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 Post subject: Re: Getting along with bloomilk
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 12:08 pm 
The One True Sith Lord
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OMG you really are a turd arent you?

Quoting PM's and taking just part of them. It was my PM you tool!!! From the beginning I have been leery of involving bloomilk in this endeavour. I attempted over a year ago to get them involved when I knew the end was coming. I am still waiting from that response from Shinja. I am also leery of bloomilk.... well because this thread and every other crap stirring thread you have started. Because you, Trapped Slider and CWH008 dont bleieve or like the process. Not the community YOU!!!!

You keep dropping the word leadership. It would be great if you had a clue what you are talking about.

1. Leaders dont take polls to see if their decisions are popular. Leaders forge the path even when it is unpopular. No one charged up a hill against a pillbox in battle because it seemed like a good idea.

2. We are not trying to have a leadership seminar. We are completing a project. A set. We are in production mode.

The only thing I have seen from you is whining about the process which you obviously ignored what has been said to you. You are like a little child screaming in the middle of the store hoping to get your toy after mommy and daddy said no. Where were you during the entire time WoTC was desigining the game. I missed the constant threads demanding the community get involved.

All you have done has proven that I was right to not be very trusting of posting anything on bloomilk. I grow tired of this. I have been more than patient with you and it has been noticed that I have not stripped you of your status here. I can remedy that at any minute. i generally dont do those type of things though. I allow people to vent, gripe or complain here as long as you remain in the COC. But this has gotten to the point where you are just using the quote button to slander and misquote. I suggest you try a new tact as you have been warned.

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 Post subject: Re: Getting along with bloomilk
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 12:28 pm 
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I'm sorry, but taking entire paragraphs shouldn't really be frowned upon. I was always told paragraphs should be in a large part their own ideas. I didn't want to post our whole pm, that's gotta be at least 2-3 pages of word. However I did take out his part from the first paragraph. I don't see what it has to do with the rest of it though, and it calls out shinja which I didn't think had much to do with this here. How does adding this part on really change anyhting?

"You got that right. I am trying to show zero leadership on this forum. You want leadership on this forum try sending a PM to shinja it is his forum which he shows zero control over."

Honestly, if I posted the whole thing, I feel like I would just be accused of throwing walls of text out there. If there is something relevant from those messages that got left out by my quoting, please put it in so we can see the context you wanted. I don't think it's fair to accuse me of taking things out of context when you don't provide the context you think they should have been in. I don't think it's slandering and misquoting at all. If I did, show me, and I will be surprised but still sorry. I didn't think what I posted here was slandering at all.

If you want to post our whole exchange, I have no problem with it. I just thought you and some other people might so I didn't.


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 Post subject: Re: Getting along with bloomilk
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 12:32 pm 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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Motti, you are quite mistaken. No one threatened anything about previews. As it is, that would be impossible, as bloomilk is not slated to receive any previews. What was said that I think you are misrepresenting is where I said I would stop answering questions about the set on bloomilk if certain actions continued.

No one said anything else, and several of your other characterizations of what happened are similarly misleading or falsified. I will lock the thread and take action if you continue to post in such a way.

I do not appreciate being misrepresented by anyone, and you have done so twice on bloomilk to me specifically, and I think this is a third example. The others were when you said that I gave you no answer as to why, which is clearly untrue. I very clearly said what the overriding issue was determining Exar vs Anakin, in that Exar was Exar. You repeatedly said I told you nothing, and that's an outright lie.

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 Post subject: Re: Getting along with bloomilk
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 12:42 pm 
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billiv15 wrote:
Motti, you are quite mistaken. No one threatened anything about previews. As it is, that would be impossible, as bloomilk is not slated to receive any previews. What was said that I think you are misrepresenting is where I said I would stop answering questions about the set on bloomilk if certain actions continued.

No one said anything else, and several of your other characterizations of what happened are similarly misleading or falsified. I will lock the thread and take action if you continue to post in such a way.


I really have to disagree with this, this is where i got the Idea, and like I said, it would be over generous not to call that a threat.

"Honestly....if people are going to be this much up in arms about stupid little stuff*, then we'll be a lot less likely to show off previews. We'll just wait till the whole set is done, and then it will be (hopefully) blatantly obvious that everything is finished, and nothing can be changed."

