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 Post subject: Re: Does Yobuck/Lancer need a counter?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:19 am 
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FlyingArrow wrote:
NickName wrote:
(Beyond that, I'm not sure why running a dozen of the same figure is such a popular or desirable litmus test for good gameplay balance. And this is coming from someone who does it quite frequently.)


It's because it's something common in the Star Wars story. Look at the movies... a bunch of stormtroopers and rebel troopers on Tantive IV. A bunch of jawas and tusken raiders on Tatooine. Troopers defending echo base. Stormtroopers on Cloud City. Gamorreans and Nikto grunts as guards for Jabba. Ewoks on Endor. Battle droids versus Gungans. Clones versus droids. Large groups of fighters is a common theme in Star Wars. Why shouldn't they be viable?


This is a fair point but I believe there are 2 different issues here.

There is the Starwarsy feel and there is the competitive game.

If you want to immerse yourself in starwars and get images of the films then use all the great pieces you've collected and run scenarios that cater to that or recreate mass battles.

The competitive game shouldn't really pander to that because the objective is different. The competitive game doesn't really pander that much to scenarios or even squads that you see in the films because if it did then all you would do would be pick a band of hero's that were together in the film and they should be competitive. It takes away from the puzzle that is the competitive game. The puzzle being the current meta, they squad style you want to play and how you adapt it so that you can run it at the competive level. Its more about finding the pieces/SA/FPs you need to fight rather than portraying a particular starwars scene.
The star wars feel is kept because your playing with star wars figs and its lightsabers and blasters but some of the odd pairings you get are a result of the fact you have to go for two characters that contrast each other in the universe (you think Aurra Sing would be seen dead fighting along side Anakin, Obi Wan or Yoda? But it used to happen regulally).

Squad types ebb and flow in the competitive game and whereas figures should be implemented to weaken particular strategies so that the meta stays fresh, adding figures that hard counter one or two pieces is probably the wrong way to go as when you do this, usually that hard counter gets used in more powerful ways that you hadn't forseen by squads that you hadn't invisaged.

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 Post subject: Re: Does Yobuck/Lancer need a counter?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:07 am 
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FlyingArrow wrote:
It's because it's something common in the Star Wars story. Look at the movies... a bunch of stormtroopers and rebel troopers on Tantive IV. A bunch of jawas and tusken raiders on Tatooine. Troopers defending echo base. Stormtroopers on Cloud City. Gamorreans and Nikto grunts as guards for Jabba. Ewoks on Endor. Battle droids versus Gungans. Clones versus droids. Large groups of fighters is a common theme in Star Wars. Why shouldn't they be viable?


Because most of the scenes you quote are slaughters and the designers were trying to stick to that theme? :lol:

Actually, what you're arguing is theme should be pretty competetive. I disagree. Theme building is fun and I do it all the time, but it doesn't need to compete well, and it extra doesn't need to compete well if you do it with bad figures with no consideration for their weaknesses or counters especially if you hit the counter. If you do take into account those weaknesses, you'll have less theme but a more competetive build just as Bill showed in his example which completely met your definition of "8+ low cost charcters" before you found some other unrelated way to disregard it.

Non-swarms have the exact same problem if you build around bad characters with no consideration for their weaknesses then hit the counter. It's nothing specific to swarms. Build a theme Revan melee squad and see how it does against a solid anti-melee counter.


What's the point of having an expensive counter in the game if there's a universal cheap counter-counter that's a no-brainer to include in any threatened squad? The game does not need more no-brainer's like DOOMBOT or Dodonna. It needs more creative, subtle solutions like Zuckuss BH.

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 Post subject: Re: Does Yobuck/Lancer need a counter?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:10 am 
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It amuses me when people turn it into a "meta vs. non-meta" argument, as though there is no distinction, or that the person who made the distinction is somehow an "elitist jerk."

If you're not talking about DCI rules of the game (note I did NOT say "competitive"), then this discussion is moot. You ask your friends not to use a swarm-hate fig. You acknowledge that against such a piece the squad you want to have FUN with cannot win. And then you embrace the fact that you are probably going to lose anyway. Asking the question, "should figure X have not been made?" is pointless. It WAS made, and that's that. If you don't want to deal with it all the time, then you make a standing gentleman's agreement on the subject. Anyone who argues with you about it doesn't want to play the game to have fun, they just want to win, and most of the time people like that burn out and quit playing the game anyway (and usually aren't fun to play with in the first place).

