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 Post subject: How long should a turn take?
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 10:13 pm 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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I was slow played in a tournament. Gambit would of said who won the game but my opponent made a mistake letting me kill his mini giving me the lead. My opponent took 2 or 3 8-15 min turns. We both had two rounds of gambit canceling each out. He had the MTB. I might of been up or down on points but the game was going to come down to Gambit. He he got gambit in the last round and I didnt kill him he won. He had 3 guys left vs my five. We only played five rounds and we both had speed squads. The game was played on Ravaged base he had the outside. I had the inside. The judge said five rounds was good and my opponent did get a slow play warning.

There were other ways I could of won the game. I had a shot with Thrawn but we all didnt think I had it so we didnt even get out the los. I could of got another round of gambit. What I am saying is this should a game come down to gambit when you were slow played or should you be able to play out the whole game if its only going to take a few mins. I was able to win the game. The game was for the semi finals at Chicago.


Last edited by jonnyb815 on Wed May 05, 2010 11:13 am, edited 10 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How long should a turn take?
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 10:20 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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IMO 3 minutes for a turn/activation is too much time, so 8-15 minutes per turn is just ridiculous. That is definitely slow play.


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 Post subject: Re: How long should a turn take?
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 10:23 pm 
Jedi Battlemaster
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Hard to define slow play vs careful play.

I mostly play on vassal these days, so the round inevitably take longer. I assume you're talking about some one playing with a Lancer? Takes a lot of time to count out 24 squares on some maps.

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 Post subject: Re: How long should a turn take?
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 10:27 pm 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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Well I added more info.


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 Post subject: Re: NVM I answered my own question after thinking about
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 11:15 pm 
Sith Apprentice
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I agree that even in the process of having to be careful to count spaces (24 spaces) no more than 2-3 minutes per turn should be used. If the player does not know his squad/maps well enough, he should not make his opponent pay for his/her lack of the ability to think fast and make careful desicions in a timely manner.

I think for the most part, slow play seems to be less than before, but I still think judges should be on top of slow play pretty well. As a judge, in most cases, I would give a quick warning after noticing any one turn that took more than 5 minutes, or any 2 turns that took more than 3 minutes. After that, I would get pretty strict (in a polite way). With it being the semifinals, I would probably talk with the other players who were also playing and find out if they could afford the time. If they had time, I would probably let the game go to finish. If they did not have time, then the slow player would be penalized. Every situation is going to be different though, so it is hard to determine exactly what I would do in every situation.


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 Post subject: Re: How long should a turn take?
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 11:16 am 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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I updated. I edited since I redid the game in my head and some how I should of been up by 3 points even if my oppoent didnt make a mistake at the end. 96 is what i had on the board to 93. Gambit was even. So I could of got another round of gambit or looked at a los shot to not make the game come down to trying to get gambit. I just want to know in the future if a game is going to come down to gambit and the other player was slow played should the game be played out if its only going to take a few mins or just let it be.


Last edited by jonnyb815 on Wed May 05, 2010 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How long should a turn take?
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 11:40 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
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I'm no judge, but from what I've been hearing, shouldn't that be up to the judge's discretion? If a judge has been called over for slow play already in that game, and now the game comes down to gambit, the judge could choose to award another round if that would bring the game to completion. Of course, if you never called the judge you're pretty much stuck. At least, that's how I understand it.

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 Post subject: Re: How long should a turn take?
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 11:48 am 
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8 to 15 minutes? Seriously? I think that after about 6 minutes I would have politely asked my opponent to do something, and at the 8-minute mark called the judge over to ask for more time, and just for me. Depending on the situation, of course, but honestly you are as much at fault for what happened as your opponent. I have been in your situation and learned a similar lesson at that time. For $15 you can bet I'm going to be a bit more of an ass about that sort of stuff than I would in a friendly game, or even one of the regular free tournaments.

