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 Post subject: Re: Virtual Sets: Please, avoid the disruptive special ability!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:01 pm 
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It is ONE trick that some squads build around. Any melee based squad with CE's will face problems vs Disruptive. But that is just it, only problems. Not a situation of all clones vs Palpatine SL. It hinders your squad yes, but it doesn't kill it outright. Trust me, Yodabuck squads still did pretty well against me with Kyle, JBM. And they were utilizing 2 very good CEs, swap and Momentum.

And that is the thing, I can't think of a squad that Disruptive outright kills. Most comptetant players should be able to deal with the problems it presents. If Disruptive is that powerful to you, then I think you are too reliant on CEs. But again, my most top teir squads have only really relied on one CE that will likely never be disrupted.

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 Post subject: Re: Virtual Sets: Please, avoid the disruptive special ability!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:05 pm 
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Sithborg wrote:

And that is the thing, I can't think of a squad that Disruptive outright kills. Most comptetant players should be able to deal with the problems it presents. If Disruptive is that powerful to you, then I think you are too reliant on CEs. But again, my most top teir squads have only really relied on one CE that will likely never be disrupted.



Disagree. Nom Bomb squads, ie both my '08 gencon champ squad and last years regional squad. In fact at last years regional against daniel (atlanta) we both knew it was over before it started. If I played him 100 times, he would beat me 99 of those. Advance scouts are toast against KKBM.

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 Post subject: Re: Virtual Sets: Please, avoid the disruptive special ability!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:21 pm 
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Sithborg wrote:
It is ONE trick that some squads build around. Any melee based squad with CE's will face problems vs Disruptive. But that is just it, only problems. Not a situation of all clones vs Palpatine SL. It hinders your squad yes, but it doesn't kill it outright. Trust me, Yodabuck squads still did pretty well against me with Kyle, JBM. And they were utilizing 2 very good CEs, swap and Momentum.

And that is the thing, I can't think of a squad that Disruptive outright kills. Most comptetant players should be able to deal with the problems it presents. If Disruptive is that powerful to you, then I think you are too reliant on CEs. But again, my most top teir squads have only really relied on one CE that will likely never be disrupted.


I'm not very good at explressing what I mean. I was getting more at the fact that the guy was pleased to have a squad that was not very CE reliant. IMO a Yobuck swap squad is heavily CE reliant, even if it is only one CE.

What you are saying is completely true and I agree with it. I just wan't sure if you were either misunderstanding what I was saying, or if you were just moving the discussion on.


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 Post subject: Re: Virtual Sets: Please, avoid the disruptive special ability!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:34 pm 
Really Cool Alien from a Cantina
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wannabemexican wrote:
I'm not very good at explressing what I mean. I was getting more at the fact that the guy was pleased to have a squad that was not very CE reliant. IMO a Yobuck swap squad is heavily CE reliant, even if it is only one CE.

What you are saying is completely true and I agree with it. I just wan't sure if you were either misunderstanding what I was saying, or if you were just moving the discussion on.


Compare it to, say, Yobuck, Panaka, General Skywalker, Commander Ahsoka. Spending 31 points for boardwide swap, it isn't that big a deal to get around Kyle, Juno, or Madine. If you have 100 points of CEs piling up, that disruption will wreck you because the squad concept just got shot in the rear.

I am at the point where I think giving disruptive to very few factions just doesn't make sense, and I don't think it will be more "fun" to give super disruption to just one OR piece as a Force power. Pieces can be fun and they can help balance the game. The best do both. I think everyone having access to affordable disruption takes a large enough step towards greater balance that it is worth doing even if it doesn't make the game oodles more fun.

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 Post subject: Re: Virtual Sets: Please, avoid the disruptive special ability!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:52 pm 
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Personally I cannot see why disruption is such a bad thing. There is only one faction that totally fears disruption. The Rebels. So honestly I think it would be hilarious to see something like OR, SIth (they used battle meditation also ) have a way to nerf the ever popular crutch of the month Rieekan.