And if you are talking about the DCI rules of the game, then everything that Bill and Tanner have said is correct. Swarm squads were never really viable beyond their first demonstration. Like all weak squads, players learn how to beat them and move on. They are hated out of the game not because of their counters but because of their weaknesses against the rest of the field.

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 Post subject: Re: Does Yobuck/Lancer need a counter?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:22 am 
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well I think the designers will come up with overall counters like vader SOTJ,Zuckuss they are good vs lancer and yodabuck but they are overall good vs other things too. So I dont think Swarms will ever be able to be top tier but I think maybe the mini swarms can be like my gungans and my wookiee squads. Jason went 5-2 with 181 pilots last year so I think you can run mini swarms less then 10 of the same and win before Gen Skywalker. Yes I think Gen Skywalker is what has made mini swarms not playable in DCI play. Gen Skywalker just gave yodabuck and others the extra damage they needed to kill the 40,50 hp guys. My gungans were dead vs yodabuck last year but if i went up again a lancer I had 2 cestas and if he failed one and the act save I was good vs the lancer. Yeah it was like 30% goign to happen but I had to get him to fail two saves in a row and I was good. I am still not understanding why people want Ewoks to be able to win games at Gencon regionals.

I would like the designers to come up with some new mini swarm guys like the gungans,Wookiees,Blood Cravers,Some of the troopers that have 30 or more hps. People couldnt play 10+ of the same guy but they could play there mini swarms.


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 Post subject: Re: Does Yobuck/Lancer need a counter?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:34 pm 
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I agree with jonny for most of this *shudder*, but I send one warning, part of a game is that it still has to be fun, and not just fun for competitive play.

Sometimes balance gets sacrificed in the name of fun (see Jund in the current Magic meta).


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 Post subject: Re: Does Yobuck/Lancer need a counter?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:24 pm 
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Casual play can and should always be fun. And if it is casual play, for fun, then IMO this whole arguement is irrelevant. I cannot see how this is anything but a competitive/meta discussion. And if it is a meta/competitive discussion, then I don't see anything wrong with how it is right now. I could just reiterate what has been said before (that Yobuck and Lancer brought melee back, swarms were never top-tier), and it looks like I just did. Trooper squads, IMO, were never very viable outside of casual play and scenarios (and not really viable there either).

As for direct counter powers to these powers; I think that is a slippery slope. If we see more characters along the lines of Yobuck and Lancer, then possibly. But until Yobuck and Lancer are completely dominating the meta, don't change anything just yet. Some new SAs would be pretty cool, but don't make them just to affect, really just two (maybe three) characters.


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 Post subject: Re: Does Yobuck/Lancer need a counter?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 5:21 pm 
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NickName wrote:
Actually, what you're arguing is theme should be pretty competetive. I disagree. Theme building is fun and I do it all the time, but it doesn't need to compete well, and it extra doesn't need to compete well if you do it with bad figures with no consideration for their weaknesses or counters especially if you hit the counter.


This comes up all the time in SWCCG discussions. There was literally a 50-page argument over whether it "made sense" for Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Knight(v) to be able to tank various Darth Vaders and Darth Mauls one-on-one. The design committee's response to the "this doesn't feel like Star Wars" argument is basically what you and Deri said - this is the CCG, not the movie, so cope. Part of the CCG "culture" now is to respond to a particularly ridiculous game situation (For example Luke and Obi-Wan co-piloting the Radiant VII together while they blow up the Death Star - one particular deck is designed to do exactly that!) by calling out "Just like in the movies!" At the end of the day, the game comes first. It has to be fun, it has to be balanced. Being just like the movies comes way way behind that.

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Tactical Adjustments: Whenever an ally is defeated, if this character is not activated you may consider this character activated. If you do, enemies may not attack any other characters this turn.

Put that on a 15-point piece without much offense and you have to devote another 15-points of tech in the build, and then an activation to stop a Yobuck or (or big GMA) assault. A hefty price to pay, but it keeps your squad from being cut in half in one activation. Also, it doesn't glue Yobuck, so he can run away and try again next round. It just means he has to do his hit-and-run attacks one piece at a time.


I think that is a very interesting piece, and not just for anti-gallop/strafe. It also counters double+twin attackers, which is nice, and can put your opponent in some nasty situations with, say, Jarael or KKJBM. Plus, you can laugh when your opponent kills an ugnaught with A&E Leia and you spin this guy - no CE for you, lady! That's the sort of piece that comes in handy in all kinds of matchups, and helps counter many of the most powerful pieces in the game.

