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 Post subject: Re: Restricted List is going to change give us your input here!!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:50 am 
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Mapmaker wrote:
However, I would urge you folks to consider having a new official map list ready to announce *at* Gen Con, if not before. For that matter, I would encourage you to have a printed list of the new official map lists (for Open, Standard, and Restricted) ready to hand out on day 1 as fliers to participants at Gen Con.

The reason for this is simple: JC and I will both be at the convention (I know I will, and I think JC has committed to it as well--correct me if I'm wrong, Matt!) with our maps available for purchase.


This is a great point I hadn't considered. At a minimum, we ought to be able to announce which maps will make the standard list. Which will make the restricted I think takes more time and effort than we are prepared to do. But I can definately see an advantage to at least having some suggestions ready to go, especially to help the two of you with sales at Gencon, and for players attending to make sure they have what they want/need going forward. Good suggestion.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:43 am 
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For the Jedi Challege since its uses the standard maps should we think about leting a few of Mapmakers/JC on the list? I can understand not using any of the maps for the restricted but using hoth in 08 wasnt that big a deal with people not having or not knowing the map. I think its at least something to think about. JC did MP2 sell well you might want to have some more at Gencon in case for when we make them legal for the standard list if its not till after Gencon?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 11:06 am 
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jonnyb815 wrote:
For the Jedi Challege since its uses the standard maps should we think about leting a few of Mapmakers/JC on the list? I can understand not using any of the maps for the restricted but using hoth in 08 wasnt that big a deal with people not having or not knowing the map. I think its at least something to think about. JC did MP2 sell well you might want to have some more at Gencon in case for when we make them legal for the standard list if its not till after Gencon?


Thats a really good idea.

As far as Map pack 2, I still have alot left. I also half e disgusting amount of the Ughnaught mines left. Map Pack 3(MEM) we have alot left of as well, we actually have a stash we've set aside for Gencon.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 11:17 am 
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Mapmaker wrote:
Plus, frankly, it gives players a huge boost in confidence that their game will continue into 2011. Having the new official map lists charted out in advance tells people that the folks keeping Organized Play going are on the ball, working out future issues well in advance of the next season. It gives people something concrete to look forward to, and new official products to invest in at the show. Without any new miniatures released at the convention, our maps will be the only new "official" content that SWM players will be able to purchase at Gen Con. Like, ever...

I think this is a very good point. As has been said before, Gencon 2010 will in many ways make or break the future of SWM; if it is a smashing success, that will give people a lot of confidence for the future...but if it's a flop, then people will likely start to drift away. And part of giving people confidence and being on-the-ball at Gencon is being ready with worthwhile information regarding significant future changes and updates...this will also be the best time to disseminate the news of those changes, especially to those who don't spend a lot of time keeping up with events on the forums.

In that regard (though a little off-topic), part of that building of forward momentum might include--if possible--a preview or two, or a set-list from the upcoming V-set. Something concrete, so that it helps to build excitement and further boost confidence in the forward momentum of the game. Both this and the updated maplists are part of the one goal of increasing confidence and building momentum for the future of the game.

Mapmaker wrote:
For that reason, I would also encourage you to make sure the restricted list includes a map from each of JC's, and my own, currently-available products. It shouldn't be hard to find a map from each that lives up to strict competitive expectations (since we've both made that a priority for some time), and it will help us both stay in business.

If you can also include on that list a map from whatever new releases we each have planned at the show, all the better (for both of us, and for the game moving forward...). I'll be happy to provide an early review for those making this decision once my plans get that far, and I understand that JC already is showing off his in-progress work to some of you. I haven't seen any of it myself, but I trust that it's good stuff.

There's my two credits. :)

I can see where you're coming from, and it makes sense. In order for you to continue producing maps you need to sell what you've already produced. And for what it's worth, I've bought every single product you and JC have made (and I love 'em all!).

However, with that being said, I think it needs to also be said that maps should not be added to the Restricted via some version of Affirmative Action [hides under chair as the politically-loaded word settles on peopel's ears]. That is, the maps on the Restricted list should be chosen simply and solely based on their viability for competitive play, regardless of their source. Including a map just to make sure that a certain product is supported is not smart for the game, IMHO.

But having said that, I don't imagine it will be much of a problem either. As I look at the maps being discussed earlier in this thread, it’s interesting to note in hindsight that there’s a map from each of your releases (Swamp Caves and Offworld) as well as from 2 separate releases by JC. Furthermore, as you said, both you and JC have been aiming at competitive play for quite a while now, so it’s very likely that at least a few of the maps from your future releases will be prime candidates for making the Restricted list too. I’ll say it even more boldly: the maps from your (MM’s and JC’s) most recent offerings are some of the best SWM maps ever produced! So I don’t think you have anything to worry about. I’m just saying that we can’t be putting the cart before the horse.

Going forward, perhaps one of the best ways to ensure that your maps are part of the Restricted maplist is for you to continue to do what you did with the Swamp Caves map over at Wizo’s forums: you fielded constructed criticism about your nearly-finished product and then made some appropriate adjustments, with the result that Swamp Caves is (IMHO) one of the 2 or 3 best maps we’ve ever seen.

