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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:02 am 
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I wasnt aware the map list did updates every 6 months, thought it was just once a year. in light of that, I concede the point I made however many posts back.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:05 am 
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Disturbed1 wrote:
I wasnt aware the map list did updates every 6 months, thought it was just once a year. in light of that, I concede the point I made however many posts back.


Generally, it's gone through major changes in January, then minor tweaks for Gencon in July - although that hasn't been universally true either. But I think it's the model we intend to follow. The "rotation" idea isn't in the plans for the time being. We are not planning to remove any of the current legal maps from the restricted list, but to supliment with custom work. Regionals should help us find any maps that get through testing and still are problematic for Gencon - so odds are, July is either a subtraction from the list if need be, or a confirmation of the current list for Gencon - although an addition could be merited as well.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:01 pm 
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billiv15 wrote:
We are not planning to remove any of the current legal maps from the restricted list, but to supliment with custom work.



That's disappointing to know. I fully expected newer maps to replace some (Hall of Judgement) but not all of the maps on the Restricted list. Otherwise, the map list is just going to continue to grow. After this batch is added, I would fully expect it to be at 10 +, if not closer to 15+, just from what I've looked at now if we don't remove some. Honestly, after only a week of seriously looking at these maps, I have become a big fan of some kind of rotating map list.

Lol, also I just wasted a lot of my time this week too ;) as I had been playing map vs map using the current Restricted list against some of the potential candidates. Hence, why Hall of Judgement quickly fell off my list of recommendations to keep with others being close behind.

Maybe I'm just taking the word "Restricted" too literally.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:28 pm 
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Removing (or rotating out) WotC maps is not a good idea because some will choose not to venture into the realm of 3rd party maps.

If there are 15+ maps that meet the strict requirements for the Restricted list then, great, it's not a disadvantage to have a lot of variety.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:40 pm 
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NickName wrote:
Removing (or rotating out) WotC maps is not a good idea because some will choose not to venture into the realm of 3rd party maps.



Ok, I need more elaboration on this because I must be completely misreading this. How are the two related?

I'm still going to disagree with you on the greater variety of maps for the Restricted list, but that is nothing more than a difference of opinion.

Edit: Oh, do you mean the fact that some won't buy 3rd party maps at all? If so, I still don't see that as an issue as any list would have some WOTC maps on it.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:21 pm 
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Correct--it's about obtaining them. The number of WotC maps on the Restricted list is quite small already. I don't see a reason to remove them just because something else is being added. You may recall people wanted more maps on the Restricted list just for more variety but we resisted. Ultimately, the Restricted list isn't about the number of maps, it's about meeting the set of criteria that make for a quality map in a highly competitive environment. You just apply the criteria as objectively as you can, and if a map passes it's in, and if it doesn't, it's not. It was never about limiting the number, or "mixing it up."

The only reason I can see for removing a WotC map is if the metagame shifts to an extent that some of them are violating criteria #4.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:24 pm 
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NickName wrote:
Correct--it's about obtaining them. The number of WotC maps on the Restricted list is quite small already. I don't see a reason to remove them just because something else is being added. You may recall people wanted more maps on the Restricted list just for more variety but we resisted. Ultimately, the Restricted list isn't about the number of maps, it's about meeting the set of criteria that make for a quality map in a highly competitive environment. You just apply the criteria as objectively as you can, and if a map passes it's in, and if it doesn't, it's not. It was never about limiting the number, or "mixing it up."

The only reason I can see for removing a WotC map is if the metagame shifts to an extent that some of them are violating criteria #4.



After some discussion via text, I am beginning to be swayed by your side of the argument, though I'm not completely there yet. :D Still under your criteria, which I copied and pasted into an email out to the playtesters btw :D, I feel like Hall of Judgement should be dropped off. I think that comes from a comparitive viewpoint. Certain maps are dropping further down the list because another fits a criteria better, and almost all the custom maps do so better than Hall of Judgement.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:30 pm 
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Cool. Bill has mentioned a couple times he thinks Nightclub should have made the cut, and I was on the fence about Mos Eisley. I think each is arguable. This is the first objection I've heard to Hall of Judgement so I'd be interested in hearing your reasoning.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:38 pm 
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NickName wrote:
Cool. Bill has mentioned a couple times he thinks Nightclub should have made the cut, and I was on the fence about Mos Eisley. I think each is arguable. This is the first objection I've heard to Hall of Judgement so I'd be interested in hearing your reasoning.