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 Post subject: Re: Does Yobuck/Lancer need a counter?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 5:34 pm 
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I've always found the best counter for yobuck is fighting him 1 on 1 make him eat some aoo's from your guys if he wants to get to the juicy part of your squad. He dies fairly easy to shooters once he has some damage on him.

As for lancer a kel dor Bh works great. And for crying out loud the thing has 50 hp. Run a jawa and a kel dor then your set.

Generally Practice makes perfect if your having trouble beating a certain combo just keep playing till you figure out how to play against it. I think that there is no reason to make a gallop/strafe counter casue we basicly already have them.

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 Post subject: Re: Does Yobuck/Lancer need a counter?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 5:36 pm 
The One True Sith Lord
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see this funny to me because I though Rob killed trooper/ low hit point swarms the day he made the rakghoul.

The lancer and Yobuck maybe a problem but really the Rakghoul was doing the same thing in just a slower manner.

i remember the day at my LGS when I ended the game with 14 Rakghouls on the board and the rest of my mando squad had not moved since round 1.

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 Post subject: Re: Does Yobuck/Lancer need a counter?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 5:57 pm 
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dnemiller wrote:
see this funny to me because I though Rob killed trooper/ low hit point swarms the day he made the rakghoul.

The lancer and Yobuck maybe a problem but really the Rakghoul was doing the same thing in just a slower manner.

i remember the day at my LGS when I ended the game with 14 Rakghouls on the board and the rest of my mando squad had not moved since round 1.


I agree to a point here Dean. THe rakghoul was definetly a great antiswarm piece, but it has low attack and costs 3 to 1 whata stormtrooper does and 5 to 1 for an uggie, the standard victim for rakghouls at my flgs. But becasue it did it slower gave the opposing swarm a chance to do some damage in responce, not the same with the lancer and Yobuck. The lancer though is the worst offender due to the abilty to do 80 damage (no crits) in 1 phase with support from DAC and Sidious. Yobuck can't do that without criticals on everyone, and the lancer generally needs less then 5's to hit most fig's on the trip.

But do we need a counter? I think the final shot CE's we have from Plo and Mothma are the counters, they just are not utilized enough. However the figs using them do not have the attack score to consistently hit the amped up lancer droid with few exceptions.

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 Post subject: Re: Does Yobuck/Lancer need a counter?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:04 pm 
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but point being swarms were dead long before their arrival on the gaming scene.

Djem so and riposte seem to be the best counters to lancer. At this point if you think you are going to face a lancer int he regionals i would suggest you be playing a djem so piece.

I know with scourge of the jedi, vader is practically autokills a lancer. So the lancer player has that to contend with. I think Lancer are less of the problem right now than yobuck. Yobuck in the right hands is just painful to get thru.

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 Post subject: Re: Does Yobuck/Lancer need a counter?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:17 pm 
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dnemiller wrote:
I know with scourge of the jedi, vader is practically autokills a lancer. So the lancer player has that to contend with.

How is he an autokill? He sas Djem So and Riposte, but that leaves the Lancer with 10 out of 50 hit points left, doesn't it?

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 Post subject: Re: Does Yobuck/Lancer need a counter?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:18 pm 
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dnemiller wrote:
but point being swarms were dead long before their arrival on the gaming scene.

Djem so and riposte seem to be the best counters to lancer. At this point if you think you are going to face a lancer int he regionals i would suggest you be playing a djem so piece.

I know with scourge of the jedi, vader is practically autokills a lancer. So the lancer player has that to contend with. I think Lancer are less of the problem right now than yobuck. Yobuck in the right hands is just painful to get thru.


Those work well against Yobuck as well. Flight is another added advantage for the lancer that Yobuck does not have it ignores key AoE's, of course Yobuck has the Hp to deal with a few AoE's the lancer does not.

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 Post subject: Re: Does Yobuck/Lancer need a counter?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:23 pm 
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Dendrite wrote:
dnemiller wrote:
I know with scourge of the jedi, vader is practically autokills a lancer. So the lancer player has that to contend with.

How is he an autokill? He sas Djem So and Riposte, but that leaves the Lancer with 10 out of 50 hit points left, doesn't it?


well this depends on a coupel of things but let me see.

If you pawn the lancer.

I make djem number 1 and attack hit for 20

I make djem so number 2 and attack hit for 20 then riposte for 20 --- dead lancer --- dependant on the rolls of course but hey the whole game is and would you want to risk it?

if you dont pawn the lancer.


i make djem so number 1 and attack and hit for 30 then immeidately riposte for another 30 good bye lancer.