Is it really unreasonable to summaraize that as "don't complain or we won't give previews?" I think it's pretty accurate. I don;t think that's misleading at all to have that opinion. If you want the whole post, it's on page 9 of that v-set discussion thread.


billiv15 wrote:
I do not appreciate being misrepresented by anyone, and you have done so twice on bloomilk to me specifically, and I think this is a third example. The others were when you said that I gave you no answer as to why, which is clearly untrue. I very clearly said what the overriding issue was determining Exar vs Anakin, in that Exar was Exar. You repeatedly said I told you nothing, and that's an outright lie.


Hmm, you make a good point. I guess I jsut didn't count exar being exar as a reason because it's obvious, you know? Which the more i think about it, the more idiotic that was for me to do. My issue was more that no one compared that to any of the reasons I had. I honestly recall no one saying how any of the reasoning I and a couple other people provided didn't outweigh the exar is exar thing. I guess what I should have said was that nothing was told other than what everyone already knew. I f'd that one up for sure.


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 Post subject: Re: Getting along with bloomilk
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 12:46 pm 
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Dean, Bill, and others in power: Don't let the actions of a few discourage you from sharing previews with BlooMilk. Any site is destined to have a few nitpickers, but I know that I probably speak for the majority of the community when I say I'm excited for the V-Sets, and like any set there will be pieces I like and pieces I don't like. So far I've liked the direction the V-Sets are going, and I look forward to playable OR, Sith, and Mando factions.

I've been keeping track of the pieces coming out, and am looking forward to using some of those non-uniques modeled after Uniques - FINALLY what they were designed for, lol. So I just implore you to try and foster a sharing relationship with BlooMilk with these V-Sets. I think that hosting the images of the cards here on this site and asking for them not to be hosted elsewhere was a good idea, and should remain that way, but I think any Previews you may have planned for this site and others would be great to see on BlooMilk as well. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Getting along with bloomilk
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 12:50 pm 
The One True Sith Lord
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again YOU are stuck on this leadeship thing.

If you want leadership on bloomilk go to the owner of the site..... and may the force be with you getting him to respond.


We are trying to complete a project. Very simple.

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 Post subject: Re: Getting along with bloomilk
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 12:54 pm 
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AM - I'd say the comment you are extrapolating from is more of an aside, than a real threat. You are exaggerating the comment to turn it into a very real threat. Read that comment again, and it's pretty clearly a exaggeration itself.

You are literalizing a comment not intended to literalize. I have to ask, are you a native English speaker? Don't take that as an insult if you are.

Either way, to take that one little comment and run around from board to board claiming that an official stance of not sharing previews has been threatened is most certainly misleading and incorrect. With that said however, the V-set is being produced by Gamers, and supported by it's owner Dean. Those working on the set have the right to do with it as they please, and the sharing of previews is part of that. As far as I know, there are 0 plans to give previews to bloomilk, and that has been true since the beginning. So I am honestly not sure what we could take away anyway. Dean could stop people from posting the stats, and that is his right to do so. But could we stop people from discussing it there? Of course not. To spread around the internet that we would try to do so is a fallacy.

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 Post subject: Re: Getting along with bloomilk
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 1:16 pm 
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billiv15 wrote:
AM - I'd say the comment you are extrapolating from is more of an aside, than a real threat. You are exaggerating the comment to turn it into a very real threat. Read that comment again, and it's pretty clearly a exaggeration itself.

You are literalizing a comment not intended to literalize. I have to ask, are you a native English speaker? Don't take that as an insult if you are.

Either way, to take that one little comment and run around from board to board claiming that an official stance of not sharing previews has been threatened is most certainly misleading and incorrect. With that said however, the V-set is being produced by Gamers, and supported by it's owner Dean. Those working on the set have the right to do with it as they please, and the sharing of previews is part of that. As far as I know, there are 0 plans to give previews to bloomilk, and that has been true since the beginning. So I am honestly not sure what we could take away anyway. Dean could stop people from posting the stats, and that is his right to do so. But could we stop people from discussing it there? Of course not. To spread around the internet that we would try to do so is a fallacy.


