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 Post subject: GenCon Team Tournament Floor Rules V2.0
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:43 am 
Unnamed Stormtrooper
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Teams will consist of 3 players each. Each player within a team will build a 200pt squad from a different faction. During squad building, unique characters with the same name can be used only once within in a team. Different versions of characters can be used by different players within a team. The Restricted map list will be used for this event.

Player matchups between teams will be the same as last year. Each team will roll 1 die. The team with the higher die roll will choose the first matchup between players. The opposing team will then decide the other two matchups. All players will have the opportunity to look over the opposing team’s squad list, to help your team make the best decision for matchups. Once matchups are determined, start your games according to normal DCI floor rules.

The results of each game will determine whether you team has won/lost the match. Your team will need to win 2 of the 3 games in order to win the matchup. The first tiebreaker will be the total games won/lost between your teammates. The second tiebreaker will be head-to-head matchups.

Except for the unique character restriction, the floor rules are the same as last year. Here is the big new twist to this event. The maximum number of teams for this event will be 16. If for some reason we don’t have 16 teams register, then we will fall back to a Swiss style format.
The 16 teams will be split up into 4 pools, with 4 teams in each pool. Your team will play each team within your pool once. The winner of each pool will move onto the semifinals.

Below is an example of a legal team squad list and then an example of how pool play will work:
Team Canada’s squad lists from last year

Separatist Rebel

Gen Grevious DAC 57 Luke’s Landspeeder 47
Darth Sideous 36 Dash Rendar, RS 28
Lancer Droid 30 K-3PO 20
Chameleon Droid 25 Princess Leia 20
Battle Droid Officer 8 Bothan Noble 17
IG-86, Assn Droid 16 Dark Hellion Marauder on Swoop 10
Gha Naghkt 12 Gen Rieekan 14
Ugo Demo x3 9 Juno Eclipse 8
Mouse Droid x2 4 Mouse Droid x8 24
Battle Droid 3 Ugo Demo x4 12

New Republic

Kyle Katarn, JBM 54
Mara Jade, Jedi 45
Ossus Guardian 26
Leia Skywalker, JK 25
Gen Wedge Antilles 23
Gen Dodonna 9
Ugo Demo x3 9
Mouse Droid x3 9

As I was looking over Team Canada’s squad list, the only unique character that was duplicated was Gen Dodonna. So, for this example I pulled Dodonna out of the Rebel squad and replaced him with 3 more Mouse Droids.

Pool play example

The following teams are in the same pool:
Team Fear / Team Texas / Team Elitist / Team Cincy

Round 1 matchups
Team Fear vs. Team Texas Team Fear wins (2-1)
Team Elitist vs. Team Cincy Team Elitist wins(2-1)

Round 2 matchups
Team Fear vs. Team Elitist Team Fear wins(2-1)
Team Texas vs. Team Cincy Team Cincy wins(3-0)

Round 3 matchups
Team Fear vs. Team Cincy Team Cincy wins (2-1)
Team Elitist vs. Team Texas Team Elitist wins (2-1)

Pool results are as follows:

Team Cincy 6victory pts(6-3)
Team Fear 6victory pts(5-4)
Team Elitist 6victory pts(5-4)
Team Texas 0victory pts(2-7)

As you can see, Team Cincy will move onto the semifinals because their player record was better than the other 2 teams in their pool. Team Fear would place 2nd in their pool because of the head-to-head win vs. Team Elitist.

I believe that pool play will last for 4 hours. 50 minute rounds with extra time for matchup decisions and for bathroom/smoke breaks. I would like to have a time clock for each pool, to help move the event faster. I will bring 2 clocks, so I will need some help from all of you for the extra 2 clocks needed.
Depending on where we are located, I would like to have a large posterboard up on the wall to display the names of the teams that have registered. When a team registers, a team member will roll a die to determine which pool they will be in. So at the start, the first team will roll an 8-sider. A roll of 1 or 5 will place you in Pool A, a roll of 2 or 6 will place you in Pool B and so forth. Once a pool is filled, the die will change to a 6-sider. Once 2 pools are filled the die will change to a 4-sider. This is the best way to randomize each pool of teams. I would like to start registering teams on Thursday. For anyone that has purchased an official event ticket for the Team Tournament and doesn’t get in for whatever reason, I will refund their money myself. If you are using generic tickets for the event and you are left out, you can still use those tickets for other events. I don’t believe that GenCon officials will refund for the actual event ticket. I believe that they will credit your GenCon account for any generic tickets that you can’t use. Those funds can be used for future GenCons. Well, what do you think? I’m hoping that this year’s edition will run smoother and be more fun for the players than last year’s edition.

