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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 12:46 pm 
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Sithborg wrote:
I agree with Nickname's analysis. Spynet HQ I think is my favorite map from MP4.


Having played on this map in the Mystery Map tourney at GenCon, it's a pretty map, but it would never get my vote for the Restricted List. The lay-out of the map causes a stand-off type of game play, as you can hide 1, maybe 2 pieces in gambit, and you pretty much get slaughtered by opposing shooters if you try anything else. I was running a Sep squad that had done fairly well throughout the event, I got absolutely slaughtered by a Mando build because he just sat in the back and pummeled anything I revealed.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 1:09 pm 
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Not to derail the thread, but, a couple of our local players pointed out something about the products being released now by both Chris and AG/JC. I think they were being kinda whiney about it, but I dont really think its a big deal.

They noticed that most of the maps both contributors are putting out now are door heavy, in the sense that you cant really get to your opponent without dealing with alot of doors along the way. They were comparing this to some of the wotc official maps such as Death Star and Muunilist which have several doors, but large doorless areas that you can go to and avoid doors for the most part; as well as maps like Destryed Base or Throne Room which have several doors, but most matched see important interactions with only a handful on each map, while the rest of the doors are either unimportant at all, or are just 'leave the starting zone' doors.

Again, I dont think this is a big complaint, but I figured Id go ahead and mention it, even if I dont agree with it.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 1:18 pm 
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That's funny. I guess they haven't played on Badlands, Swamp Caves, the new Crystal Caves, Jabba's Throne Room, Peaceful City, Loading Docks....

Yes, a lot of the newer maps do have a lot of doors. But WOTC's maps which are considered the most balanced are the ones with fewer wide open areas, and more protected approaches. I would tend to agree that if they are whining about maps not being open enough, it's because they are the players who like to sit in a corner and just shoot people as they try to cross the open field, and this is exactly the type of player that is counter-productive to finishing the game within the 1 hour time limit for official tournament games.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:08 pm 
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LoboStele wrote:
That's funny. I guess they haven't played on Badlands, Swamp Caves, the new Crystal Caves, Jabba's Throne Room, Peaceful City, Loading Docks....

Yes, a lot of the newer maps do have a lot of doors. But WOTC's maps which are considered the most balanced are the ones with fewer wide open areas, and more protected approaches. I would tend to agree that if they are whining about maps not being open enough, it's because they are the players who like to sit in a corner and just shoot people as they try to cross the open field, and this is exactly the type of player that is counter-productive to finishing the game within the 1 hour time limit for official tournament games.



Considering that there are three of us at the venue with all of the custom maps (I dont have MM1, but still) and Im the most frequent attendee with those maps, but havent played on all of them myself, then no, Im sure they havent played on the ones you listed.

Also, you make a good point with the ones that have few to no doors at all, but considering out of MM2-4 and Chris' 8 maps that are on the market, then that means you listed 6 out of around 40 custom maps out there. Im sure there are more than just those 6, but still, door heavy seems to be a new trend with the custom maps.

Im not vouching for their playstyle, cause in all honesty these concerns were mostly from newer players, but the second pair of maps I listed in my other post, Destroyed Base and Throne Room, yes have those open areas, but from the matches Ive played and seen on those maps it generally comes down to the same type of fight.

On Destroyed Base, one player is in the big room, while the other player is above it, and tries to come in, etc. On Throne Room, the player on the right goes into the big throne room and moves from there into the 'gambit room' while the other player moves up the hallway, or through the docking bay or whatever it is, and moves up towards gambit from there, maybe making use of the room on the bottom of the map as well.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:42 pm 
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Where do you get one of those sweet maps, like the star forge??? :maul: :fight:

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:40 pm 
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LoboStele wrote:
Having played on this map in the Mystery Map tourney at GenCon, it's a pretty map, but it would never get my vote for the Restricted List. The lay-out of the map causes a stand-off type of game play, as you can hide 1, maybe 2 pieces in gambit, and you pretty much get slaughtered by opposing shooters if you try anything else. I was running a Sep squad that had done fairly well throughout the event, I got absolutely slaughtered by a Mando build because he just sat in the back and pummeled anything I revealed.


