Echo wrote:
It's like when the discussion about GOWK took place, and people in favor of banning him claimed that if we did so we would have a varied, fresh meta. The meta was probably MORE varied than if he had never been banned/changed, but the meta was still not that varied (it was Slow Cannon pretty much all day).
Classic problem. You've identified the problem, but associated it to the wrong cause - which is what has happened repeatedly with tempo control as well.
The meta was better with Slow Cannon in all honesty, it was fairer. I understand that most people don't see the difference, but that's fine. But you also ignored that we were still stuck playing 150pts, and we had a map list that heavily favored it. We were unable/unwilling to tackle both GOWK and the map list at the same time, especially whenever I mentioned the maps, players, including almost all competitive players before Gencon, were much in favor of the open maps - particularly Taris - which I hated from relatively early on - and Dean had little choice but to let it go until the players saw it (unfortunately - Gencon was the only time that would happen).
Further, Slow Cannon is a particular problem when there is nothing to stop slow play. We also knew that ahead of time.
For some reason, some of you think we were wrong on GOWK, but then love how open the meta is now, as if the same people, ideas, and understandings were not present creating both environments. It's like we were morons last year (ignoring all the problems we had to deal with and being unfair to the circumstances of the time), and get 0 credit for the things that have been done this year. Do you all seriously think that without slow play being addressed, and the map list being addressed, and 200 becoming the standard that we would have had any of this??? Lol if you do.
I bring this up because it relates to tempo control as well. There are people who think like Joel characterized (and rightly so in this case) - that they can only play Tempo to win. I disagree with that, and so do a great number of other players - just look carefully at the regional lists. There were plenty of non-tempo squads. Tempo alone isn't the issue. It's one issue, and I agree, V-sets should deal with it. But the claims being made for it are just beyond reasonable.
Swarm control figures (Yoda on Kybuck, Lancer, Arica, AniStap) keep tempo control in check. In a meta where at least 1/2 of the players are convinced that "I must play tempo control to win", then clearly these counter figures are also a premium. That should be obvious. That's what a "meta" game is. But what are we really talking about here? Is Ozzel a particular problem? Not really, so ignore him. Did any of you complain about San Hill prior to Engineer doing well with it? I certainly saw no threads about it. So this is about one figure, and one figure only, Dodonna.
Here's the kicker, Rebels aren't winning any more regionals than other factions. Even if you factor in the NR, it still isn't that significant. Not for the amount they are being played anyways. To say that "tempo control" is the root of all evil just isn't an accurate portrayal of the situation. Let's go back to the GOWK example shall we. The argument against the ban from regional results were that GOWK wasn't winning everything. But ignored were the relatively few players running it at many events, and the quality of the player doing so when it was. When you factored in the amount it was being played, the results started showing a different picture. Here you guys are doing the exact opposite. Even though something like 50% of the field is running tempo control, and that about 50% of the top 4s have had it, that shows it's abusive.... Hardly. That's exactly what you would expect from 50% of the field running it. When GOWK was being run in regionals by 2/16 players, and taking 2/4 top 4s, but losing the final, that clearly showed it wasn't a problem, but now the evidence can be used the other way....
So if I argue that Tempo control isn't the only issue, and it isn't nearly as much of an issue as some of you are claiming, then what else is it you might ask? To me, the lesser factions each face a number of issues, and tempo control is only one of those. But as I mentioned in my response to Joel, some of the factions have no problem with tempo, like Mandos. Movement breakers is equally as much of a problem as tempo for the lesser factions, and perhaps if you all were looking at it, you might realize it's probably stronger. Variety of pieces to choose from makes the combinations limited, which is another major issue. Finally, the biggest problem they tend to have, is the ability to do things as cheaply as the other factions. Most everything that the lesser factions have, is also in the big 5, but cheaper or better.
For example, the R7. many of you thought fringe override was the best solution. Wrong. Guess which faction can now abuse override the best - it's the Republic. How can that be, they don't have Dodonna? Largely because of movement breakers, they can eliminate opposing door control and use their own cheap override to win games, in ways that were not nearly so easy before the R7. So its the combination of factors that make the lesser factions less competitive, never one thing.
Pretending it's all about Tempo control is a political move to try to isolate one cause - but anyone who actually analyzes it, knows better. You are quite clearly wrong if you think tempo is the only, or even primary cause of this. You take away tempo control, and all you do is make high activations more important, and stronger again. I don't find that any less abusive in all honesty. A much better track would be to look at a wider selection of issues with V-sets and continue to work on them over time, not all in one shot solutions, with one set.
...wait, did you quote my post because you think I disagree with any of that? Maybe I didn't explain myself enough, I wrote that at work on my iPhone, so I was trying to keep it relatively short. First off, I 100% agreed with the banning of GOWK. I'm big into the statistics of this game, and understand how insane the numbers were regarding his survivability. I've always been firmly in the pro-ban camp when it came to GOWK. I also understood that the maps were a problem. Hell, you were at the table Wednesday night at GenCon last year when I said that if it weren't for Teth and Taris, I'd probably play NR in the championship.
The point of my post was more or less the same point as your post: removing (or terribly nerfing) tempo control won't outright fix anything. Tempo control on its own isn't the problem. The Override example is perfect; the clamoring for cheap Fringe override existed for a while, because people believed it would balance the factions. And on paper it makes some sense. Rebels and Republic had a big advantage by being the only factions with cheap override. Giving it to everyone didn't balance it, though. Lets say in the first V-set there is a cheap Fringe commander with Dodonna's CE (or, alternatively, Dodonna, San, and Ozzel get banned or nerfed badly). Will OR, Sith, Vong, or Mandos suddenly shoot to the top tier of competitive play? Of course not! Will the gap between them and the other factions close somewhat? I think so. But just like banning GOWK wasn't a magic fix for making the best meta ever, nerfing tempo control isn't a magic fix now. It is an issue, but it's not the only one or the biggest one.
Echo wrote:
And I have faith that the designers know that, too, so hopefully they will be able to do as much as they can with 60 pieces to close that gap.
And the secret 61st piece that can be found in the bottom of Chex cereal boxes (start looking now for the golden ticket).