First of all, there is no way we can tell that that statement was just about bloomilk. I don't recall lobo saying that it was just to bloomilk after he said that comment. I think what's clear is that we need to ask Lobo what he meant. I don't see how he made that as an exaggeration at all. I think it was entirely clear what he said, (I am a native US english speaker btw, no offense taken). How did I say he said that they would stop people from discussing it at bloomilk? The comment really suggested that previews were less likely to happen at all. Nothing with bloomilk specifically. I think it’s great the previews are given here only. It gives people incentive to come on over.

To me, that comment says what I thought it said. To say that it is obviously an exaggeration only takes away from the accountability that needs to be had for saying it. Read the second sentence. How should that have anything to do with bloomilk specifically? At the very best, that statement is saying, "look, we don't have to give you guys previews."Of course you don't. But it makes no sense to wait until all the pieces are out so all of the compliants can come then. Sure it's less headaches, but the complaints are gonna come regardless. Saying that complaints make previews less likely, regardless of what lobo meant, can really only mean what was said. There was nothing, especially considering the rest of the post, that should suggest he didn’t mean what he said, that it was in jest, said in haste, or anything like that.
Until we are told that criticisms about the pieces in the previews don’t affect whether the previews will be given, there is no reason to believe that his comment isn’t true. No one has said this


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 Post subject: Re: Getting along with bloomilk
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 1:19 pm 
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dnemiller wrote:
When your allies to your argument on bloomilk are Trapped Slider.... well I can pretty much tell you that you are going to meet resistance.


dnemiller wrote:
Because you, Trapped Slider and CWH008 dont bleieve or like the process. Not the community YOU!!!!


AFAIK,I haven't said one thing for or aginst the v-sets,i've only asked questions which got answers (thanks to those who answered them btw:) ) and to be honest,they are looking good. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Getting along with bloomilk
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 1:23 pm 
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Well considering Lobo isn't in charge of previews in any way (neither am I btw, I asked specifically for permission from the design team before previewing Bandon on SWMiniverse), it's not a real threat.

My point is, you didn't understand the comment, and took it to mean something that it didn't say. Further, you've gone about using it as if it's real proof that everything else you've claimed is also true. It's just like the comments you've made regarding my statements. You took them to mean something else, and used your false understanding as justification for action (against us).

I know someone else who used to do that as well, and he lost his job because of it. That is not a threat, that's a statement of fact. You need to be very careful that you know what has been said before making grander claims in the name of it. I can tell you, Lobo himself has no control over previews, and the comment was an aside.

An aside that meant something like, "Well guys, if all we can do is complain, odds are the designers will just stop posting stuff for us". That's what it meant, regardless of how you incorrectly understood it. Next time, be sure you understand a comment before you blow it up into a three forum fight. That's what you have done repeatedly in this, and that's what has people upset with you (understand that even as a victim of it, I am not upset at you). I get that you care, and want what is best, but you will have to do a better job of understanding how your comments are being taken by others and seen as unecessarily negative and insulting.

But if what you need is reassurance, then I can tell you the design team intends to continue to preview figures before release. Nothing you have done has changed their plans as far as I am aware.

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 Post subject: Re: Getting along with bloomilk
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 1:30 pm 
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billiv15 wrote:
An aside that meant something like, "Well guys, if all we can do is complain, odds are the designers will just stop posting stuff for us". That's what it meant, regardless of how you incorrectly understood it.

But if what you need is reassurance, then I can tell you the design team intends to continue to preview figures before release. Nothing you have done has changed their plans as far as I am aware.


That's what I was wondering. That answers a big question, thank you. Thank you for addressing an issue I had. It's a big relief when something is actually addressed, and I hope we see more of that, not only for my own concers, but for many that may arise, especially over at bloomilk.


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 Post subject: Re: Getting along with bloomilk
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 1:34 pm 
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I will just suggest that if you have an issue, bloomilk public forums are not the best place to address them. Many of us have legitimate reasons to not want to discuss a lot on there because of the prevalence of trolls. Just make a thread on here and odds are you will get a real conversation instead of a fight.

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 Post subject: Re: Getting along with bloomilk
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 1:36 pm 
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billiv15 wrote:
I will just suggest that if you have an issue, bloomilk public forums are not the best place to address them. Many of us have legitimate reasons to not want to discuss a lot on there because of the prevalence of trolls. Just make a thread on here and odds are you will get a real conversation instead of a fight.