Can you clarify how he could get away with just sitting in the back if you controlled gambit?

Also, can you explain how it's any different from, say, Throne Room, which also has a wall through gambit, but long LOS to all gambit squares on each player's own side of Gambit?

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:11 pm 
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kothandcandy wrote:
Where do you get one of those sweet maps, like the star forge??? :maul: :fight:


Star Forge is in Map Pack 3 (Desert City Invasion)

You can buy it exclusively from Miniature Market for only $15 which is amazing considering it's 8 maps. But their stock is running low last time I checked, so I'd advise not waiting too long as I think that might be pretty much it for MP3 if they run out.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:21 pm 
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Found the maps, they're listed under Boosters. Which makes no sense at all. Only 8 for Map Pack 3 left...

Sigh, I really wish I hadn't read they were selling out. I realized I hadn't bought it yet so I decided to pick one up. Then I realized I should also pick up some other stuff. Next thing I know, I've ordered another case of MotF in hopes of finishing the set. WTH am I going to do with all the Dejerik pieces now, lol.


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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:09 am 
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jedispyder wrote:
Found the maps, they're listed under Boosters. Which makes no sense at all. Only 8 for Map Pack 3 left...

Sigh, I really wish I hadn't read they were selling out. I realized I hadn't bought it yet so I decided to pick one up. Then I realized I should also pick up some other stuff. Next thing I know, I've ordered another case of MotF in hopes of finishing the set. WTH am I going to do with all the Dejerik pieces now, lol.



Don't worry, Our Store will be getting a whole stash set aside. There's actually more copies than that. It's just that miniature market is only going to sell that many more. After that you'll be able to get them from us.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:13 am 
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jedispyder wrote:
Found the maps, they're listed under Boosters. Which makes no sense at all. Only 8 for Map Pack 3 left...

Sigh, I really wish I hadn't read they were selling out. I realized I hadn't bought it yet so I decided to pick one up. Then I realized I should also pick up some other stuff. Next thing I know, I've ordered another case of MotF in hopes of finishing the set. WTH am I going to do with all the Dejerik pieces now, lol.


The same thing your going to do with all the crap R and VRs from that set, aside from Ganner. Your gonna put them in a box, and never use them again. Why? Cause MotF is the worst set.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:52 am 
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NickName wrote:
LoboStele wrote:
Having played on this map in the Mystery Map tourney at GenCon, it's a pretty map, but it would never get my vote for the Restricted List. The lay-out of the map causes a stand-off type of game play, as you can hide 1, maybe 2 pieces in gambit, and you pretty much get slaughtered by opposing shooters if you try anything else. I was running a Sep squad that had done fairly well throughout the event, I got absolutely slaughtered by a Mando build because he just sat in the back and pummeled anything I revealed.


Can you clarify how he could get away with just sitting in the back if you controlled gambit?

Also, can you explain how it's any different from, say, Throne Room, which also has a wall through gambit, but long LOS to all gambit squares on each player's own side of Gambit?


He had someone in gambit as well. In that regard, it IS a lot like Throne Room, which I tend to not like too much either. But at least with Throne Room, there are ways you can move into the adjoining rooms and not get shot at if your opponent is hanging at the back somewhere. Plus, from both sides on Throne Room, if you set up in such a way to fire into your own gambit area, it's not that tough for the opponent to draw LOS on you from their protected area as well. I don't know. I don't see Spynet HQ as being as balanced as Throne Room, IMO. You need ~ 8-10 squares of movement to get from a fully safe square into the gambit area, whereas Throne Room you can do it from one side in only 5-6. You can have a piece in gambit, and be 100% out of LOS of your opponent, but only be 3-4 squares away, whereas on Spynet HQ, you're a minimum of 6 squares. Plus, drawing LOS with shooters around the center wall of Throne Room is very simple, whereas the turbo-lift cluster on Spynet causes much more movement to move around it. In addition, I can't say that I saw ANYONE actually using those turbolifts in the center. They are just hard to get to, and hard to stay safe inside of them.