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 Post subject: Re: Virtual Sets: Please, avoid the disruptive special ability!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:56 pm 
Really Cool Alien from a Cantina
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One problem I have with disruption is that it hurts melee more(maybe a lot more) than range IMO. Range fingers benefiting form offensive CE just stay 6+ away from the disruptor and melee can't. Same thing happen with swapping in a melee piece vs a range. The range swaps out side a makes it double or what ever were melee has to close the distance if possible. Reeikan and Wedge CE encourages melee.


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 Post subject: Re: Virtual Sets: Please, avoid the disruptive special ability!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:48 pm 
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Darth Muerte wrote:
One problem I have with disruption is that it hurts melee more(maybe a lot more) than range IMO. Range fingers benefiting form offensive CE just stay 6+ away from the disruptor and melee can't. Same thing happen with swapping in a melee piece vs a range. The range swaps out side a makes it double or what ever were melee has to close the distance if possible. Reeikan and Wedge CE encourages melee.


Actually, that's specifically why there is interest in either a more powerful but costly disrtuptive effect, or even a targeted one against a specific commander or follower, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Virtual Sets: Please, avoid the disruptive special ability!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:46 pm 
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greentime wrote:
That buddy was me. The squad in question was swapbuck, which is kind of built entirely around one of the most useful CE's around. Does it annoy me sometimes that my opponent cannily made my life difficult with disruptive? Yes. But I think we need more of it, not less.


Actually, I was referring to the Echo's NR squad from last week's tourney (with Kyle/Mara/Dash/Ganner/Dodonna/Jagger Fel) which didn't use Wedge.

Darth Muerte wrote:
One problem I have with disruption is that it hurts melee more(maybe a lot more) than range IMO. Range fingers benefiting form offensive CE just stay 6+ away from the disruptor and melee can't. Same thing happen with swapping in a melee piece vs a range. The range swaps out side a makes it double or what ever were melee has to close the distance if possible. Reeikan and Wedge CE encourages melee.


Yep, great point.


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 Post subject: Re: Virtual Sets: Please, avoid the disruptive special ability!
PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 11:08 am 
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jhc36 wrote:
Sithborg wrote:

And that is the thing, I can't think of a squad that Disruptive outright kills. Most comptetant players should be able to deal with the problems it presents. If Disruptive is that powerful to you, then I think you are too reliant on CEs. But again, my most top teir squads have only really relied on one CE that will likely never be disrupted.



Disagree. Nom Bomb squads, ie both my '08 gencon champ squad and last years regional squad. In fact at last years regional against daniel (atlanta) we both knew it was over before it started. If I played him 100 times, he would beat me 99 of those. Advance scouts are toast against KKBM.


This is probably the only example, however there are other stealth pieces that can work against KKJBM even with disruptive hurting the boom factor, think Keldor BH's and Mystril Shadow Guards.

As for who should get disruptive? I am in agreement about it going to the Sith and OR, OR most especially, they have tons of gimmicks already, I could see a Zayne having standard disruptive, he does tend to interfer, albiet akwardly in the plans of others. ANd then yeah a power Jedi haveing some kind of cool uber disruptive, I like Bill's idea of a type-2 battle meditation

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Last edited by dalsiandon on Sun May 02, 2010 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Virtual Sets: Please, avoid the disruptive special ability!
PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 1:37 pm 
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True, Nom bombs are hosed by disruptive, but as long as you include some things like Cad Bane or Vong JHs in your squad, you should be able to deal with Kyle better.

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 Post subject: Re: Virtual Sets: Please, avoid the disruptive special ability!
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 5:01 pm 
Third Jedi from the Left
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In addition to the Rebels and New Republic, I could see the Old Republic and the Mandalorians getting Disruptive, but not other factions.

But I do like the idea of a force powered disruption that is like Force Sense, and only lasts the round.

However, I could see some powerful Sith, Imperials/Republic, and Vong characters (Revan, Palpy, and Onimi come to mind) getting some kind of SA that would make commander effects within 6 squares immune to Disruptive, or target character with Disruptive loses Disruptive until this characters next turn.