A good point. Thanks for helping this move forward. I will remember to come here for the issues.


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 Post subject: Re: Getting along with bloomilk
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 1:56 pm 
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Here's my refined list of remaining questions. A big thanks to those who have been helpful so far. Obviously I can't force you to discuss these issues, but it would be best IMO to discuss these or not post. If new important things come up that need to be discussed, that's a good thing. If you want to go after me personally I can't stop you, but I just wish that these questions be the focus.

1. Why is “with us or against us” what is continually being preached? How is that good?

2. Why is the idea of minor involvement continually blown up into “everyone on every aspect’?

3. Why is suggesting that people outside the design team might have ideas to add equated with saying the design team is incompetent or that I think I can myself do better?

4. Why is asking for a change met with an accusations that I (or anyone else who wants a change) wants their every whim satisfied?

5. Why is this such a bad idea?:
Almost immediately after the set list is finalized (making it for this set probably unreasonable), ONE (1) figure name is released and in an official thread here on Gamers, people weigh in on what they would like to see this figure do, and one week (or whatever) is allowed for input. The designers peruse through (or look at a simplified form that someone volunteers to type up for them), and see if there's anything they want to use, perhaps there's something that many people want and wouldn't be too broken, or perhaps there's literally nothing of use. Regardless, the community had a chance to get input on the actual design. It's up to them to provide a good engough idea to be accepted, nad regardess of what is accepted, they would have been involved. It's really not that different from the character or special ability request threads here, except it's more specific, in a later design stage, and for a much more limited amount of time.

6. Should criticism of pieces be equated with being against the effort going on here?


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 Post subject: Re: Getting along with bloomilk
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:28 pm 
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Ok, I will give one set of answers, and that's it.

AdmiralMotti89 wrote:
1. Why is “with us or against us” what is continually being preached? How is that good?
It isn't, and characterizing it as such just creates more dissension and fighting. You've already been informed of some of the bloomilk history, and we have many people working on the set in many fashions.

AdmiralMotti89 wrote:
2. Why is the idea of minor involvement continually blown up into “everyone on every aspect’?
We already have a lot of involvement. No more is needed at this specific time. To ignore what has been done already, is to say that something is wrong, when most people do not think there are problems with the system as is.

AdmiralMotti89 wrote:
3. Why is suggesting that people outside the design team might have ideas to add equated with saying the design team is incompetent or that I think I can myself do better?
Well, that too isn't what has been said. The design team of the project were chosen for various reasons. As it is, the funniest thing about your question is that as of yet, I've not seen a single idea mentioned on any of the three sites that was not already discussed by the designers. So, if a ton of serious ideas are being missed, I sure as hell am not seeing it.

AdmiralMotti89 wrote:
4. Why is asking for a change met with an accusations that I (or anyone else who wants a change) wants their every whim satisfied?
Because asking for change sets a very dangerous precedent, one that no one who thinks it through would really want to occur. Imagine if the designers released the set, then started changing things willy nilly based on feedback. It would never work. You will have to accept like everyone else that you won't like certain things, but that they are not going to be changed after the fact. That's the nature of the response.

AdmiralMotti89 wrote:
5. Why is this such a bad idea?:
Almost immediately after the set list is finalized (making it for this set probably unreasonable), ONE (1) figure name is released and in an official thread here on Gamers, people weigh in on what they would like to see this figure do, and one week (or whatever) is allowed for input. The designers peruse through (or look at a simplified form that someone volunteers to type up for them), and see if there's anything they want to use, perhaps there's something that many people want and wouldn't be too broken, or perhaps there's literally nothing of use. Regardless, the community had a chance to get input on the actual design. It's up to them to provide a good engough idea to be accepted, nad regardess of what is accepted, they would have been involved. It's really not that different from the character or special ability request threads here, except it's more specific, in a later design stage, and for a much more limited amount of time.
Well it's not a terrible idea actually. It has it's faults, but things like this are in the general plans. Like for example, having the Gencon champ design a mini. But to do this in the way you've laid it out, it is a very bad idea. The problem is, that the community at large cannot know the entire set, the design goals, future plans, etc, and therefore cannot fit a mini into the larger context. I understand not everyone recognizes how important those things are in design, but they really are critical components, almost more so than any stat set put together.

