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 Post subject: Override
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 2:21 pm 
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So at our regional Saturday, we had a debate come up about how Override works at end of turn. Let's say Lobot uses Override on Door A. Then, on the next turn, he moves adjacent to Door A and declares end of turn. Stacking the order of effects, the door he is standing next to opens and then he overrides Door B which he can now see, overridden (open or closed, doesn't matter which).

Is this a legal play?

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 Post subject: Re: Override
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 2:25 pm 
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yes I this was covered about two years ago in a about a 20 page thread on wizards.

The final outcome was the player using the override piece gets to determine the order of the end of turn events'


meaning he can physically (standing next to the door ) open the door and then override the next door in line of sight. The players choice.

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 Post subject: Re: Override
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 2:37 pm 
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Yeah I had to make that same ruling three different times. Glad I got it correct.

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 Post subject: Re: Override
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 2:50 pm 
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dnemiller wrote:
yes I this was covered about two years ago in a about a 20 page thread on wizards.

The final outcome was the player using the override piece gets to determine the order of the end of turn events'


meaning he can physically (standing next to the door ) open the door and then override the next door in line of sight. The players choice.


Well....it's sort of correct.

It depends on whether Lobot Overrided the door open or closed in Dennis' example.

The outcome of the 20 page thread is that the NEW door has to be affected first, and then the Override ends on the door from the previous round, exactly in the order it is stated in the Override ability.

So, in Dennis' example, if Lobot Overrided door A locked closed, then he would not have LOS to the 2nd door until the 1st Override effect has been removed from Door A, which does not happen until AFTER he's declared a new Override.

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 Post subject: Re: Override
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 2:53 pm 
The One True Sith Lord
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so basically you just said the same thing I did.

I kind of assumed Dennis is smart enough not to need a picture drawn for him.

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 Post subject: Re: Override
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 2:54 pm 
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Well thats how override works. So you couldnt go next to door A if it was locked and override Door B open.

FAQ
Q: Can I resolve the new door to Override, and the old door that is losing Override in any order I choose, or even split them up during the end of my turn?

A: No. Override is always resolved all at the same time at the end of the character's turn in the following order: first, select a door within line of sight and immediately apply the selected open or closed state to that door; second, remove Override from the door Override was applied to on the previous turn (if different from the door for the current turn) and change its state to whatever it would be based on adjacent characters.


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 Post subject: Re: Override
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 3:30 pm 
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umm Dennis did not say the door was locked closed. He said it was overridden.

I was assuming he was talking about locked open and not locked closed but you know what. I will just stay out rules questions threads as it has become apparent lately that I know absolutely nothing about this game.

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 Post subject: Re: Override
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 3:38 pm 
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Actually Dean in this case you give me too much credit, lol. I did mean locked closed.

My understanding - and the way we have played it at the store for years and years and years - is that Override effects end at the end of the character's turn, and then you stack the order of active choices. In this case, that would mean that you declare the door check first and THEN use Override. But from what you and Nickname and Aaron are saying here, apparently ending Override (even though it ends at the end of the character's turn no matter what you do) is part of the stack of choices as opposed to a mandatory event.

If I'm understanding correctly, then I guess we've been playing it wrong all this time.

EDIT: Reading Jonny's FAQ paste insert, my immediate thought is, "Lovely, another ruling that runs anathema to the core functionality of the game." Gotta love WotC sometimes, and their ability to make uniform rules decisions!! That was sarcasm, btw for anyone who missed it. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Override
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 3:47 pm 
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well dont feel bad because I have learned I am a moron.

Apparently I have been on the wrong end of the Dodonna thing. Dodonna doesnt make the Rebels/NR any more powerful. The rebels and NR will win no matter what. Oddly that hasnt brought on the decline of his use but just so you know that if you nerf Dodonna the other factions will still lose.

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 Post subject: Re: Override
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 3:50 pm 
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dnemiller wrote:
well dont feel bad because I have learned I am a moron.

Apparently I have been on the wrong end of the Dodonna thing. Dodonna doesnt make the Rebels/NR any more powerful. The rebels and NR will win no matter what. Oddly that hasnt brought on the decline of his use but just so you know that if you nerf Dodonna the other factions will still lose.


Yeah, sadly nerfing Dodonna won't change anything since we're not smart enough to actually, you know, make pieces that give overall improvement to the entire faction. What a disappointment, if only we had figured that out before. :P

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 Post subject: Re: Override
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 3:53 pm 
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The key is, override is one action, there is no stacking to it, and there is no breaking it up. Ending one, and beginning another do not happen at different times, they are one action. In order to use a new override on any door, the figure must have los to that door, regardless if an override is currently in play or not, even their own. When the new one begins, the old one ends.