Just my 2 cents :rebel: :rebel: ...


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 Post subject: Re: Virtual Sets: Please, avoid the disruptive special ability!
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 5:09 pm 
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Sithfan wrote:
In addition to the Rebels and New Republic, I could see the Old Republic and the Mandalorians getting Disruptive, but not other factions.

But I do like the idea of a force powered disruption that is like Force Sense, and only lasts the round.

However, I could see some powerful Sith, Imperials/Republic, and Vong characters (Revan, Palpy, and Onimi come to mind) getting some kind of SA that would make commander effects within 6 squares immune to Disruptive, or target character with Disruptive loses Disruptive until this characters next turn.

Just my 2 cents :rebel: :rebel: ...


Mandalorians? Really? I always saw them as just a "pound it out" faction where they didn't care what you were doing because they knewall they needed was LOS so they could shot you, and then you were done. What's to disrupt? And what character do you recall from the Mandos who provided such ability?

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 Post subject: Re: Virtual Sets: Please, avoid the disruptive special ability!
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 9:18 pm 
Third Jedi from the Left
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dalsiandon wrote:
Sithfan wrote:
In addition to the Rebels and New Republic, I could see the Old Republic and the Mandalorians getting Disruptive, but not other factions.

But I do like the idea of a force powered disruption that is like Force Sense, and only lasts the round.

However, I could see some powerful Sith, Imperials/Republic, and Vong characters (Revan, Palpy, and Onimi come to mind) getting some kind of SA that would make commander effects within 6 squares immune to Disruptive, or target character with Disruptive loses Disruptive until this characters next turn.

Just my 2 cents :rebel: :rebel: ...


Mandalorians? Really? I always saw them as just a "pound it out" faction where they didn't care what you were doing because they knewall they needed was LOS so they could shot you, and then you were done. What's to disrupt? And what character do you recall from the Mandos who provided such ability?


I see your point, as they are essentially a group of commanados ravaging the galaxy and getting into fights. But any scout or communications technician of worth should be able to "disrupt" enemy communications and therefore commander effects. But for a specific example, how about Demagol (from the KotOR comics)...
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...who masqueraded as Rohlan for months in subterfuge amongst Zayne, Jarael, and Gryph without any of them knowing.


It's a little off topic for this thread, but:
If they were to keep their specific flavor that they already have (as overcosted fragile shooters with melee characters with Parry) then maybe they should get some other special ability to become competitive, like Crack Shot (that gets by evade and other damage evading effects) so that your scenario of getting "LOS so they could [shoot] you, and then you were done" might be more accurate. But as of right now, they play like expensive droids that don't have any activation control.

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 Post subject: Re: Virtual Sets: Please, avoid the disruptive special ability!
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 3:36 pm 
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a 17 or 19 point piece that only needs a czerka to do 80 i wouldnt call overcosted. At 200 you can field 6 mini rex's 3 Guns/3 Scouts. Yes they are weak once you close but they can wreck your world if you make 1 error.

Back on subject.

I dont mind disruptive that much but i do hate that i cant play certain commanders cause "I know for a fact ill see 3-4 kyles and 3-4 crix/juno/r2po's" It makes it so i have to play only 1-2 ce's which can be a pain at times.

Im for Disruptive in every faction except sith and mandos. It just doesnt suite them. Sith just plan on straight up choking you to death and dont need it. Mando's i might can see doing something like disruptive kind of like in KOTOR in the dueling area you couldnt use your lightsaber or Force powers you have to fight them straight up. I wouldnt say thats disruptive but maybe something else. Mandos as a faction are trying to fight you when you are at your best they dont care what you have going for you they just want a good fight.

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 Post subject: Re: Virtual Sets: Please, avoid the disruptive special ability!
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 11:50 am 
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This is slightly off topic, but my gaming group was very interested in applying for the opprotunity to beta-test the V-Sets. We would like it very much if we could contribute to the continuity of this awesome game.

