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 Post subject: Re: New Championship Format Idea for 2011 and beyond
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:38 am 
The One True Sith Lord
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well basically what is being discussed in this thread has been discussed for a while even with DCI.

It ibasically doing what most game end up with a closed championship with a friday play in.

That is really what we are talking about here. I dont see it were the 32 seeds are based solely on rankings. I am talking about using ranking for a tie breaker.

I see your point where it seems newer players are knocked out of the loop. But the play in is for that.

It also encourages yearly competitive play. I realize you may not have a huge group. But it would give you incentive to grow one. You might have to share your pieces but hey I have been doing that for years to help broke college age players.

In the end one of the biggest arguments I have heard was why is the Championship open to anyone. Shouldnt they have to earn their spot to be a champion?

The routes to earn that are simple enough. One win a regional. Two play into the Championship the day before.

EDIT:

Lets not forget that is what Regionals are. They are officially Regional Qualifiers for the Championship meaning they prove by winning one you have qualified to play int he championships


Just throwing that out there as it is nothing is going to be done about this year anyways.

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 Post subject: Re: New Championship Format Idea for 2011 and beyond
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:05 pm 
Master of the Order
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Demosthenes wrote:
Now, I have no aspirations of performing well at Regionals or GenCon in the future, but I have a problem with your suggestion, Dean. If I go 3-2, in your system, I would likely get left out for two reasons that are out of my control: 1) I'm relatively new to the game, and thus probably wouldn't have had time to accrue the rankings that some of the more experienced players have gotten over the years, and 2) Outside of our 4-person play-group, we have NO other players down here, so organizing tournaments and getting ranked tournaments done consistently is a problem for us.

Thus, because of where I live, and my relative newness to the game, I'd be left out. I don't think you'd want to send the message to new players who do well at GenCon that they'll be losing out on a spot in the Championships for these reasons which they have little control over.


I think you're forgetting a step here though, Demosthenes. I think what Dean is suggesting (and the way I would want it run as well), as that your ranking in the Friday Swiss would determine whether you get into the Top 32 or not. So, if you finish 3-2, whether you make the top 32 cut would be dependent on your placement on Friday, and would not be dependent on your overall ranking. That would just get you INTO the top 32. Once you are IN the top 32, then your SEEDING would be determined by your Ranking.

Does that make more sense?

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 Post subject: Re: New Championship Format Idea for 2011 and beyond
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:16 pm 
Major Tierce
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I think I would rather see the regional winners get byes in a system like we have now as playing in large last-chance qualifier for the t16 to make it to the champs is too similar in my mind to what we have now (or take the T32 as mentioned before and award the regional winners with byes). This would allow for any number of regionals instead of a hard 16 in some of the other scenarios talked about.

However I like the idea of being able to switch squads from the Fri tourney to the Sat 32 man Elimination tourney.

So in my scenario 90 people show up at gencon 16 or so (regional winners) get 2 rd byes and then T32 make day 2 (elimination rounds). People can then change squads before the elimination rounds start but must play the same squad for all the elimination rds (all 3 on Sat and the final four if they make it)

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 Post subject: Re: New Championship Format Idea for 2011 and beyond
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:03 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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Hmm, the possibility of changing squads midway through the tournament would add an interesting twist: "Do I stick with this squad that I know well, but that everyone else now knows about, or do I play a counter to one of the popular squads over the past few days, or do I now pull out my secret squad, which could take the field by surprise?" Meanwhile, everyone is agonizing over the same meta analysis! That could be cool, and it would also allow for more variety for those who make it that far. Recognize, though, that this change would certainly benefit the more skilled players more than it would benefit the slightly-less-skilled players who happened to make it this far. The lesser-skilled players would've practiced hard and long to learn their 1 squad well, but the greater-skilled players would likely be more able to pick up a different squad with more ease (and also after a more well-informed meta-analysis). All of these are factors which have a very significant bearing on the decision.

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 Post subject: Re: New Championship Format Idea for 2011 and beyond
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 3:17 am 
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LoboStele wrote:
Demosthenes wrote:
Now, I have no aspirations of performing well at Regionals or GenCon in the future, but I have a problem with your suggestion, Dean. If I go 3-2, in your system, I would likely get left out for two reasons that are out of my control: 1) I'm relatively new to the game, and thus probably wouldn't have had time to accrue the rankings that some of the more experienced players have gotten over the years, and 2) Outside of our 4-person play-group, we have NO other players down here, so organizing tournaments and getting ranked tournaments done consistently is a problem for us.

Thus, because of where I live, and my relative newness to the game, I'd be left out. I don't think you'd want to send the message to new players who do well at GenCon that they'll be losing out on a spot in the Championships for these reasons which they have little control over.


I think you're forgetting a step here though, Demosthenes. I think what Dean is suggesting (and the way I would want it run as well), as that your ranking in the Friday Swiss would determine whether you get into the Top 32 or not. So, if you finish 3-2, whether you make the top 32 cut would be dependent on your placement on Friday, and would not be dependent on your overall ranking. That would just get you INTO the top 32. Once you are IN the top 32, then your SEEDING would be determined by your Ranking.

Does that make more sense?