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 Post subject: Re: Does Yobuck/Lancer need a counter?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 8:23 pm 
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dnemiller wrote:
Dendrite wrote:
dnemiller wrote:
I know with scourge of the jedi, vader is practically autokills a lancer. So the lancer player has that to contend with.

How is he an autokill? He sas Djem So and Riposte, but that leaves the Lancer with 10 out of 50 hit points left, doesn't it?


well this depends on a coupel of things but let me see.

If you pawn the lancer.

I make djem number 1 and attack hit for 20

I make djem so number 2 and attack hit for 20 then riposte for 20 --- dead lancer --- dependant on the rolls of course but hey the whole game is and would you want to risk it?

if you dont pawn the lancer.


i make djem so number 1 and attack and hit for 30 then immeidately riposte for another 30 good bye lancer.


On the 30 are you assuming the use of Mitthrawnurdowhatever? It is what it looks like.

And if it's on a pawn you only need to do 40, so yeah scourge can mess with the lancer bad

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 Post subject: Re: Does Yobuck/Lancer need a counter?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:51 am 
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Dendrite wrote:
dnemiller wrote:
I know with scourge of the jedi, vader is practically autokills a lancer. So the lancer player has that to contend with.

How is he an autokill? He sas Djem So and Riposte, but that leaves the Lancer with 10 out of 50 hit points left, doesn't it?


Vader will have opportunist in a competitive squad. If we are assuming a well built competitive lancer squad, you must also assume a well build competitive Imperial squad.

Darth Vader Sith Apprentice is just as good of a counter as Vader Scourge as well, and he will be seen in regionals. Reposte, djem so, opportunist make him a yoda and lancer killer. The Lancer player has to figure out how to strafe without strafing Vader in the early game, or it's over. Yoda can't afford to take more than one AoO from either Vader, especially if the Imperial squads are well built. And he certainly can't afford to attack either Vader early. So a lot of those games come down to the skill of the two players. Can the yoda/lancer player out maneuver the Imperial player and get around Vader? Can the Imperial player use his advantage to force the "bad" moves? Certainly it's not an auto-win either way, but comes down to who is the better player or who makes less mistakes.

One thing important to remember. The Lancer must attack every mini it flies over if it's using strafe. Yoda can choose not to attack Vader/Kel Dors. This is what makes flight not that big of a deal. Force them to strafe a Kel Dor and Vader, and it's game over Lancer (or the lancer is doing nothing, which means you can catch it and kill it in the following round - either way it's a win if you play it right). Now, a smart lancer player, will try to use pawn to move over Vader/Kel Dor without using strafe (maybe even landing next to something else and twin attacking with regular attack if possible) and then strafe back out some other direction, but if the Imperial player plays it smart, they can deal with this pretty well also - but it generally doesn't happen unless you are talking top level players. Just ask Jonny about it :)

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 Post subject: Re: Does Yobuck/Lancer need a counter?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:07 am 
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I get it now. Thanks for clarifying!

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 Post subject: Re: Does Yobuck/Lancer need a counter?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:22 am 
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there are also some spots on maps you can use to your advantage. jedi temple on the top has a one square spot thats on cover you can put you rex/dash on there and pop out and shoot then go back on and you cant get strafed. Bespin has a one square closet that you can use, rancor pit has a few spots where you wont get strafed as well.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:21 pm 
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Yeah Jonny know all too well about that (sorry Jonny).

First off no we do not need a direct counter for strafe/gallop.

Lancer really struggles against a well-built/run squad with either of the Riposte/Djem-so Vader's as you really cannot strafe them early because the chance of failing both Djem-so rolls is unlikely and you get the free riposte. It is also almost impossible to beat a well-built GM Luke squad as he has 3 chances to roll the djem-so and needs "not 1s" to kill the lancer. Shaak-Ti Jedi Master and Shado Vau are also difficult with the MOTF 2 and the Riposte (also not needing a whole lot to kill the lancer if it was pawned.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:59 pm 
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Draay and Anakin CON are others. Yes dont tell your opponent what your doing and dont do it. I a am going to lock a door noooo I dont need to do that because thats a smart move lets just move a uggie. Yeah thats the better move. O well I have learned I think. I played the cad squad Jason with Rex 501 and Vader it plays a lot better but I need to work on adding override so I can talk myself out of using it vs you.


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