Does anyone know who I can talk to so that I may find out if there are any available spots for testing? Any help would be welcome.

Sincerely,
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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 8:38 pm 
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Jester007 wrote:
This is slightly off topic, but my gaming group was very interested in applying for the opprotunity to beta-test the V-Sets. We would like it very much if we could contribute to the continuity of this awesome game.

Does anyone know who I can talk to so that I may find out if there are any available spots for testing? Any help would be welcome.

Sincerely,
Jester007


Basically me, and I will add you to the list. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Virtual Sets: Please, avoid the disruptive special ability!
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 6:26 pm 
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Glad to hear that the thinking on V-sets is to try to give each faction its own approach to the issue of enemy commander effects (and init control, and tempo control, and similar issues). Some factions may not need any specific response to enemy CE's. Some factions like Mandalorians could approach the issue with a "Headhunter" type CE (Allies gain +4 attack and +20 damage vs. characters with a Commander Effect) - the best way to render a commander ineffective is to vape him/her. Rebels and NR use the Disruptive SA which I think simulates tactical "dirty tricks" and staying one step ahead. Seps should have a technology based solution, OR should have a Force-based solution as discussed at length above. What if there was a special ability (Intercept Transmission) that somehow allowed your pieces to benefit from the other guys' CE's too? What if there was a new type of Bug the Vong could throw that would limit the target's ability to send or receive CE's until they made a successful save 11 (like Force Corruption)?

The more variety the better! I remember being so disappointed when a Vader came out who had the same CE as Han Solo, Rebel Hero... hope the V-set designers don't repeat that pattern.


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 Post subject: Re: Virtual Sets: Please, avoid the disruptive special ability!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:54 pm 
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Just adding my 2 cents about a Zayne with Disruptive. I think a standard disruptive could work, but considering the last versions gimmick of Karma effects, a "Karmic Disruptive" would be cool for an updated Zayne as well. I'm not exactly sure what effects I would like to see out of that concept but the idea certainly strikes me as more interesting than a regular disruptive.

A bit off topic now but also on the subject of Mandalorians, I don't quite think disruptive fits. If anything maybe a "Fear" type ability. Considering the reputations Mandalorians have, and any sentient beings knowledge or lack of it in regards to Mandos I think some sort of "Intimidation" effect might be an idea. Maybe a small area of effect ability that nerfs defense or attack, not by a lot maybe just 2, which could be enough to hurt. The idea being the Mandos give people the "heebie jeebies" if you will... haha affecting their performance.

just some random food for thought I guess.

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 Post subject: Re: Virtual Sets: Please, avoid the disruptive special ability!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 7:47 am 
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THIS POST CONTAINS SPOILERS ABOUT THE OUTBOUND FLIGHT BOOK BY TIMOTHY ZAHN

billiv15 wrote:

Actually, that's specifically why there is interest in either a more powerful but costly disrtuptive effect, or even a targeted one against a specific commander or follower, etc.


I realize it might be too late to get these ideas into the first V-set, and if they never made it I would understand, but Im putting the suggestions out there for a Force Choke that causes Disruptive.

1) Vader: Chokes and kills both Capt Antilles and Admiral Ozzel. Also chokes and inadvertently killing Padme.
2) Jorus C'boath (the original, not the crazy clone): Chokes the crap out of Thrawn through the viewscreen when he wasnt even on the same freakin ship.

Vader, obviously Imperial. Probably at least 50 points, and more of a commander Vader than a beatstick. Kinda like an anti-commander commander.

C'boath: I dont know if Id say Republic, as he was clearly gone to the dark side by this point, or if id say Sith. He obviously isnt Separatist, as he had no affiliation with them.

"as long as you have los, the target may not move for the remainder of the turn'. so you choke, they have to stand still, but so do you, which puts him in danger in exchange for limiting the effect.


So, just a couple examples I think would work alright for factions other than 'all' and 'just OR' which seem to be the two most popular opinions for this right now.

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