Oh, by the way. The first day of GenCon is my 36th birthday. Where are we having drinks Thursday night?


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 Post subject: Re: GenCon Team Tournament Floor Rules V2.0
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:13 pm 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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I dont think trying to limit the number is fair.I understand trying to start registration early might help but its still going to be a mess. You didnt set a number with dean from what I can see. The max number is 75 not 48. People came to play in the team event and to say that they cant play because there is a limit that was not made a head a time is just not fair. People took there time and money to play the event. I understand why you want to do it this way but its just not fair and will cause a bigger mess than trying to not limit the numbers.

Again Early Registration might help but odds are there will be a few teams that are out of money and cant play because of this rule. I planned what I want to do way a head of time like 3 months ago. No I might not be able to play in the event. I just dont think its overall fair to pull something like this at the last min.Yes its the last min in my eyes.

Another note legally can you do this since the number was set at 75 not 48?


Last edited by jonnyb815 on Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:43 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: GenCon Team Tournament Floor Rules V2.0
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:16 pm 
Jedi Battlemaster
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awesome, I am looking forward to playing.

How will the semi-final pool work? Will all teams play each other, then the top 2 place off again for the championship, or will it be the 4 teams play in a swiss-style playoff {1st v 4th & 2nd v 3rd}?

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 Post subject: Re: GenCon Team Tournament Floor Rules V2.0
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 2:04 pm 
Master of the Order
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I sort of understand the idea for the change, but if you want to do a cut to top 4, then why not just do Swiss Rounds, and only do 3 Swiss rounds? Use the new 3/2/0 scoring system. So, if your team won 2 out of it's 3 games, and scored a full win in one and a time win in the other, you'd get 5 points. That should give you pretty decent separation at the top end of things after 3 rounds.

The other thing to think about....did we have more than 48 players last year? EVERYONE had a blast with the Team Event, so I would honestly expect it to be as big, if not bigger than the event was last year. So, if we had more than 48 (i don't remember), then I would tend to agree that it's not really fair to declare a cap on the event at this point, especially since, as Johnny pointed out, GenCon will gladly sell more tickets than that for it.

Why not just use the 4-round Swiss as we did last year? I understand you're trying to do something a bit different, and sounds like fun, but you might be making things too complicated, IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: GenCon Team Tournament Floor Rules V2.0
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 2:09 pm 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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we had 60 people(20 teams and there were a lot of drops in round 2 and 3 from what I remember) .


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 Post subject: Re: GenCon Team Tournament Floor Rules V2.0
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:53 pm 
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I don't like the idea to cap the event at 16 teams (less than last year). I personally didn't sign up for it because I didn't have a team ready for pre-reg however I may play depending on who I meet up with and if someone needs an extra player. Sounds cool to try a different format but limiting at this stage seems unfair to those who didn't have the $$$ or team to pre-reg but still planned on playing in it.

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 Post subject: Re: GenCon Team Tournament Floor Rules V2.0
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:27 pm 
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So how long is the event going to last? You are saying four hours for pool play and then we have four teams left? Are you planning on running this all night? Im supposed to be helping judge this and im not looking forward to six or seven hours on Friday night before the championship. Sorry to be a pain but I think swiss would work better for everyone.

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 Post subject: Re: GenCon Team Tournament Floor Rules V2.0
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:32 am 
The One True Sith Lord
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guys we really need some communication on this deal.

as of now there is no plan to cap any at gencon period.

This is also the nite before championship and I dont want to push our judges and players to the point we will have people dropping out of fear of missing the championship.

We need to get this set and fixed and pretty quick because I am in the final stages of Chase's wedding at the end of the month.

I am not trying to be rude here but please try to remember I am running the events and any drastic changes to an already existing event needs to be discussed with me at some point.

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 Post subject: Re: GenCon Team Tournament Floor Rules V2.0
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:01 am 
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It just won't be the same without Team Fear to defend. :saber: I miss you all already. :cry:

The whole experience was awesome and Jason runs an excellent event!

Though, I could have done without going to bed at 2AM. That part I won't miss. :P

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 Post subject: Re: GenCon Team Tournament Floor Rules V2.0
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:51 pm 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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any news on whats going to happen with this event?


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 Post subject: Re: GenCon Team Tournament Floor Rules V2.0
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:31 pm 
The One True Sith Lord
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ok I have not heard from Jason yet.

But as the event organizer I need 2 things to happen.

1. No Limit on Teams allowed to play period. We have to make sure this community stays strong and turning away players for any event sounds like a bad idea to me.