Yeah, we're looking at Nightclub, but this is the first anyone has mentioned taking another look at Mos Eisley.

Hall of Judgement is pretty simple. I feel like it is completely abused by Deepstrike squads such as Yodabuck or (especially) Lancer. Heck I even built a Tier two Furious Assault squad that was pasting better Tier one Squads on this map. I know for a fact I was able to do this in round 1 (most of the time) and I want to say it was within 4 or 5 activations.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 6:03 pm 
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Gotcha.

Deep strike has several good choices. All of them with basically one door to open. (Pit, Grand Plaza). I'm not sure Hall of Judgement is signifcantly better in that regard. With Kybuck you might even prefer a more melee friendly map, or with double-override Lancers you may actually want one of the multi-door maps to capitalize on building an override advantage with your first strafe.

The Furious Assault example is entertaining, but I'm not sure how applicable it is. If it's Teir 2, then it's just a spoiler as it can't generally compete through a tourney. Spoilers will always work if you're unlucky enough to hit one. And then, more specifically, did your opponent make the mistake of taking the generally preferred Hangar side when he should have taken the Hall side in this matchup?

So sticking with the former issue, I'm not sure removing Hall gains you much in curtailing Deep Strike squads. It isn't even the preferred map for Lancer as far as I've seen. It got some use by Kybuck, but so did several other maps.

I agree it's a good map for deep-strike. I played it myself in the regionals with a Kybuck squad. But I haven't really seen it proven to go beyond good to abusive, nor have I seen it become a definitive "go to" map for deep-strike like Teth Monastery was with Cannons, nor do I see it's removal having much impact on Deep Strike due to the other good map options.

Thanks for explaining. With the above I'm not trying to dismiss the concern--just offering the counter argument.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:48 pm 
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No, I totally agree with you, most of the maps on the current restricted list are indeed Deepstrike friendly. The only reason Hall of Judgement made the list is because I can take this spoiler squad with the same basic premise of a deepstrike squad and win nearly every game if I win map...regardless of side choice. Given that the same squad doesn't have quite the same efficiency on the other favored Deepstrike maps put it at the top of my list over the others. I just didn't feel like I would make any headway with the argument of axing 3 of the current maps, nor would I want to turn this into a deepstrike witchhunt or try to turn the current Meta completely on its head.

Alas, once again you have beaten me this night ;)! It really would need to be an all or nothing argument. Splitting the difference really is insignificant. That's why I was disappointed to learn that there would be no removals, since most of the maps I have looked at so far really aren't optimal choices for deepstrike squads, those squads will just stick with the old standby.

I can't remember how prevalent Deepstrike squads were at Gencon, but I'd venture to say it was on the close to half from walking the tables. Not much in the way of lancer, but quite a few Yodabucks, seems like Republic was the most played (or second) of any faction and all but one included Yodabuck. Now granted, that's going to change, but it's not my job to analyze some future Meta, just checking the maps against current meta.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:13 pm 
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It is cool that nightclub is getting another look see as it has always been a favorite.

Have to get out my copy of Mos Eisley and take a look at that again.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:19 pm 
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Hall of Judgement is fine on the restricted list.

As a deep stirke player (twin lancers) I ran this map at a regional and was disappointed with it's performance. It is good (not great) for a lancer squad if the lancer gets the gray (hanger) side. From the yellow side it has some disadvantages that as a lancer player were enough that I switched maps again and do not consider it a map that I can bring. Now if someone else brings it then the Lancer can certainly compete on it it and is good if they get side choice. All it really takes is one good override and the lancer player is done for the day from either side.

Can't really speak to Yobuck as I cannot win a game with him on any map.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 10:03 am 
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urbanjedi wrote:
Hall of Judgement is fine on the restricted list.