Now, what you are referring to is that override once in place must be physically ended, and it is mandatory. Failure to do so, is a game rule violation to both players.

Door resolution, is not the same as override, and since it also occurs at the end of turn, it can be used either before or after override, acting players choice. You cannot however, end an override, resolve doors, begin a new override. It's either resolve override then resolve doors, or resolve doors, then resolve override.

It's actually fairly simple when you recognize override is one action. That was what the long thread was about, whether or not it was in fact one action, and whether or not ending it was automatic or not. The results were, one action that could not be broken up, and that it was not automatic, that it had to be actually ended (which means that if you back up, the override player can still use override again - and a player cannot hope his opponent forgets and take away that option).

Hope that clears it up.

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 Post subject: Re: Override
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 3:59 pm 
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billiv15 wrote:
The key is, override is one action, there is no stacking to it, and there is no breaking it up. Ending one, and beginning another do not happen at different times, they are one action.


And therein lies the hang-up. The way I understood it, a player doesn't choose to "end" the effect - it just ends because the turn is over (as stated in the ability). Now, if a player wants to maintain the override, he/she must say so, and if a door was targeted in the previous round, a decision about the use of the ability MUST be declared (even if that means to choose to do nothing new).

Quote:
In order to use a new override on any door, the figure must have los to that door, regardless if an override is currently in play or not, even their own. When the new one begins, the old one ends.

Now, what you are referring to is that override once in place must be physically ended, and it is mandatory. Failure to do so, is a game rule violation to both players.

Door resolution, is not the same as override, and since it also occurs at the end of turn, it can be used either before or after override, acting players choice. You cannot however, end an override, resolve doors, begin a new override. It's either resolve override then resolve doors, or resolve doors, then resolve override.

It's actually fairly simple when you recognize override is one action. That was what the long thread was about, whether or not it was in fact one action, and whether or not ending it was automatic or not. The results were, one action that could not be broken up, and that it was not automatic, that it had to be actually ended (which means that if you back up, the override player can still use override again - and a player cannot hope his opponent forgets and take away that option).

Hope that clears it up.


It does, and I don't recall ever reading that thread or the resulting FAQ explanation before today. It definitely diminishes my view of Lobot in terms of playability and I didn't value him that highly to begin with. Though I will add the alternative viewpoint - the way we have played it - is just as simple to understand, even if it was wrong. It's not the first time I've found out I had learned an ability wrong, lol - and I take comfort in the fact that even Rob Watkins himself has ruled/played pieces incorrectly.

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 Post subject: Re: Override
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 4:33 pm 
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So, from what I read, I got unintentionally screwed?

For those who want the story in my game.
Opponent's R7 had door one locked (playing on Bespin, door leading from back hallway into control room). I based that door with my 2 Nobles, knowing they would be safe for another round. He used the same R7 to lock door 2 (outside door leading to platform), which he did not have LOS to at all until he would have opened up Door 1, locking the 2 Nobles in the room, and destroyed them quickly.
Would it have changed the game, quite possibly. Can I prove that, not really.
Hey, I'm not bitter, because I have made bad rulings before, however, being argued with kind of sucked when I thought I knew what I was talking about.

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 Post subject: Re: Override
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 4:45 pm 
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dnemiller wrote:
umm Dennis did not say the door was locked closed. He said it was overridden.

I was assuming he was talking about locked open and not locked closed but you know what. I will just stay out rules questions threads as it has become apparent lately that I know absolutely nothing about this game.


Sheesh Dean....why you so touchy today?

I only pointed it out because Dennis' initial question wasn't that clear, and I thought that the opposite situation (door Overriden open) was pretty well clear. Plus, I was involved in the 20-page WOTC thread on this one, and I know it's one that people constantly get confused.

I didn't say you were wrong. I just said it depended on some clarification in Dennis' post, and I figured I would point it out, not for your sake, but for any other readers. Honestly, Dean, I assumed you knew that if it was Overriden closed that Lobot could not do the next door, and you had just read Dennis' post the other way around. No need to feel slighted by it. I was just trying to clarify things.

Grand Moff Boris wrote:
And therein lies the hang-up. The way I understood it, a player doesn't choose to "end" the effect - it just ends because the turn is over (as stated in the ability). Now, if a player wants to maintain the override, he/she must say so, and if a door was targeted in the previous round, a decision about the use of the ability MUST be declared (even if that means to choose to do nothing new).


Yeah, that's something important to remember in judging. If someone forgets to declare Override, then technically it should go away altogether as "ending" is the proper effect, regardless of whether a new one is declared. The hang-up is just imply around the fact that it doesn't "end" until the after the new one is started.


@ Ray: Yeah, you got screwed, lol. Sorry bud. Happens now and then.