Honestly, in the end, it's the little things. It IS a lot like Throne Room, but it takes more movement to get around the center. There's less protection getting from gambit and to the further back areas. Throne Room only allows typically 1 firing lane for protecting your own gambit area, whereas Spynet offers at least 2 from each side, if not more. All of the little nooks and crannies on Spynet cater VERY heavily to Mobile shooters who will want to sit in the back and just pop things off as they try to come across the board and get to the opponent.

As I said before....I was playing a Sep squad which was relatively competitive (Tyranus, Boba, Whorm, etc.), against a Mando squad that was nothing particularly special, and he had absolutely no problem completely destroying me. Just seemed imbalanced toward the Mobile/Hiding shooter squads, and the anti-thesis of what we want Restricted Maps to be.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:58 am 
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Hm. I read through you assessment while looking at it and I'm just not seeing what you're seeing. Granted, I've played one game on it, so there's obviously more direct experience needed. How sure are you that your current opinion isn't be overly influenced by that one bad experience?

Heck, I'm surprised you're critical of Throne Room! :)

I don't really see any difference in having a 4 square run around the gambit divider to 6. Either way you're attacking. I don't see a problem with a completely safe path (like this map has) having a run of 7-12 squares into a safe gambit square--you're into gambit safely on round 2 and you aren't going to be attacking regardless. The longest line into friendly gambit from the right (where you would put the shooters if you're melee) is only 12 squares, so even with mobile he's not entirely out of reach. Those nooks you talk about are equally good for a melee squad trying to advance past the center while controlling gambit so it's easier to close on snipers. In my one game on the map, both Turbo Lifts got opened and occupied without Override being used.

On the surface, it would seem to me that your squad could hold its own against mobile shooters as well as it could on several other current restricted maps (Throne Room, maybe Plaza). Boba should be fine for clearing out enemies from Gambit while remaining reletively safe and forcing him to put new pieces in gambit as you whittle away keeping the rest safe.

Anyway, it's certainly an issue worth keeping in mind, and doing some direct testing with, like concerns about Swamp Caves and Badlands with deep-strike squads, but my gut feeling is neither of these cases will be a fatal flaw.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:34 pm 
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I think maybe all the nooks and low cover is what made the difference. On Throne Room, it's easy to get behind a wall and hide, but once an opponent moves into that room, things are mostly wide-open. On Spynet HQ, there was so much low cover and nook-like corners, that my Boba Merc had virtually no targets the entire game, due to Mobile Attack or Cloaked. Tyranus got to use his Lightning 4 and then he got completely smoked. I actually had pieces hidden in the door way directly to the left of gambit, and my opponent ended up getting LOS from the top hallway and picked off a key piece, while forcing me to move like 14 squares to catch him, by which point he had safely retreated back to other cover-granting terrain. Maybe I was just playing dumb on the map, and maybe it was just a bad game. But it was one of the worst losses I've had in a long time, and I honestly felt like there was hardly anything I could have done to prevent it. At that point, I couldn't even camp in gambit, because the guy could sit 12-16 squares away at the top of the map, and just pick me off, while moving to/from the doors. Trying to go around behind him, and there were more doors to fight through.

I guess that was another part of it, is that there were 4-5 doors that are extremely key, and very hard to get Ugnaughts to, so you're left depending on Override pieces, which must then expose themselves in order to open said doors. For instance, above and slightly to the left of gambit, is the little 6 square room that is absolutely awesome for a camping piece to just sit in there, 100% safe, and move around from time to time to hit anything that tries to cross into their own gambit zone. Good luck getting an Ugo to that door and keeping it alive, as in order to start anywhere within 6 squares of that door for the next round, you have to be exposed to enemy fire. Pretty much the same thing with getting to any of the doors protecting the left side of the map. The door at the top middle is about the only one that can be safely reached.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:57 pm 
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I would like to suggest that for the update to the floor rules for what maps become legal ought to wait til after the official V-set release.

I think this would be easier to work up what map is an issue for the new meta types that evolve after the release of the set, and the general public gets to know what all the pieces do.

If we decide now what maps to add to the restricted list, then when the V-set drops, we may be stuck with a competitive meta squad that dominates on a particular map because of something that was overlooked either by the V-set guys or the people pushing for the maps the most, or more likely, a combination of the two groups.