Restricted maplist or not, I know I will continue to buy all the products that you and JC put out. I’ve never been disappointed yet!

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 Post subject: Re: Restricted List is going to change give us your input here!!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 11:25 am 
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Mapmaker wrote:
Sorry I didn't notice this thread sooner; I really should make a habit of browsing more sections of these forums on a regular basis. :)


The 'View New Posts' button on the top right corner is your friend. :)

Something I was thinking about, and Chris sort of hit on it here....

What if we keep the Restricted Map List to only these 6 maps for right now, but open up the Standard List to include the Custom maps, as of June 1st? That would allow the Jedi Challenge, Sealed, etc. type tournies at GenCon to be run with some of JC/Mapmaker/AG7's maps based on what is decided to add to the list, but the Championship would stay with the 6 WOTC maps.

I think this would accomplish both things. It would introduce the new maps to the playing field, but not impact the Championship. It would give some visibility of the new maps at GenCon, where as Chris pointed out, other players could go buy whatever map(s) they are interested in before the next tournament that weekend.

I think this could be a really good solution overall, and kind of pleases both crowds/best of both worlds scenario.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 11:29 am 
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After looking at all the maps the only map I am really liking is the Theed Map from JC other than that I am just not seeing any other great restricted maps.

Lobo should I start a thread with thumbnails of all the custom maps yes the holo has most but it might be a good idea to have them in one place so people can look at them and talk about them or we can just add the pictures to this thread. I pmed JC for thumbnails.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 11:37 am 
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LoboStele wrote:
Mapmaker wrote:
Sorry I didn't notice this thread sooner; I really should make a habit of browsing more sections of these forums on a regular basis. :)


The 'View New Posts' button on the top right corner is your friend. :)

Something I was thinking about, and Chris sort of hit on it here....

What if we keep the Restricted Map List to only these 6 maps for right now, but open up the Standard List to include the Custom maps, as of June 1st? That would allow the Jedi Challenge, Sealed, etc. type tournies at GenCon to be run with some of JC/Mapmaker/AG7's maps based on what is decided to add to the list, but the Championship would stay with the 6 WOTC maps.

I think this would accomplish both things. It would introduce the new maps to the playing field, but not impact the Championship. It would give some visibility of the new maps at GenCon, where as Chris pointed out, other players could go buy whatever map(s) they are interested in before the next tournament that weekend.

I think this could be a really good solution overall, and kind of pleases both crowds/best of both worlds scenario.

I really like this idea. Having different maps in the Jedi Challenge than in the Champs would also serve to help give more variety to those two tourneys, and that's always a good thing.

Furthermore, using some of those maps during the decently-competitive Jedi Challenge would also serve as a great testing-ground for some of the Restricted maplist candidates. Obviously more testing will likely need to be done, but this would be a good start, and it would also allow the community to have an immediate and direct voice about the viability of certain maps for the Restricted list.

I know that if we do go this route, I'll personally be choosing only fan-made maps for each of the 3 parts of the Jedi Challenge.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 11:49 am 
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jonnyb815 wrote:
After looking at all the maps the only map I am really liking is the Theed Map from JC other than that I am just not seeing any other great restricted maps.

Lobo should I start a thread with thumbnails of all the custom maps yes the holo has most but it might be a good idea to have them in one place so people can look at them and talk about them or we can just add the pictures to this thread. I pmed JC for thumbnails.


No, Johnny. We already have threads set up in the Archives that can be used for that. If you get the thumbnails, send them my way, and we can update those Map threads.


Something else we might consider, to keep the community involved. If we allow the custom maps to be added to the Standard List, then we could maybe have a voting form that players could fill out at the end of each tournament, and they could place votes for which maps they might like to see on the Restricted List. Obviously, this wouldn't be a hard-and-fast decision process, as there would be an element of favoritism/popularity contest, but it might be a way to get more of the community involved, and help people feel like they can be a part of the process.

I can put together a form that could be printed in mass quantities for people to vote on if we're interested in that, once we have the thumbnail images Johnny mentioned above.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:33 pm 
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Let me reiterate, if Theed is put in the restricted list, I really want to upgrade the Art. :)

I wonder if we should make public the stuff we've been working on. Maybe keeping it a secret isn't whats best for the game right now.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:58 pm 
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Jedicartographer wrote:
Let me reiterate, if Theed is put in the restricted list, I really want to upgrade the Art. :)

I wonder if we should make public the stuff we've been working on. Maybe keeping it a secret isn't whats best for the game right now.


Well, if the art were to get upgraded, then I guess it would be re-released so the have-nots (like me :P ) could get their hands on it easily. :D

Sorry for the interruption - back to the bush I go :Ewok:

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:04 pm 
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swinefeld wrote:
Jedicartographer wrote:
Let me reiterate, if Theed is put in the restricted list, I really want to upgrade the Art. :)

I wonder if we should make public the stuff we've been working on. Maybe keeping it a secret isn't whats best for the game right now.