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 Post subject: Re: How long should a turn take?
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 11:49 am 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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O the judge watched the whole game.He was able to see my opponent play most of his games the whole tournament. I just dont think its ok to milk the clock and make the game come down to gambit when another round kills things. I played the same oppoent in the fifth round and it came down to who attacked first. The game only took 40 mins that time and the judge watched most of that game too. The judge did fine on his ruling I just wanted to know what others would of done if they were judging.


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 Post subject: Re: How long should a turn take?
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 11:58 am 
Master of the Order
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Here's my thoughts on it. IF the judge was called over at some point during the game, and this must be with at least 15-20 minutes left on the clock, then it might be appropriate for the judge to award an additional round. But it really isn't necessary. 5 Rounds is still decent. It's not ideal, but it isn't horrible, and if your opponent took 8-10 minutes to figure out a move at two different points during the game, that means that you were playing the rest of the game quite quickly.

Now, 8-10 minutes for a move should DEFINITELY get a slow play warning, which it sounds like it did. But since the outcome of the game was not really affected (the slow player still lost), then I don't see the benefit of awarding an extra round. Giving that extra round could potentially allow the slow player to win, and thus would only encourage the slow play.

For instance, Johnny, in my game against Jake in Round 3, we started about 5-10 minutes late, and when it got to the end, he still had his full HP Grievous on the board. Time had been called, but since we started a bit late, and 1 more round might've given me a chance to kill Grievous, we asked for the additional round and Brad awarded it to us. I still didn't manage to kill Grievous, and it really didn't matter that much, it just kept me to only a 2 point win instead of 3. The game was over anyways, and I had clearly won, but because of the time issue, I asked for one chance to finish him off.

In your situation, I really don't see that anything incorrect was done. I assume you are asking about this because you are judging some other event and are just trying to get an idea of how to make these kinds of calls? I wouldn't worry about it too much. Every situation is a tad different and it really comes down to the judge's discretion/judgment. If you're really in doubt, almost all of the players that I personally know would have absolutely no problem with the judge grabbing another semi-neutral player and getting their opinion as well.

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 Post subject: Re: How long should a turn take?
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 12:09 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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I was the judge, and I did award another round after time, which gave Jonny the win. Jonny's memory of the game is flawed. It was clear to me that if I awarded an additional round that Jonny would likely win, given his damage potential and the current set-up on the board.. However, I had given his opponent a slow play warning in the 3rd round, so I felt it was the correct thing to do.

The game wasn't as close as Jonny states. It was roughly a 15-20 point lead by his opponent at the end of the round in which time would have been called (they were the only ones still playing). As it turns out, had his opponent made one move in particular, Jonny would not have had the lead at the end of the round. His opponent however, did not do that, so Jonny won.

Had the game ended the other way, well, that's just how it is sometimes, as I doubt I would have awarded a 6th round (though a 6th round would have definately eliminated all of his opponents figures). Jonny was the only opponent (although others likely could have) who cried "slow play" and I reacted appropriately, giving his opponent a warning. All but one of his opponents wins were 3pt wins, and 2pt win was admittedly unpreventable by both players. The typical procedure in a slow played game (one sided) is to award an additional round, which I did.

Alos, to answer Ruhk, I would (and did, most of the day) determine most of his opponent's play to be "careful" and not intentionally stalling.

In the future, however, Jonny, if you have a problem with one of my rulings, try not to make it so obivious (ie:"it was the Chicago regional") that it was one of my rulings.

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 Post subject: Re: How long should a turn take?
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 12:27 pm 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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well i didnt know that a extra round was added.I know we were over on time so I guess that would be an extra round sorry. I never said I had a problem with the rule brad. It came down to dice and my play not your judging. I rolled a 2 and missed which would of ended the game at four rounds. Didnt get gambit in the second round. I didnt look at the thrawn shot closer.
The problem I had is that both of our squads were speed squad we should of been able to play 7-9 rounds within 40 mins.