In short, if the designers want to do something like this (I really doubt they want the headache), they could, but it's up to them, and them alone. Demanding that such happens just because you personally don't get why they wouldn't want to is insulting and irritating.

AdmiralMotti89 wrote:
6. Should criticism of pieces be equated with being against the effort going on here?
Um no, and that most certainly has not been the case. The designers have not even posted outside of Boris, and if I remember correctly, he hasn't responded to any criticism, just the idea that they are buying up minis to make money. This is a non-sequitur.

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 Post subject: Re: Getting along with bloomilk
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:25 pm 
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billiv15 wrote:

It isn't, and characterizing it as such just creates more dissension and fighting. You've already been informed of some of the bloomilk history, and we have many people working on the set in many fashions.


I think if you think that then you are being overly generous to dnemillers comments:

“Simply if you dont like the Virtual Set dont use it. If you have a problem with what the design team does then dont use the V-Set.”

“Now you are upset at the process of creating the set. Well sorry it is what it is. Dont like it then dont use it.”

How are these good comments? Shouldn’t it be “if you don’t like what we’re doing, go over to gamers and post ideas in the forum to help us do it better,” or something similar. Why is dean so against people trying to help when that help comes in the form of disagreement? (I’ve asked him myself, but he has never answered that question) . He basically just says “there you go with the leadership issue again,” but never actually addresses it.

billiv15 wrote:

We already have a lot of involvement. No more is needed at this specific time. To ignore what has been done already, is to say that something is wrong, when most people do not think there are problems with the system as is.


That might have something to do with suggestions for more input (such as the idea I have below) are treated as asking for everyone being involved on every aspect. Refer to this thread alone for several examples of that. There is no opportunity for even allowing to discuss opportunity for more input because those requests are blown up into calling for a total community effort on all 60 pieces.

billiv15 wrote:

Well, that too isn't what has been said. The design team of the project were chosen for various reasons. As it is, the funniest thing about your question is that as of yet, I've not seen a single idea mentioned on any of the three sites that was not already discussed by the designers. So, if a ton of serious ideas are being missed, I sure as hell am not seeing it.


You might have missed this in a post on Bloomilk: “You said "very disheartening that you equate the design team having discussed the issue with the issue having been fully and thoroughly discussed." Well I'm very sorry to hear that you have that little faith in the design team. Do you think you're THAT much more intelligent than ALL of the design team, that no one thought of the idea of using Ani FS instead of Exar?”

Regardless of whether anything has been found to be wanting for change yet (if you want to debate about that I might be up for it in another thread), your statement seems to indicate that you think that there is literally nothing important that the design team couldn’t think of. The next point is where we are discussing whether allowing for input actually harms anything.

billiv15 wrote:

Because asking for change sets a very dangerous precedent, one that no one who thinks it through would really want to occur. Imagine if the designers released the set, then started changing things willy nilly based on feedback. It would never work. You will have to accept like everyone else that you won't like certain things, but that they are not going to be changed after the fact. That's the nature of the response.


I was never talking about after the set was released. It is not released now. There is no after the fact because it is simply NOT after the fact. It’s pretty awful that those in charge seem to be wanting to hold back criticism until the set is released BECAUSE it’s too late to change anything then. I don’t expect that every whim be changed. Heck, I have no use for the Sith Acolyte, it’s just not my style, but I’m not calling for a re-do. The issue is that as soon as a preview is given, some of the people in charge over here, design team or not, say automatically that nothing will be changed save for typos. It’s an opportunity to get into discussion and justification and legitimization, but instead it’s take it or leave it.

billiv15 wrote:

Well it's not a terrible idea actually. It has it's faults, but things like this are in the general plans. Like for example, having the Gencon champ design a mini. But to do this in the way you've laid it out, it is a very bad idea. The problem is, that the community at large cannot know the entire set, the design goals, future plans, etc, and therefore cannot fit a mini into the larger context. I understand not everyone recognizes how important those things are in design, but they really are critical components, almost more so than any stat set put together.


