really wouldn't help, since most of the pieces don't have a 'Yuuzhan Vong' SA. Would have to be errata'd onto all the older YV cards, like they did with Chewbacca, and honestly, that's probably not really worth it for such a limited interaction.

_________________
-Aaron
Mand'alor
"You either die a hero, or you live to see yourself become the villain."
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Jacen + Vong Sense
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:08 am 
Master of the Order
Master of the Order
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:08 pm
Posts: 8394
Vongsense was meant to be a flavorful counter to Yuuzhan Vong, not something to strictly circumvent all instances of Force Immunity. I don't know that it would have been possible to anticipate this interaction until it occurred, and it didn't happen in playtesting.

_________________
Click here to check out all the people who have realized the truth. Someday you will, too.

"I would really, really like to not have anything else happen at the end of the round other than things just ending." -- Sithborg


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Jacen + Vong Sense
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:09 am 
Name Calling Internet Bully
Name Calling Internet Bully
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:10 pm
Posts: 6172
Location: Gurnee, IL
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
If the intent was for it to work, then simply add Yuzaahn Vong to the glossary. I don't think that's anything to monumental.

I don't know if that was the intent or not. I'm pretty sure the intent was for Jacen to be able to use lightning against Vong armies. A NR Vong figure isn't really a Vong army and isn't what Jacen would have ever fought as an NR character. He might have fought them as a Sith Lord (don't think he did, but not certain). But either way, it's just one of those odd interactions that the game contains.

Another easy example, Princess Leia in a NR squad via original Jacen. Even if his sister brings a Rebel Han, there are no Rebels in the squad for her to use her CE on. It's exactly the same situation here. Why should we fix it in one case, while ignoring that it's consistent with many other things in the game? Yuzaahn Vong is a faction, I am not interested in making a change that defines it as something else, I don't think the game needs that kind of adjustment, when it would create all kinds of other inconsistencies to do so.

In addition to the "Rebel" issue, we would have to also adjust the name of "Sith" for the purposes of Sith hunter, "Mando" for the purposes of Mando Hunter, "Old Republic Hunter" and on and on and on. Its not nearly as simple as making on small insignificant change Brad.

Further, we'd also have to issue errata to the entire existing Vong characters, to define them as "YV". While a glossary definition could do this, it's a major change to a fundamental rule, and we've generally agreed not to do that to WotC rules.

And most certainly I'm not willing to consider it for one small interaction. We didn't playtest this one, but I was aware of the possibility. I just thought of the issue in the above way and ignored it. Edit - NVM, what Dennis just said :)

_________________
Image

http://www.bloomilk.com/Squads/Search.aspx?UserID=29


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Jacen + Vong Sense
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:27 am 
Big Bad Brad
Big Bad Brad
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:14 am
Posts: 5344
billiv15 wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
If the intent was for it to work, then simply add Yuzaahn Vong to the glossary. I don't think that's anything to monumental.

I don't know if that was the intent or not. I'm pretty sure the intent was for Jacen to be able to use lightning against Vong armies. A NR Vong figure isn't really a Vong army and isn't what Jacen would have ever fought as an NR character. He might have fought them as a Sith Lord (don't think he did, but not certain). But either way, it's just one of those odd interactions that the game contains.

Another easy example, Princess Leia in a NR squad via original Jacen. Even if his sister brings a Rebel Han, there are no Rebels in the squad for her to use her CE on. It's exactly the same situation here. Why should we fix it in one case, while ignoring that it's consistent with many other things in the game? Yuzaahn Vong is a faction, I am not interested in making a change that defines it as something else, I don't think the game needs that kind of adjustment, when it would create all kinds of other inconsistencies to do so.

In addition to the "Rebel" issue, we would have to also adjust the name of "Sith" for the purposes of Sith hunter, "Mando" for the purposes of Mando Hunter, "Old Republic Hunter" and on and on and on. Its not nearly as simple as making on small insignificant change Brad.

Further, we'd also have to issue errata to the entire existing Vong characters, to define them as "YV". While a glossary definition could do this, it's a major change to a fundamental rule, and we've generally agreed not to do that to WotC rules.