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 Post subject: Re: How long should a turn take?
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 12:32 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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Jonny, I told both players that an extra round had been added and gave the reason for it, although, in your defense I was mostly speaking to your opponent as I think you were cleaning up and heading to the finals table.

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 Post subject: Re: How long should a turn take?
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 12:45 pm 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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Sorry Brad you are a great judge. I should of never bought up the game. I should of used an older game to try and ask my question or a fake game.


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 Post subject: Re: How long should a turn take?
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 12:47 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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jonnyb815 wrote:
Sorry Brad you are a great judge. I should of never bought up the game. I should of used an older game to try and ask my question or a fake game.



Well, no worries. I was mostly just concerned about protecting the name of the person whom I gave the Slow Play Warning to.

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 Post subject: Re: How long should a turn take?
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 3:27 pm 
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Fair enough. It doesn't matter who it was anyway. We'll just talk in general.

10+ minutes for a single turn is WAY too slow. 5 should be about the absolute max. As a judge I don't think you can let that happen twice--it's too egregious.

But it's really better to judge round speed. Between you and your opponent you should be finishing entire rounds in under 10 minutes and keep in mind that courtesty demands that about half that time is allotted to your opponent. So you should be making the majority of moves within a few seconds and maybe thinking for a minute or two at the beginning of a round or for one particularly important move.

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 Post subject: Re: How long should a turn take?
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 3:33 pm 
Master of the Order
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For instance, in my Round 5 game against Jake at the Chicago Regionals, he and I both had instances where we took probably 3-4 minutes at least to figure out what move we were going to make. Mine was at the very beginning of Round 2, and his was in Round 3 or 4 (I forget exactly when). However, outside of those two instances, we played everything else at a pretty good pace, and we finished the entire game within the time limit: he wiped me out, lol.

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 Post subject: Re: How long should a turn take?
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 3:47 pm 
Sith Apprentice
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As far as Im concerned if you take 2 or 3 8-15 minute turns your taking way to much time. 5 minutes is plenty for a turn and really should only be that long for complicated situations. If I gave a player two slow play warnings and they continued to play at that pace and I was called over a third time I would probably hand them a game loss.

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 Post subject: Re: How long should a turn take?
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 4:06 pm 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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Dark_Jedi_21 wrote:
As far as Im concerned if you take 2 or 3 8-15 minute turns your taking way to much time. 5 minutes is plenty for a turn and really should only be that long for complicated situations. If I gave a player two slow play warnings and they continued to play at that pace and I was called over a third time I would probably hand them a game loss.


Me too. Although, (didn't see the game in question and only speaking about generalities here), if I saw a player use 8 minutes on one move a second time in a single game, the integrity of the results are highly suspect even with an extra round added at the end. If I had already warned that person earlier in the event, I'd probably escalate it to a game loss.

Remember judges, the extra round is to help in the lesser situations. But if a player slows a game down because it's the only way they can win it's not slow play, it's stalling, and that's a game loss, not an extra round. If I saw a player using an MTB, and taking 8+ minutes to decide a move, I'd be watching real carefully.

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 Post subject: Re: How long should a turn take?
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 4:52 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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Yeah, pretty much the 2nd warning for me would have been a game loss. I really would have hated to have to do that all in one game though.

Thinking about it throughout the day, had his opponent actually made the move that would have kept him the lead at the end of the round, I probably would have awarded Jonny another round. Basically, the move was to use Darth Sidious (CS) to Zap Jonny's Vader SA down to 30 HP then move away taking the AoO down to 10 HP, Jonny would have been forced to move past DAC (80 HP's) and get blastered on the AoO . Considering this was coming from the player who got the slow play warning, I would have had to consider it a stall move, and told Jonny at that point he would get another round.

It may sound like Jonny's opponent had the match in hand (40 HP Sidious and 80 HP DAC) but remember, he was using a Lancer build and never really advanced those two past the 1/3 part of the map.

I'm glad it didn't come down to that though. Considering the two involved it would have been a really tough decision to make.

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