I think we'd be better served to find out what quirks the V-set gives the game, and then work the map list to try to even the playing field for melee vs shooters vs mobile vs whatever else.

On the Spynet issue, it seems that the Juggernaut War Droid would be fairly valuable on this map to take out some of the more pesky doors, but considering the uncompetitive level the OR currently sits at, it wouldnt really help you that much if you cant do much of anything after the doors are blown open. once the V-set is released, maybe this would be a viable option, as the OR should be considerably more playable.

Am I saying Spynet should be put on the restricted list cause the OR could possibly do well on it, opposed to some other factions who might do poorly? No, but its something to consider.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:38 pm 
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While I can see your point, I think having a fresh map list would be good for the game (and those supporting it) *right now*. It doesn't make sense to me to put off an improvement to the game for several more months just to see how a later improvement to the game shakes out. (I think we can assume that weeks of playtesting would then follow the V-set before any official map list changes actually got implemented...)

When the V-set drops, I'm sure the other cartographers and I will be looking it over and designing new maps with the fresh meta in mind. The maps we have available now, though, are already done and waiting to be purchased, and the subset of players who prefer to play only on tournament-legal maps could have a new selection to try out in the meantime, spiking their SWM interest in the interim and letting them test out some new tactics with their existing collections.

Frankly, the best time to announce a new map list would have been at Gen Con, so that the participants in the championship could pick them up at the show, or win them as prize support, and then go home and immediately start practicing on a bunch of new battlefields. It would support the people making the maps and the people participating in organized play at the time when there's the most direct access between the two groups. I really hope this can be arranged for next year.

(Ideally, I'd like to see the map lists updated twice a year: once in the summer, and once in the winter.)

I don't honestly know if making the maps tournament-legal will generate a big spike in sales for JC, AG7, and myself the way we all hope it will. I can tell you, though, that map sales are pretty sluggish at this time of year and any possible increase in sales for those of us supporting the future of the game would be very welcome.

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Last edited by Mapmaker on Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:44 pm 
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I honestly don't see what will change in the meta that the basics of a good map for restricted will need to change. Maps do play a role, but the basic tenants of a balanced map really won't change.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:09 pm 
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Sithborg wrote:
I honestly don't see what will change in the meta that the basics of a good map for restricted will need to change. Maps do play a role, but the basic tenants of a balanced map really won't change.


Agreed, the two projects do not need to be combined.

@Chris - the plan is to update the maplist twice a year, like we have done in the past. Once in winter, and once in summer. However, this one can be done sooner most likely, if we finish the determination and testing on the maps before January.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 4:21 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 7:57 am 
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billiv15 wrote:
Sithborg wrote:
I honestly don't see what will change in the meta that the basics of a good map for restricted will need to change. Maps do play a role, but the basic tenants of a balanced map really won't change.


Agreed, the two projects do not need to be combined.

@Chris - the plan is to update the maplist twice a year, like we have done in the past. Once in winter, and once in summer. However, this one can be done sooner most likely, if we finish the determination and testing on the maps before January.



As kind of a knee-jerk reaction to another post, I thought the same thing as Chris initially, but as Sithborg said the tenants hold true. I was particularly worried about Deep-strike squads which seemed to be pretty prevalent this year, but I found as I looked at all the other key pieces of a good map that particular squad types began to disappear.

Now if I can just get any results back from the others ;). Seriously though, it's only officially been a week. I just have too much time on my hands and, besides, Gavin is two now so he needs to learn the game ;)

Additionally, my only concern with changing the map list twice in one year is the timing. Obviously you'd be lookign at a January/July type schedule. So as long as all regionals were finished under Map List 1 then I'd be fine with it. There are more than enough maps to do this with, though I don't have an exact number I've been assuming 6 still. If we were to do a twice a year rotation, I would suggest keeping it at 6.

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 Post subject: Re: List of Candidates for the restricted list and standard list
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:55 am 
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Yeah, our current system for updating the map list on January 1st and July 1st works really well, IMO. That gives us 6 months to test the Restricted List as is, as well as the Regionals to really flush out the list. Then if a change is necessary to make sure that GenCon is well balanced, we can do that in July.

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