EDIT: @ Jason (if he reads this thread, or Dennis relays it to him): Don't sweat it. This is one of the toughest rulings to remember that I can think of. Always takes me a few seconds to think about it when it comes up. And yeah, pretty much everybody played it wrong until that WOTC thread, lol.

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 Post subject: Re: Override
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 5:14 pm 
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With the WotC archive restored I thought it would be easy to show Dennis where we'd argued about this exact thing before and thus he should have known, but the good news for Dennis is I couldn't find such a thing in a quick search so he gets to avoid the "DOH!" moment (at least for now! :P)

But I did find something in a big thread about it I didn't recall which seems to indicate that the decision preceded me as NetRep which I didn't recall being the case:

_NickName_
05-14-07, 01:24 AM
We're not voting. :P

Rob/Gary/Guy made a decision about this a long time ago. That decision works perfectly fine and hasn't been problem and never will be a problem as far as I can see. There's no reason to care one way or the other. The ruling has been made.



dnemiller wrote:
well dont feel bad because I have learned I am a moron.

Apparently I have been on the wrong end of the Dodonna thing. Dodonna doesnt make the Rebels/NR any more powerful. The rebels and NR will win no matter what. Oddly that hasnt brought on the decline of his use but just so you know that if you nerf Dodonna the other factions will still lose.


Yawn. Why can't that discussion continue where it started rather than taking a passive-agressive shot at my opinion elsewhere and then stating extrapolations that aren't in any way what I said ...nor would I say them, because they're completely false.

Perhaps a football example would help as we're both fans... say someone asked whether Payton or Freeney sitting out of the game would give the Raiders a better chance to beat the Colts in the Superbowl? The answer is it doesn't matter because first the Raiders can't get to the superbowl for other reasons and second the Colts will probably win anyway even if they did becasue the Raiders have a pile of problems outside of those two players or any single player on the Colts. See? Nowhere in there does anything I've said indicate that Payton/Freeney doesn't make the Colts a better team, nor does it indicate I think that the Colts will win the Superbowl no matter what. But they sure as heck aren't going to be beaten in it by the Raiders.

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 Post subject: Re: Override
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 5:45 pm 
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dvader831 wrote:
Hey, I'm not bitter, because I have made bad rulings before, however, being argued with kind of sucked when I thought I knew what I was talking about.


Problem was everyone in that conversation was sure they were right, lol. You weren't the only one to be "unintentionally screwed" by the ruling, though. I had just made that play myself in a previous game (I think it was against Carl), and Jason ruled the same way as he did in your game. Live and learn.

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 Post subject: Re: Override
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 6:47 pm 
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LOL to Lobo and Nickname....

I am speaking my mind if you want to think I am touchy so be it. You are certainly entitled to your opinion of me or what I say. For the same reason I am entitile to mine and I will say what I wish. If you take that as mean or touchy well oh well because it isnt. It is what it is. I felt like saying what I said.

If you wish to yawn then yawn. If you want to say I am touchy then say I am touchy.

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 Post subject: Re: Override
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 6:57 pm 
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LoboStele wrote:
Yeah, that's something important to remember in judging. If someone forgets to declare Override, then technically it should go away altogether as "ending" is the proper effect, regardless of whether a new one is declared. The hang-up is just imply around the fact that it doesn't "end" until the after the new one is started.


No, that's incorrect.

Forgetting to end an active override results in a game play error, you do not simply end it and move on. You must back up the game and allow the player with override to end it (and if they choose to, engage a new one). Both players are at fault, and both would get a warning in this situation.

It's also not correct to say that it "ends" when the new one is started. Both happen at the same time. What you are referring to is choosing a new override target, which happens before you "engage it" (no better word to use). The moment you engage it though, the old one is in fact gone.

You may well know this, I'm just making sure everyone is clear on it.

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 Post subject: Re: Override
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 7:23 pm 
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Well Ray, Im sorry. It was never my intention to screw you over. It was my understanding that the first door was overrided open and he wanted to lock the other door and keep the same door open. Which I said he could do by ending his turn adjacent to door one to keep it open and also override door two locked.

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 Post subject: Re: Override
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 8:15 pm 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
dvader831 wrote:
Hey, I'm not bitter, because I have made bad rulings before, however, being argued with kind of sucked when I thought I knew what I was talking about.


Problem was everyone in that conversation was sure they were right, lol. You weren't the only one to be "unintentionally screwed" by the ruling, though. I had just made that play myself in a previous game (I think it was against Carl), and Jason ruled the same way as he did in your game. Live and learn.


this is the part I feel the worst about... our conversation with the judge should have been just that... between us and the judge
hindsight and all that... Jason ruled consistantly through the day and in the end his decision was final
would it have made the game diffrent, sure any change in play would have
Ray, in the end, I asked if you and I were "OK" with how the game ended-

I'm still proud to say I got to play a good game with you

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