logo

All times are UTC - 6 hours

Mark forums read


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 50 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: 3/2 scoring software
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:28 pm 
The One True Sith Lord
The One True Sith Lord
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:12 pm
Posts: 2026
Location: Nixa,Missouri
Ok so it is getting to nut cutting time how are we looking on the 3/2 software and its reliability?

_________________
ImageImage
"What is your bidding, My Master?"

Collection: 934/934

SWM DCI Content Manager


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: 3/2 scoring software
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:29 pm 
The One True Sith Lord
The One True Sith Lord
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:12 pm
Posts: 2026
Location: Nixa,Missouri
sorry the double post but we are in the middle of another freakin huge storm.

Man we just have not ever had these in July before.

_________________
ImageImage
"What is your bidding, My Master?"

Collection: 934/934

SWM DCI Content Manager


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: 3/2 scoring software
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:35 pm 
Big Bad Brad
Big Bad Brad
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:14 am
Posts: 5344
Works well, any problems I have seen are pretty much user error.

I know several of the regionals and judges had problems with people being paired together again but I have ran a couple of tests over the issue. The fact is, the program is doing its job with total computer-like accuracy. It is absolutely correct that they are paired together, its just not something we are used to. I suggest, especially for larger matches, that we allow this to occur, and since we do for the big tournaments, we may as well across the board.

_________________
"200 or 2"
"Consistency is the key, not crying"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: 3/2 scoring software
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:08 am 
Sith Apprentice
Sith Apprentice
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 2:44 pm
Posts: 237
Location: Owensboro, Ky
Yeah it will be a real pain to try and determine who has played each other before and then manually repair those people in a 60+ person event.

_________________
Do or Do not. There is no try.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: 3/2 scoring software
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:30 am 
Hall of Fame Member
Hall of Fame Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:33 pm
Posts: 589
Location: Central Pennsylvania
I think it is more important to keep the 3/2 scoring and deal with/ ignore any inherent issues. I don't see an easy manual way to deal with people playing each other more than once.

_________________
Cancer is not the boss of me.

Being organized is for people who are too lazy to look for their stuff.

Lasers make everything better... except Alderaan.

Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: 3/2 scoring software
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:13 am 
Name Calling Internet Bully
Name Calling Internet Bully
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:10 pm
Posts: 6172
Location: Gurnee, IL
Yep, the only way to deal with it is to add more code (quite a bit actually) to the software - and I'm not even certain you can do it with Exel anyway. The Swiss pairing software uses a very complex additional algorithm to prevent it, and it would be virtually impossible to do for a 60+ person tournament manually.

In terms of fairness, it really isn't unfair at all as Brad mentioned. It's actually more fair than the old system of avoiding such match ups (for example two 4-1s facing each other for the second time, rather than each of them facing a 3-2). It's just we weren't used to it and assumed it was a problem. But as you said, the more you think about it the more it simply makes the most sense anyways.

I vote let it happen. Rematches are a part of most competitions anyways.

_________________
Image

http://www.bloomilk.com/Squads/Search.aspx?UserID=29


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: 3/2 scoring software
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:10 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
Imperial Dignitaries
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 12:42 pm
Posts: 3599
Location: New Jersey
Yes, if big changes in competitive play and organization are afoot anyways, we might as well roll with them. This is just another change, and one that (as Bill says) does make sense if you think about it. It's just part of the game, now. After all, I'd rather have the 3-2 scoring system than the older system which promoted points-wins rather than full victories; this is just a small sacrifice necessary to make it happen, really.

As long as it is explained for the players beforehand at the start of the (or each) tourney that they could be legitimately given a rematch, I don't see it being a big problem.


EDIT: Having said that, I do think that there should be some effort made to keep rematches from happening if possible. I don't know the programming side of things, but I do think it would be nice if players would be rematched with each other only as a last resort. For example, rather than all the 9-point players being drawn entirely at random, with no consideration given to previous pairings, I think it would be good if the program made an effort to pair all those 9-point players other 9-point players who they've not played against yet. That would be better than 3 rematches of 9-point players happening in a single round, simply because that's the way the cookiee crumbled. Ideally, we'll only have a maximum of 1 re-pairing each round, for each of the point-placings (ie, those with 9pts, 8pts, 7pts, etc). Again, I understand that I don't understand the programming that's beneath a project like this, but I'm just sharing my opinion. :)

_________________
"Don't give the tool more credit than the master." --Weeks
ImageImage


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: 3/2 scoring software
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:09 pm 
Master of the Order
Master of the Order
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 2:46 pm
Posts: 7960
Location: West Chester, OH (near Cincinnati)
Whoops, posted in the duplicate thread. :P

Here's what I put:
LoboStele wrote:
Well, you're going to need a laptop that can run Excel, and there's still a slight chance that I may not be there for GenCon at all. So, may have to have a cell phone at the ready to call me if there's problems.