As a deep stirke player (twin lancers) I ran this map at a regional and was disappointed with it's performance. It is good (not great) for a lancer squad if the lancer gets the gray (hanger) side. From the yellow side it has some disadvantages that as a lancer player were enough that I switched maps again and do not consider it a map that I can bring. Now if someone else brings it then the Lancer can certainly compete on it it and is good if they get side choice. All it really takes is one good override and the lancer player is done for the day from either side.

Can't really speak to Yobuck as I cannot win a game with him on any map.


It must just be a personal preference thing with me then, though with Lancer's I do prefer Pen. Well, that's why we have discussions.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:54 pm 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
The only reason Hall of Judgement made the list is because I can take this spoiler squad with the same basic premise of a deepstrike squad and win nearly every game if I win map...regardless of side choice.


Got a link to the squad on Bloo? I'll give it a try some evening and see if I can replicate your success just as an experiment.

urbanjedi wrote:
It is cool that nightclub is getting another look see as it has always been a favorite.


Test melee against any sort of flying mobile shooter--say Thrawn/Bane or towed-Rex. It's problematic for melee to take left because shooters control gambit from their setup area and it's problematic to take right because flying mobile shooters can control gambit by puddle-jumping the lava. This is why it didn't make the original cut--gambit it too exposed to a known Tier 1 archtype making it a sort of sure thing shooter choice.

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Have to get out my copy of Mos Eisley and take a look at that again.


Nothing so specific as Night Club, but more the general idea that it's so open that if it's on the list shooters take nothing else.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 7:02 pm 
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NickName wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
The only reason Hall of Judgement made the list is because I can take this spoiler squad with the same basic premise of a deepstrike squad and win nearly every game if I win map...regardless of side choice.


Got a link to the squad on Bloo? I'll give it a try some evening and see if I can replicate your success just as an experiment.




Bloomilk, no. It used to be too slow for my taste and I've never gotten back into the habit of using it.

But here's the basics:

Thrawn (either, depending on how you want to play it)
Lobot UH
Merc Commander
General Veers
Jabba, CL
Mas
Chiss Merc x4
Filler (varied based on Thrawn, but usually some Rodians)

* Actually I think one of the Chiss came from Lobot, but you get the idea.

Without getting too technical, starting from the right (hangar) side. You can set you squad to either top or bottom door. The rodian can make it to either door (on the bottom Lobot is set up to unlock the other) . Swap, then the Chiss can run 12 and (depending on top or bottom) have access to all but 6-9 squares.

If they let me set up first (remember it's my map choice) I take left (Temple) side and it's all but 1 square (from the top door or the small door between the main and top) that you can shoot at. I can't remember as I didn't get to play that side often, it may take a bit to set up and you may not be able to do it until the first activation of the 2nd round (in which case, it's better to have UH Thrawn)

It's not perfect after that, but typically that initial 40 to every character or nearly if they run Rieekan is tough to come back from, especially when it ate up a lot of activations.

Sure it's a spoiler squad, and I only played it a couple times (so maybe 8 games) and didn't face every version of a competitive squad (Lancers would kill it). It's just that kind of exploitatation from a sub-par squad does not scream Restricted to me. Heck, you've even mentioned how incredibly shooty it is.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 10:46 pm 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
NickName wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
The only reason Hall of Judgement made the list is because I can take this spoiler squad with the same basic premise of a deepstrike squad and win nearly every game if I win map...regardless of side choice.


Got a link to the squad on Bloo? I'll give it a try some evening and see if I can replicate your success just as an experiment.




Bloomilk, no. It used to be too slow for my taste and I've never gotten back into the habit of using it.

But here's the basics:

Thrawn (either, depending on how you want to play it)
Lobot UH
Merc Commander
General Veers
Jabba, CL
Mas
Chiss Merc x4
Filler (varied based on Thrawn, but usually some Rodians)

* Actually I think one of the Chiss came from Lobot, but you get the idea.

Without getting too technical, starting from the right (hangar) side. You can set you squad to either top or bottom door. The rodian can make it to either door (on the bottom Lobot is set up to unlock the other) . Swap, then the Chiss can run 12 and (depending on top or bottom) have access to all but 6-9 squares.