2. We cannot go until 2 AM. It cannot happen. Whether this mean pool play is not possible or what I dont care.

I am not going to turn people away at Gencon from playing in an event (Mass Battle is the exception and even then I might be talked into it) We have to be accommodating for our games survival. If this upsets anyone then I am sorry.

The unique rules sound great to me.

So anyways as of now that is the 2 things everyone will know for sure.

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 Post subject: Re: GenCon Team Tournament Floor Rules V2.0
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:10 pm 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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Thanks Dean


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 Post subject: Re: GenCon Team Tournament Floor Rules V2.0
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 7:34 am 
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I have to say I have mixed feelings about the new Unique rules. Mostly because my team isn't that great and I have been planning and having them playtest squads over the last year for this, and now 3-4 weeks out, we change it. Otherwise, I suppose it could be....just ok. The effect it would have on a Rebel/New Rupublic Team build is nice, but I'm not quite as sure about the loss of (figs such as) Lobot for one team. I know that my team always runs themes and last year each of us used Dash Rendar and Clobot in our squad.

Really, though, most of my feelings on it our moot. I won't be able to participate in the team this year after, as some of you know, Bob bailed on us at the last minute for Gencon all together.


Edit: I just ran this by Shawn, and he was of the mindset to simply hope someone wanted to play and didnt have a team (though I would want them to use our theme). However, I also realized that this would make it very very hard for teams to comply with the new Unique rules, especially with some of the commonly used pieces. For example, if I have Shawn and I use Clobot and Lobot in our squads and then we look for another player that night, now not only do we have to look for one person who doesnt have a team, but now also someone who does not use Lobot in his squad...or we have to build a third squad and force him to play ours....???

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 Post subject: Re: GenCon Team Tournament Floor Rules V2.0
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:24 am 
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Well, you have all day Thursday and Friday to try and track down somebody to play with you guys. I'm quite sure you'll be able to find a 3rd teammate. If jedispyder does come for the whole weekend, he's usually up for playing themed squads. Maybe touch base with him (he might be the 3rd person for our room as well).

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 Post subject: Re: GenCon Team Tournament Floor Rules V2.0
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:09 pm 
Unnamed Stormtrooper
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Time is our biggest enemy when it comes to this event. Here is a comparison of time involved during last year's edition:

Start time was scheduled for a 6:00pm start. I was asked by many players to extend the start time to 6:30, because of continuing issues with the final 2 legs of the Jedi Challenge. The event did not begin until 6:45pm, waiting for players to finish their squad lists. The squad lists are the most important piece of equipment when running this event. Not only do opposing teams need to look over the lists, the team's matchups and results are written on the back.

Deciding on "who plays who" and then sitting across from your opponent and setting up for your game takes the most time. On average, it was taking most teams about 10-15 minutes. There were some games that were still setting up when the game clock began. Games lasted for 50 minutes. According to my records, we played 4 rounds of swiss with a final match between the last 2 undefeated teams.

Several times during rounds 3 and 4, teams were not communicating to me that they were dropping out of the event. This forced me to stop all pairings and recalculate them.

Once the final match was finished and prizes for both teams were passed out, it was between 1:30-1:45am. I worked until about 2:30am or so in order to clean up and to set up the chairs and tables for the Championship later on that day. Both Dean and Bill should know this because they came to see me after it was done and we had a long conversation outside before departing for the night at about 3:30am. I think that Dean got to bed by 3:50am, since I was rooming with him. So, back to the issue of time.


50 minute games / 4 rounds = 200 minutes (this doesn't include end of round activations)
Deciding on who to play & set up = 60 minutes
Turning in matchups/creating next round(apx 10 minutes per) = 30 minutes

If we decide to go 4 rounds of swiss, they will not be finished until after 1:00-1:30am. Do we need a final match? If we do, then the 2am time limit enforced by Dean will be exceeded. The idea proposed was an attempt to eliminate the excess time required to perform results/matchups by me.
So, I leave the decision on what to do about this event up to Dean. This will be the last Star Wars Miniatures event that I will run. Gen Con is my fond farewell from this game. I would prefer to say goodbye to all the folks that I have met over the years face to face, than with a final posting on a message board. Dean, thanks again for the opportunity to run this event again this year.


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 Post subject: Re: GenCon Team Tournament Floor Rules V2.0
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 4:53 am 
Sith Apprentice
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Perhaps we need an earlier start time for this. Its just a nightmare to set up. Possibly need more people running it to keep it moving at a good pace.

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 Post subject: Re: GenCon Team Tournament Floor Rules V2.0
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:09 am 
Master of the Order
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Why not just simply run this like all the other events at GenCon?? 4 Rounds of Swiss, and then at the end of it, the top undefeated teams get a certain prize, and then the teams that are 3-1 get something lesser. There should be only 2 teams at 4-0 after 4 rounds. I know last year the prizes were really awesome and required the face-off between the two teams. If that's going to be the case again this year, then perhaps plan to do the team face-off on Saturday evening after the Championships?