That makes more sense. Thanks for the clarification Lobo.
I was thinking Dean was saying the same thing Demosthenes was thinking. Since the game groups here have just completely scattered I am one of maybe 2 or 3 that might still play if I can find a game so I would be last in rankings over a year unless I get some vassal tourneys. Then I would still be close to last based on number of tournies I might be able to get in on which last year was like 4 or 5.

With your thoughts I can actually have a chance to make the 32 but will just be the number 32 seed if I do make it. :lol:

I don't know if I would be with the change up of squads from Friday to Saturday though it does peek some interest.

I also wouldn't mind seeing the swiss thrown out all together and go to double elimination. But that may be just another headache. Plus it may take way too long. it would work with urbans idea of allowing the regional champs to get a couple bye games before being thrown into the mix.

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 Post subject: Re: New Championship Format Idea for 2011 and beyond
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 9:19 am 
Death Star Designers
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I like the SWCCG format. Day 1 is open swiss, top % go to day 2. Day 2 is composed of the bye winners (regional, state, and other tournament winners) and those from day 1. Day 2 is swiss to determine top 8, which go to day 3. Day 3 is match play, single elim.

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 Post subject: Re: New Championship Format Idea for 2011 and beyond
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 9:55 am 
Death Star Designers
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LoboStele wrote:
dnemiller wrote:
so if you get 10 people at 3-2 go by their DCI/Gamers ranking for seating. That would actuallyl mean your ranking counted for something and would encourage ranked play during the year.



Ooooh, that could be interesting. Take the top 32 players (either based on Regional winners or the Friday Swiss, or a combo of the two), but then do the seeding on Saturday strictly based on your DCI/Gamers ranking. That's not too bad. Could certainly make things interesting, as Dean, you would likely get the #1 seed a lot of times (lol), but it doesn't necessarily mean you'd be facing a horrible player just because they have a low ranking. Take TINT for instance. Excellent player, but very low DCI ranking overall because he just hasn't played that many ranked tournaments over the years.

That could be interesting.



We do also have out new Regional Breakouts, So it could be further refined to your DCI ranking within that Region, so if your In Seattle your only be compared against players in the Endor region. This would allow some areas who may have lighter or new play groups to compete, or not be so heavily weighted against.

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 Post subject: Re: New Championship Format Idea for 2011 and beyond
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 6:47 pm 
Sith Apprentice
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I definately like the idea of giving the winners of the Regionals a bye from Friday's swiss rounds. The competition would be fierce at the local regionals, especially if there was on the line a chance of not only winning a badge to GenCon but also a free pass at the brutal swiss rounds. The seedings of the winners of the Regionals would need some working out, deciding on which one would actually be given the Number 1 overall could be difficult but not impossible.

I like how the Championship can move forward to where the best of the best are playing for it, and I think it needs to be that way (IMO).

One issue that would have to be dealt with is the Regional Champions' team choice. Personally; I side with having those that won a Regional and are planning on attending the Championship and given their 'seeding', that they would have turn in their Championship squad before the first game is played of the five round swiss event on Friday. I think that if they were allowed to create a team based upon the outcome of Friday's swiss rounds it would be too much of an advantage. I think winning a Regional and given a bye on Friday where they are free to move about and see what everyone is playing and how they are playing is quite an awesome reward and honor. Giving them and option to build upon how the bracket is played out...would be too much...IMO of course.


But I definately love the idea of Regional winners getting seeded 1-16 (or however many regionals we have next year).

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 Post subject: Re: New Championship Format Idea for 2011 and beyond
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 5:08 pm 
Death Star Designers
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I really don't think it should be a problem, since if the championship goes to a multi day closed format, I see no issue with allowing squad changes in between days.

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 Post subject: Re: New Championship Format Idea for 2011 and beyond
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 7:50 pm 
Hand of the Sith
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jhc36 i could seed it in about an hour or two if i had info on all of the tournys they played in during the year. i seed high school wrestling tournys all season long.


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 Post subject: Re: New Championship Format Idea for 2011 and beyond
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 8:57 am 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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Seeding isn't as big of a deal as it sounds. You ask each player to submit some basic details (who they beat, DCI rank, previous Gencon/REgional experience and records) and you do it from there. It won't ever be perfect, but you aren't really going for that anyway. Let the Championship judge pick 4 other non-regional winners to go through it together between regionals and gencon (5 people to break any ties).

And as to the changing of squads/maps between friday and sat, I think that would actually add a very nice new element to the competition. A lot of squads do really well in a large swiss tournament, but aren't great for single elim against the top level opponents. This would give people who really want to run their fun gimmick squad (such as last year's double Uggernaught) a great chance at actually competing with it. You run that in swiss, win enough to make the finals, and friday night switch out for a more generally competitive squad for Sat morning. It also prevents people from game planning over night against their specific opponent, as you never know what they might show up with.

Further, it would also allow someone who misread the meta slightly, to make any necessary adjustments. What I mean by this, is sometimes a top level player expects something that really doesn't show up, and so their squad is slightly underpowered. They get through swiss with it anyways, based on Skill alone, and then can adjust for the finals. I really like the idea generally.

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