If they let me set up first (remember it's my map choice) I take left (Temple) side and it's all but 1 square (from the top door or the small door between the main and top) that you can shoot at. I can't remember as I didn't get to play that side often, it may take a bit to set up and you may not be able to do it until the first activation of the 2nd round (in which case, it's better to have UH Thrawn)

It's not perfect after that, but typically that initial 40 to every character or nearly if they run Rieekan is tough to come back from, especially when it ate up a lot of activations.

Sure it's a spoiler squad, and I only played it a couple times (so maybe 8 games) and didn't face every version of a competitive squad (Lancers would kill it). It's just that kind of exploitatation from a sub-par squad does not scream Restricted to me. Heck, you've even mentioned how incredibly shooty it is.


Not a bad squad at all. I like it (adding to squads to play on vassal vs noobs). I do however not agree that id base a map analisis off that squad, even though its cool and very differant. What Hall of Judgement has going for it is a safe way for melee to advance and doors to hide behind. Also safe gambit helps (at least safe from shooting if you start outside :))

I do worry about swap caves and badlands because of lancer and yobuck, but at the same time it isnt too hard to setup so they HAVE to take a certain path through your dudes, like past a kel dor for the lancer, or past your beat with a bg on him. I say all this after not playing on those maps so im probably WAY off.

Also just bought MP4 so that should be here soon, i def see like 2-3 maps from that making it to resticted, so that exciting. I know Matt needs just a few more sales to hit his break even point so that will keep him making us maps hopefully.

All in all id love to see more then just 6 on the list, i got kind of tired at gencon of all my games being on either Ravaged Base or Jedi Temple.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 7:21 am 
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Jeremy Betsch(eruletho) Play tested the Chiss Asteroid Base and Spice Mines of Kessel yesterday. Heres a break downon each one.

Chiss Asteroid base

I played a squad I Netdecked from Deri Morgan

Han GH
Mara, Jedi
Ganner
Anakin Solo
Lobot
Dodanna
Uggies and mouse droids


Jeremy played nothing but melee scrubs.

I started on the west side of the map in the clear area above the barracks, and Jeremy started in the hangar bay area. The first thing we noticed is that line of sight aorund gambit is actually pretty tricky. It's deceptivily closed. I did score gambit in the first round,using Ganners levitation.

I'm not going to do a breakdown but heres how the game went, but this really came across as a map that gives melee a fair sweep. THe lines of sight around the gambit area really evened out the imbalance between melee and shooters. THe advances to the cente rof the map are even

Jeremy thinks it's not a good map because he thinks it favors melee too much. I really don't see that as an issue personally, and I see plenty of healthy lines of site on the pereferrals of the map.


KESSEL

Jeremy liked this map more than I did, but the only issiue I really had with the map is if you blow the doors in the command center gambit is going to be tough, and the long halls on the north and south of the commmand center can be meat grinders. With that said Our game was really cool.

I played the same squad and Jeremy played

Quigon,Jedi Trainer
Obi wan padawan
Snow bunny padme
That mon cal jedi
Dark woman
Jax pavan
R2 Astromech
the hammerhead jedi
Cdr Ashoka
mas amedda
some uggies


So he didn't really have a competive squad, and he took a pounding trying to get to me. most of the action occired in the south hallway below the command center, in the command center and the opening into the hangar.

I set up in the hangar and he set up in the cave area. I think I had a much easier time getting gambit, I used the access tunnel on the right of the command cneter.

The map really is balanced on both sides, but maybe favors the east of the map. I don't think I wouldve setup that far south west like Jeremy did.


So overall

Chiss Asteroid Base: I feel very strongly about this map after I played the game on it.
Kessel: I don't feel as strong, but feel that someone should probably spend more time on it.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:52 pm 
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Bumped for my benefit. It's good to go back through and read some comments after I have playtested a particular map.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 4:01 pm 
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After a few games on it i really dont like Theed for restricted. I think Snowspeeder, Mobile Shooters, Swap squads, and really long shooting lanes hurt it a lot for resticted.

Just my $0.02

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