But right now.....I've only got the program working for up to 6 rounds and 64 players. I've not had the time to work on the 7 round/128 player version. And there are almost certainly going to be some errors with the pairings. I'll do what I can to work on between now and then, but I'm honestly not sure if I can guarantee anything.

You may have to fall back on the plan of just using the DCI software to do the pairings, and then keep a separate list with 3/2 scores. I really hate to do that though, so I'll see what I can work with in the next 3 weeks.

Work and home life have just been an absolute wreck lately. I've been lucky to get 6 hours of sleep each night, and typically running less than 4 hours of sleep on the weekends due to helping out with various things. Sort of sucks because most of it isn't because I'm doing 'fun' stuff for myself. I mean, yeah, I enjoy what I'm doing most of the time, but it's usually helping other people (mainly my wife) with their projects. Sorry to vent a bit, but just wanted to let you guys know that life has been legitimately crazy, and I'm not just blowing you off on this or anything like that.

Will see what I can whip up...Well, you're going to need a laptop that can run Excel, and there's still a slight chance that I may not be there for GenCon at all. So, may have to have a cell phone at the ready to call me if there's problems.

But right now.....I've only got the program working for up to 6 rounds and 64 players. I've not had the time to work on the 7 round/128 player version. And there are almost certainly going to be some errors with the pairings. I'll do what I can to work on between now and then, but I'm honestly not sure if I can guarantee anything.

You may have to fall back on the plan of just using the DCI software to do the pairings, and then keep a separate list with 3/2 scores. I really hate to do that though, so I'll see what I can work with in the next 3 weeks.

Work and home life have just been an absolute wreck lately. I've been lucky to get 6 hours of sleep each night, and typically running less than 4 hours of sleep on the weekends due to helping out with various things. Sort of sucks because most of it isn't because I'm doing 'fun' stuff for myself. I mean, yeah, I enjoy what I'm doing most of the time, but it's usually helping other people (mainly my wife) with their projects. Sorry to vent a bit, but just wanted to let you guys know that life has been legitimately crazy, and I'm not just blowing you off on this or anything like that.

Will see what I can whip up...


In addition, the programming IS quite complicated, but I've had a couple ideas floating around my head to work on the issue, just haven't had a chance to actually program it in yet. We'll see if I can pull it off. What typically happens, is that you get a bunch of people that all have the exact same record, I mean exactly the same Points, Wins, %, Head-to-head, and OMW%. It happens a lot. Once those 5 tie-breakers have been sorted by the program, then it's totally random as to who plays who. I have some control built into it to try and get past those issues, but it doesn't work 100% of the time still at that point. Actually, one of the cool things you can do at that point, is to just hit the 'Perform Pairings' button for that round again. Because there is a random factor involved, sometimes, it might fix it if you click the button a couple times more.

I always want to quickly code in something that will highlight cells where you have players who have a re-match, or when the same person gets paired against more than 1 opponent (as I've seen that one too).

Anyways....we'll see what I can pull off before then.

FYI...if I do make it to GenCon, I will NOT be able to use my laptop for that weekend, as it's technically my work laptop. So someone else will need to supply a laptop with Excel, and PLEASE have tested the Excel file out before we get there. ;) (I will likely bring my laptop with me for the weekend if I can, just I won't be able to use it for running the tournaments.)

_________________
-Aaron
Mand'alor
"You either die a hero, or you live to see yourself become the villain."
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: 3/2 scoring software
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:26 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
Imperial Dignitaries
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 12:42 pm
Posts: 3599
Location: New Jersey
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Aaron. As for being busy and not having much time, I can certainly identify with you to some degree, as I think most of us can. :) Thanks for all you've done and continue to do.

If nothing else works, it could be that hitting the 'Perform Pairings' button again might be the best option; it would also be less work for you, which would be a welcome thing, I'm sure. :) Having the program highlight any rematches would be useful in that regard, since the TO would be able to tell with a quick glance how many rematches there are, and then use that information to decide whether or not to hit the button again.

As for bringing a laptop, I'd be happy to bring mine, but alas, it's also a work computer. Maybe someone else has one they can bring.

I hope you can attend again this year!

_________________
"Don't give the tool more credit than the master." --Weeks
ImageImage


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: 3/2 scoring software
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:29 pm 
The One True Sith Lord
The One True Sith Lord
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:12 pm
Posts: 2026
Location: Nixa,Missouri
well I am bringing my laptop to run the events I just want to make sure someone has the latest greatest version of the scoring software with them.

I have excel on my laptop so that should not be an issue.