I think changing the start time at this point is going to be tough to do. Right now, the 100 point tourney for the Jedi Challenge starts at 3pm, leaving only 5 hours between the start of that and the start of the Team Tournament. I know the 100 point tournies are supposed to go faster, but honestly, SOMEONE always drags them out to the time limits. Plus, the schedule has already been set.

Jason, the key is just going to be in getting things moving QUICK. People need to be signed up BEFORE the 8pm slot. Try to track down team members earlier in the day and get them to fill out their squad sheets. Or even have them fill out the sheets during the first round of gaming. Set a 60 minute time limit for the round, and let that include all of the team's setup time as well. When you announce the pairings, give people like a minute to find their spot at the tables, and then announce that time is starting and they will have 60 minutes. Then you leave it in the team's hands to figure out their matchups quickly, get set-up, etc.

With either the plan you had last year, or this new idea you've proposed, you're looking at 5 rounds of gaming for the last two teams. I kind of like the idea of the cut to top 4 in order to let some people go home to bed a bit earlier.

What if you have 4 divisions, with each one having up to 8 teams. That gives you enough space for 96 players total. Then you do 3 rounds of Swiss, which would allow each division to end up with 1 clear winner after 3 rounds. Take those top 4 teams and run your 2 rounds of single elimination to get a final winner.

If you have less players, you could go with 3 divisions of 8 teams each (72 players total), then the top 4 can be from the 3 undefeated teams, and then a 'wild card' slot for the team with the next team on the list with the best record (should be easy to make a composite of all the scores and see that sort of result). I could probably help put together something for you to use for score keeping that would allow you to do this.

The only trick with this sort of set up is making sure you don't end up with an odd number of teams in two different divisions. So it might be possible that one division would have 8 teams, while the other two only have 6. As with any event, obviously it could be possible to even have something like 8, 7, and 6, so that one division has a bye each round. But that kind of stuff you might have to deal with no matter what system you went with.

So, looking at last year's event, we had what, 21 teams, right? So you could break that down into divisions of 8 teams, 7 teams, and 6 teams. Or you could do 4, 5, 6, and 6, which is honestly not that much different from your original plan.

Honestly, I think this tournament SHOULD run a bit smoother and faster than last year as well, just simply because we've done it once before, so most everybody knows in general how it's going to work. There should be less confusion about how to figure out the matchups and stuff like that too.

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 Post subject: Re: GenCon Team Tournament Floor Rules V2.0
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:49 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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I hear where you're coming from, Jason. It seems like you're caught between a rock and a hard place. I just want to re-emphasize that I and my friends really enjoyed the Team Tourney last year, and that we're looking forward to it again! I think it's in that mindset that Lobo and others are offering their suggestions; we really want to help you make this the best event it can be.

I think there's wisdom in everything that Lobo suggested, but especially in this:
LoboStele wrote:
Set a 60 minute time limit for the round, and let that include all of the team's setup time as well. When you announce the pairings, give people like a minute to find their spot at the tables, and then announce that time is starting and they will have 60 minutes. Then you leave it in the team's hands to figure out their matchups quickly, get set-up, etc.

I think the reason people were taking 10-15 minutes to decide squad matchups last year was because they could; that is, they knew that the round wouldn't start until they had decided their matchups, and therefore they had no need to decide quickly. Take away that perceived (and abused) luxury, and I think/hope you'll find that they choose much more quickly. Part of preparing a team strategy together is knowing ahead of time what are the good matchups and the bad matchups for each of the squads on your team; that way, when you get to the Team Tourney, you only need 2-3 mins to choose your matchups.

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 Post subject: Re: GenCon Team Tournament Floor Rules V2.0
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:53 pm 
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Without a round cap, the more teams you have playing the longer the event is going to take. So announcing there is no player cap is just opening yourself up to stragglers coming in with 90 seconds to spare screaming, "But you promised I could play!"

Regarding mass battle, Dean there has to be a cap on that. It's chaotic with 12 people and this year we are pushing 16.

EDIT: Not saying the team tourney should have a player cap, just pointing out some pros and cons of the issue.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 2:39 pm 
The One True Sith Lord
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well I am more of worrying about making sure everyone is having a good time. So I am not turning people away. Especially from a tourney. I dont see where adding people is going to make the event last longer. If they want to do swiss I am pretty sure that Aaron's 3-2 reporting software would take a team name instead fo a person and we can pair that way.

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