That’s why it be done immediately after the characters are selected. That’s why it be just be a place to make suggestions. That’s why the suggestions can be adapted into any context that may have already existed, and if there are no adaptable ideas, they must all be refused.

billiv15 wrote:

In short, if the designers want to do something like this (I really doubt they want the headache), they could, but it's up to them, and them alone. Demanding that such happens just because you personally don't get why they wouldn't want to is insulting and irritating.


I don’t think something being a headache is reason enough not to do it. I’m sure they thought many of the threads in this forum were a headache as well. If the design team doesn’t answer, who is supposed to answer? If community involvement is worth doing, shouldn’t it be discussed as to how much should be done?

billiv15 wrote:

Um no, and that most certainly has not been the case. The designers have not even posted outside of Boris, and if I remember correctly, he hasn't responded to any criticism, just the idea that they are buying up minis to make money. This is a non-sequitur.


This has a lot to do with the #1. When telling dnemiller that I thought his posts of take it or leave it do nothing positive in terms of leading this effort, he says that he won’t try to be a leader because they won’t follow. Maybe if something worth following (like an attitude towards improvement rather than polarization), there will be more people latching on to this effort that has a chance to be much better than wizards or the SWCCGPC ever did. Whether dnemiller is a designer or not, what good does the polarization do? (How are his comments not polarization, BTW?)

I understand if you don’t want to keep posting on it, but it would be nice to actually talk about it rather then accuse me of describing incidents that never happened, when it’s pretty clear (EDIT: at least to me) they did. Maybe it wasn;t all from you (most of it wasn’t actually), but the postings of the many leaders here over on bloomilk give no one any reason to come over here from there and join in.


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 Post subject: Re: Getting along with bloomilk
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:52 pm 
The One True Sith Lord
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What are you like freakin 12 years old?????

can you not misquote me anymore you jerk!!

I told you that I have no interest in having or being any sort of leader on bloomilk.....WTF do you not get about that. They have shinja and apparently that is enough for them. I not interested in leading the bloomilk crowd or what they are doing. Why? Because they are generally a younger crowd that when things dont go their way they resort to flaming and become trolls.

I told you exactly what we have said about the v-set all along. If you dont like the v-set, if you dont play competitively then dont use it. It is not a effing requirement to play the game. If you are a casual player do what you want. What is new about that?

Can you f**king beat a dead horse anymore than you currently are???

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 Post subject: Re: Getting along with bloomilk
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 4:38 pm 
Sith Marauder
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This thread is getting way out of hand. The reason I say this is because this isn't about just the community, but basically breaches toward a level which involves with disagreements between Dean and Bill, or perhaps to the designers in a more personal level. The disruption within this thread will end and you needed to have the situation sort out in a form of a pm. Therefore I am locking this topic and will have it reviewed whether it is clear to proceed out in to the public

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 Post subject: Re: Getting along with bloomilk
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:53 am 
Master of the Order
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I know the topic is locked at the moment, but since my name kept getting brought up consistently, I figured I should address some of it. I will go ahead and un-lock it, but the personal attacks MUST stop. Motti, Dean, none of this needs to about anybody's leadership abilities. Motti, if you have a personal issue with anybody in all of this, take it to PMs. Public forums are for discussion of public issues. If it's a 1-on-1 issue, take it to PMs.

That said....


I apologize for the "threat" about not doing previews. It wasn't intended to be a threat, and I would have hoped that you (and the rest of the forum-goers) would realize that the heated tone of my posts was obvious, and that it was a rather throw-away kind of comment. It should have been rather obvious anyways. It was pretty much like saying "Wow....here we are being nice by giving previews, when absolutely nothing requires that we do so, and we're getting is crap for it. Well, we don't like being crapped on, so because of this, we might be less likely to give previews in the future." It was mostly a hollow threat anyways, as we are all well aware of the fact that previews generate interest, and are for the best in the end anyways.


AdmiralMotti89 wrote:
The fact that my constructive criticism, when I thought that some might be useful, met with senstationalism and hostility, becasue I thought that criticiszing a rough draft might help (How is that unreasonable?).