Well, if the art were to get upgraded, then I guess it would be re-released so the have-nots (like me :P ) could get their hands on it easily. :D

Sorry for the interruption - back to the bush I go :Ewok:


I would sell all the extra ughnaught mines maps, take the money from that and print up 500 Theed maps.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:18 pm 
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Jedicartographer wrote:
I would sell all the extra ughnaught mines maps, take the money from that and print up 500 Theed maps.


Hey, there's a fine idea!
I'm sure folks will buy those up if you put out the word, especially now that there is no new WotC stuff and all...
Interest was definitely sparked in our local group when a buddy and I brought our MP2s to a casual tournament a while back. Excellent stuff, all of it.

And oddly, I got an extra of one of the MEM maps in my set from MM. :D

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:38 pm 
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swinefeld wrote:
And oddly, I got an extra of one of the MEM maps in my set from MM. :D

Hmm. I'm fairly certain my copy of JC's Mos Eisley Meltdown maps are all accounted for; I recently sorted them out for use in my last Saga Edition RPG, and none were missing. You didn't get any from me.

Oh, wait, you meant Miniatures Market, not Mapmaker. Sorry, when I see "MM" and "JC" in the same message, I make assumptions. I should probably delete this post to hide my momentary ignorance, but in retrospect I find my error amusing... :)

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:59 pm 
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Mapmaker wrote:
Hmm. I'm fairly certain my copy of JC's Mos Eisley Meltdown maps are all accounted for; I recently sorted them out for use in my last Saga Edition RPG, and none were missing. You didn't get any from me.

Oh, wait, you meant Miniatures Market, not Mapmaker. Sorry, when I see "MM" and "JC" in the same message, I make assumptions. I should probably delete this post to hide my momentary ignorance, but in retrospect I find my error amusing... :)


And my quoting it will make sure it stays in tact, regardless of what you decide to do in the future!

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:01 pm 
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dvader831 wrote:
Mapmaker wrote:
Hmm. I'm fairly certain my copy of JC's Mos Eisley Meltdown maps are all accounted for; I recently sorted them out for use in my last Saga Edition RPG, and none were missing. You didn't get any from me.

Oh, wait, you meant Miniatures Market, not Mapmaker. Sorry, when I see "MM" and "JC" in the same message, I make assumptions. I should probably delete this post to hide my momentary ignorance, but in retrospect I find my error amusing... :)


And my quoting it will make sure it stays in tact, regardless of what you decide to do in the future!


Lol. Yeah, wrong thread to use an abbreviation for MiniMarket :P

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 9:25 pm 
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I have been a proponent of MM's (Yes, I'm talking about you here Chris lol) and JC's maps being legalized as soon as possible until I read through everything in this thread. My reasoning was that surely we could find competitive maps from their recent products to include, and I felt that it was important to start rewarding them for their tireless efforts to give the community quality maps. I really think the ideas of legalizing fan maps for the Jedi Challenge and Sealed events but leaving the restricted list alone makes a lot of sense. Chris's suggestion of an announcement at GenCon to make additions to the restricted list is an excellent one.

I am wondering how we can best glean player input about maps (or anything else) at GenCon without creating anymore work for those already working their butts off. Would there be a problem if people wrote suggestions on the backs of the sheets we turn in at the completion of each game? They could be saved and reviewed after GenCon. It would be immediate input if someone deems that of any value.

I'd just like to encourage everyone coming to GenCon this year to put their money where their mouth is and support our two map creators and make their GenCon experience fun AND profitable. Chris said he had a lot of support from the community last year...let's do that again.

Back on topic here...I didn't include one of my favorite maps...The Exodus Class Ship...not because of the open gambit, but rather that I think door control can really be exploited down the sides. Of course, because it IS one of my favorites and I typically utilize door control, I won't complain one bit. I was just trying to be objective like Dean's original directive was asking.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:31 am 
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Well since this year I won't be able to make it I have very little to ad to the conversation. I'm with not making any custom maps part of the restricted list this year for many of the same reasons mentioned above. Mainly the availability. Next year I see no problem especially if they become more available. My making Regionals is still possibility but not a definite yet.

But my main reason for posting is will I be able to get any and all the maps JC and Map Maker put out for gencon 2010? Please let me know.

I'm also still trying to get a hold of map pack 1. If you don't have any left JC would you allow them to be posted on holocron so I can download them and get them printed off?

Maps are the worst thing to get in this game. Once they go out of print they are almost never found again. The less availability makes it even worst.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:23 am 
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I'm all for adding the custom maps to the Jedi Challenge and other non-restricted map list events this year (that is, assuming JC is not restricted list - I honestly can't remember if that's been announced or not). But assuming it's standard list, I'd support it. Perhaps we need a new thread to discuss which ones if any shouldn't be on the standard list. Then we need to make an actual list of the maps we are going to legalize, to make it easy for Dean to write the floor rules update in July.

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