_________________
ImageImage
"What is your bidding, My Master?"

Collection: 934/934

SWM DCI Content Manager


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: 3/2 scoring software
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 1:17 pm 
Big Bad Brad
Big Bad Brad
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:14 am
Posts: 5344
In my tests after the Kokomo regional, I haven't see any cases where a rematch occurred after going through all the Tiebreakers. I can see this occurring in large tournaments such as the Championship, but in the Regional sized tournament it was usually pretty exact. In other words, in tournaments where 30 people or more participated, the tiebreakers usually sorted it out well enough, and any rematches occurred because the players were placed X/X+1. I never found a case, where a rematch could have been assigned (accurately) to another player instead.

In a case where we double the participants, it is more likely that it could occur where a rematch isn't mathematically necessary. I think, though, that will be the exception and not the rule. I don't think trying to correct it is worth the effort and ends up having a greater negative? impact on the smaller (majority) tournaments.

_________________
"200 or 2"
"Consistency is the key, not crying"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: 3/2 scoring software
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 1:29 pm 
Master of the Order
Master of the Order
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 2:46 pm
Posts: 7960
Location: West Chester, OH (near Cincinnati)
Well, for most of the events at GenCon, with 40+ people, we honestly probably won't run into hardly any problems. I've noticed that my Excel program works better and better the more people you have playing. Small groups always goof it up.

The nice part about that is, small groups are easier to catch the problems and easily fix them. So it works out OK.

_________________
-Aaron
Mand'alor
"You either die a hero, or you live to see yourself become the villain."
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: 3/2 scoring software
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:01 pm 
Death Star Designers
Death Star Designers
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:18 am
Posts: 532
Location: Eugene Oregon
We have found the only time we have ahd issues is when we have 5 people and 3 rounds, than it can do double pairings based on records and bye issues, when we have done more players we have never had an issue. Of course you can always manually switch 2 sets of people to get it close if it's noticed.

_________________
Text Based RP @ The Galactic War Site


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: 3/2 scoring software
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 4:31 am 
Hall of Fame Member
Hall of Fame Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:33 pm
Posts: 589
Location: Central Pennsylvania
LoboStele wrote:
I've noticed that my Excel program works better and better the more people you have playing. Small groups always goof it up.


Amend that to small groups and truck drivers.

_________________
Cancer is not the boss of me.

Being organized is for people who are too lazy to look for their stuff.

Lasers make everything better... except Alderaan.

Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: 3/2 scoring software
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:40 pm 
Jedi Battlemaster
Jedi Battlemaster
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:46 pm
Posts: 3199
Location: Waterloo, ON
I can also be sure to have my laptop with me (though maybe not in the gaming area) in the event of some emergency.

_________________
Winner of the Knights of the SWMGamers Stats Contest
<Joruus (GFC)> - Sheesh, I swear you're like Fool 2.0 (and you can quote me on it xD)
Archives of the Gamers Jedi
Join the FOLLY! Online casual League, find out more here: FOLLY


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: 3/2 scoring software
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:52 pm 
Dark Lord of the Sith
Dark Lord of the Sith
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:38 am
Posts: 1959
I can bring my laptop not the one i fell down the stairs with.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: 3/2 scoring software
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 2:37 pm 
Hand of the Sith
Hand of the Sith

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:41 pm
Posts: 877
Location: Olivet Mi
Any news on this or do we have a backup plan :fight2:


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: 3/2 scoring software
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 3:19 pm 
Dark Lord of the Sith
Dark Lord of the Sith
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:38 am
Posts: 1959
Backup plan
We will go to the DCI software for pairings and Lobo's for the Scoring.

The pairing twice really isnt a mistake we just havent play with it before.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: 3/2 scoring software
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 4:00 pm 
Big Bad Brad
Big Bad Brad
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:14 am
Posts: 5344
jonnyb815 wrote:
Backup plan
We will go to the DCI software for pairings and Lobo's for the Scoring.

The pairing twice really isnt a mistake we just havent play with it before.



To do this, we would still manually have to pair the players in Aaron's program. For 60+ players....no thanks.

Not too mention, the DCI progra m wouldn't necessarily be pairing players correctly in later rounds as it records wins and not points. Imagine in the fifth round a 10pt 5-0 being paired with a 15 point 5-0. Hrmmmmm....which is worse...?

_________________
"200 or 2"
"Consistency is the key, not crying"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: 3/2 scoring software
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 4:18 pm 
Dark Lord of the Sith
Dark Lord of the Sith
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:38 am
Posts: 1959
well its that or we have Matt not play and he is our human computer :D . Odds are we shouldnt run into any problems because pairing twice for the most part isnt a mistake.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 50 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours

Mark forums read

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Jedi Knights style by Scott Stubblefield