I think this is a MAJOR reason why this has turned into such a fiasco. The 5 pieces previewed so far are NOT rough drafts. In the mind of the designers and the play-testers, these are finished pieces. Granted, we have the flexibility to make minor changes if absolutely necessary (like typos). And if there really was an enormous balance issue (for instance, if Bandon's CE really was horridly overpowered as all allies vs. Sith Allies or something), then yeah, we'd be able to fix that. But no comments were ever made to say that these pieces were 'rough drafts' and still needed work. We would have never chosen to reveal them if we didn't think they were ready to be revealed. Heck, Exar's card went through like 4 major edits just in the week before GenCon to make sure he was absolutely right before we previewed him.

So I think that's where a lot of the difference between people came from.

AdmiralMotti89 wrote:
How are these good comments? Shouldn’t it be “if you don’t like what we’re doing, go over to gamers and post ideas in the forum to help us do it better,” or something similar. Why is dean so against people trying to help when that help comes in the form of disagreement? (I’ve asked him myself, but he has never answered that question) . He basically just says “there you go with the leadership issue again,” but never actually addresses it.


Yes, that's probably the way it should be handled. But you know, some of us have been around the forums for this game for 4+ years now. We've told people over and over and over and over again to provide constructive criticism, and go to the appropriate places to give feedback. On top of that, you kept asking the exact same question over and over and over again, and we were giving you the best answers we could, and yet you keep asking the questions. So eventually, we get exasperated and just think "Well fine! You don't like any of the answers we can give you, so just take what we're giving you and be happy you're at least getting that, or go find something else to spend your time on." This isn't necessarily just about you in this regard, and you have to understand that there is YEARS of this kind of crap that some of us have dealt with. We're tired of it, and sometimes would like to just give an answer, and be done with the discussion. If you don't like the answer, well, I'm sorry, but that's how it is. Just because you think you have a better suggestion, does not mean that everybody else thinks your suggestion is good (and I'm using the general "you" there, not specifically referring to Motti, as this applies to the whole community in general).

AdmiralMotti89 wrote:
That might have something to do with suggestions for more input (such as the idea I have below) are treated as asking for everyone being involved on every aspect. Refer to this thread alone for several examples of that. There is no opportunity for even allowing to discuss opportunity for more input because those requests are blown up into calling for a total community effort on all 60 pieces.


Honestly, I think this one keeps getting interpreted this way simply because most of us feel like the community involvement has been VERY high already. To have more involvement than we already do, there is not much more except to let them be involved in every aspect of the design. I do understand that it's a large leap between 1 piece and all 60 pieces, and perhaps designing just 1 piece via the community is something to be explored in the future. However, I think most people I've talked with would agree that the huge threads which you, Motti, organized and spear-headed (which are awesome, BTW, and DEFINITELY have been used) are exactly what you're asking for. They may not be a thread about 1 single piece where everyone weighs in, but there are certainly common characters in every one of those threads, and the community has given their input on those pieces.

Now, the part that really sucks about it is....even if we DID do a thread for just a single piece, even with the way you've suggested it, the Design team could ignore everything suggested and do their own thing if they wanted. So in the end, would it really make much difference, or be different from how we're currently doing it? No, not really. The only difference is that the community would know for sure what 1 name on the set list was.

I may have more to post on this all later, but I gotta run at the moment.

Let's try to keep the discussion a little more level headed.

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 Post subject: Re: Getting along with bloomilk
PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:26 pm 
Sith Apprentice
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Most of the time when companies state that there will be 'community involvement' in designing pieces, it's really mostly an advertising gimmick. The players will be picking from a limited number of mostly pre-compiled choices, or will pick only one relatively minor aspect of the figure. At best they might be able to request, "I'd like a piece with the ability to do this..." and then it's up to the designers to take that request and try to make it happen or almost happen without ruining game balance.

The situation is compounded when you take copyright considerations into effect, which should be less of a problem here, since there's no money involved. Playtesters and people who submit feedback usually have to sign something that essentially says any input they provide belongs to the company.

Companies also hire people who are dedicated to compiling playtest feedback as part of their job.

The lists of 'what figures do you want' or 'what abilities do you want to see' is essentially a level of involvement that I think a project like this warrants. It already sounds like there are three times more people doing the design work than there was with WotC, there are probably more playtesters, and they've probably already solicited a lot more ideas from the community than WotC ever did.


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