And most certainly I'm not willing to consider it for one small interaction. We didn't playtest this one, but I was aware of the possibility. I just thought of the issue in the above way and ignored it. Edit - NVM, what Dennis just said :)


The big difference with your examples is Yuzaahn Vong is a race, and is illustrated that way in the game[via the figures themselves]. (Sith is a race elsewhere but not really in Minis), so there is some precedence for doing so for it and not for your other examples which are simply factions. You're also right that the interaction is far too insignificant, but I wasn't really arguing for the change so much as merely suggesting a fix if that was the intent. However, I agree with Dennis, if it wasn't the intent, then it simply wasn't the intent and I'm fine either way.

I really don't see how you consider adding Yuzaahn Vong to the glossary a major change to a fundamental rule and while you could probably persuade me, as the difference is merely philosophical, it's also moot for the above statement by Dennis.

_________________
"200 or 2"
"Consistency is the key, not crying"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Jacen + Vong Sense
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:33 am 
Master of the Order
Master of the Order
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 2:46 pm
Posts: 7960
Location: West Chester, OH (near Cincinnati)
To be fair, Yuuzhan Vong really isn't a race. There's a lot of data to suggest that the primary YV characters are all of the same humanoid base species, but then you also have things like the Voxyn, Chazrach, Yammosk, etc. that are all clearly other races, yet part of the Yuuzhan Vong faction.

_________________
-Aaron
Mand'alor
"You either die a hero, or you live to see yourself become the villain."
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Jacen + Vong Sense
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:36 am 
Big Bad Brad
Big Bad Brad
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:14 am
Posts: 5344
LoboStele wrote:
The SA 'Yuuzhan Vong Warrior' would not be the same thing as an SA 'Yuuzhan Vong' even if it did exist. Just like the SA 'Lightsaber Duelist' is not the same as 'Lightsaber'. Besides, precedent set by these types of abilities is that it references the Faction, and not an SA, unless it specifically says so.

And just adding 'Yuuzhan Vong' to the Glossary really wouldn't help, since most of the pieces don't have a 'Yuuzhan Vong' SA. Would have to be errata'd onto all the older YV cards, like they did with Chewbacca, and honestly, that's probably not really worth it for such a limited interaction.



Actually in this case it's more about the interactions similar to DR and SA's of FP's containing the word Lightsaber. Of course, in my initial statement I forgot about the Yuzaahn Vong Collaborator, so you'd essentially be trading an small oddity for a small oddity.

Also you wouldn't have to errata all vong, just the ones that didn't specifically say Yuzaahn Vong which, initially I thought was just the Uniques, but there are a few non-uniques as well.

Again really not worth the argument if it wasn't the design intent anyway. Just stating a possible fix.

_________________
"200 or 2"
"Consistency is the key, not crying"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Jacen + Vong Sense
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:43 am 
Big Bad Brad
Big Bad Brad
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:14 am
Posts: 5344
LoboStele wrote:
To be fair, Yuuzhan Vong really isn't a race. There's a lot of data to suggest that the primary YV characters are all of the same humanoid base species, but then you also have things like the Voxyn, Chazrach, Yammosk, etc. that are all clearly other races, yet part of the Yuuzhan Vong faction.



Okay....?? Now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing :P but for fun, that's like saying a dog counts as being human because he resides and falls under the same household. ;) In game terms, which I just realized is probably what you meant, Yuzaahn Vong is a race that falls under the Yuzaahn Vong faction along with the Voxyn, Yammosk etc, just like Wookies are a race that fall under various factions.

Still from a game perspective, (though I can't remember which have Force Immunity) that does drastically alter it being worth any fix, which the fact that it wasn't the intent already did. Half the faction would end up being Yuzaahn Vong all the time and the other half would only count if they were in a Yuzaahn Vong squad, and that interaction is just stupid.

_________________
"200 or 2"
"Consistency is the key, not crying"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 61 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours

Mark forums read

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Jedi Knights style by Scott Stubblefield