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 Post subject: Re: Restricted List is going to change give us your input here!!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:35 am 
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i don't think adding maps post regionals would be a problem.

With no new figures between regionals and Gen con it wold probably be nice to get something to shake the meta. We all know how much maps affect things so adding a few wouldn't be bad.

The maps I like off the top of my head are swap caves (although i'm yet to play on it), the exodus class cruiser, JCs Korriban from the 2nd map pack.

The offworld shipping center is a bit biased to the right side (the side with the landed ship), the opposite side tends to be very open in comparission. I suggest caution when adding that one.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:26 am 
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It's certainly not as bad as mid-regionals so I can see your argument. But once we start changing things the WotC era is over. I'd like to see one championship occur with the WotC version of the game in complete form as WotC designed it--we'll have years and years to play the fan-mod version. (And then the minor concern is that I didn't really like how our changes in 2009 post-regionals affected the 2009 championship. Granted, at the time it was likely the better option of those available but it certainly didn't turn out the way anyone hoped.)

Off the top of my head, I prefer Offword Shipping Center to Exodus. Exodus has very unsafe gambit once the doors are blown. Advancement isn't forced much out of the starting area, in particular from the left where you have LOS into gambit basically from the starting spaces. It can be a fun, tight, map and doesn't punish melee quite as bad as some others as it's easier to cross but it doesn't quite meet the same criteria as the other maps on the restricted list now.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:20 am 
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I am not in favor of ever changing the map list pre-Gencon personally. I wasn't in favor of it last year, and never have been. I don't blame Dean for it last year either, so don't think that's what I'm saying. And please appreciate that I recognize I was in favor of a ban of GOWK post-regional and pre-Gencon (no need to point it out as some grand inconsistency in my statements, as it's not, and it's not being overlooked).

The map list we all know has a large impact on the meta. And unless there is a major issue with one of the maps on the list (which we already know is solid in this case, as the restricted list are not new maps in anyway), I would not like to see a change. I don't think doing things to "shake up the meta" is ever the reason to do so in terms of championship play. You do that by changing rules and playing other formats (like mystery map and team tournament). Ideally Regionals - Gencon would become a bit of a competitive season each year, where major changes occur in the off season (Jan 1) and only minor rule tweaks occur on July 1.

And despite the valued opinions here, I don't believe any of the players posting (myself included) has enough experience with enough of the fan made maps to determine inclusion or exclusion. Let us get through Gencon with the restricted list, and then in the fall do some serious playtesting (we could tap a lot of our groups for local testing) on 4-6 of the most highly thought of maps. That may well be what Dean is thinking, I'm just saying it out loud here, and perhaps preaching to the choir on most of this.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:32 am 
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billiv15 wrote:
I am not in favor of ever changing the map list pre-Gencon personally. I wasn't in favor of it last year, and never have been. I don't blame Dean for it last year either, so don't think that's what I'm saying. And please appreciate that I recognize I was in favor of a ban of GOWK post-regional and pre-Gencon (no need to point it out as some grand inconsistency in my statements, as it's not, and it's not being overlooked).

The map list we all know has a large impact on the meta. And unless there is a major issue with one of the maps on the list (which we already know is solid in this case, as the restricted list are not new maps in anyway), I would not like to see a change. I don't think doing things to "shake up the meta" is ever the reason to do so in terms of championship play. You do that by changing rules and playing other formats (like mystery map and team tournament). Ideally Regionals - Gencon would become a bit of a competitive season each year, where major changes occur in the off season (Jan 1) and only minor rule tweaks occur on July 1.

And despite the valued opinions here, I don't believe any of the players posting (myself included) has enough experience with enough of the fan made maps to determine inclusion or exclusion. Let us get through Gencon with the restricted list, and then in the fall do some serious playtesting (we could tap a lot of our groups for local testing) on 4-6 of the most highly thought of maps. That may well be what Dean is thinking, I'm just saying it out loud here, and perhaps preaching to the choir on most of this.


I 100% agree.

Adding new maps at this point would be a disaster IMO.

Most players have seen or have played at least once on the 6 restricted list maps, I have no interest in playing on custom maps, and never have. Many people have never seen these custom maps that would attend GenCon/Regionals.

People who are serious about this game have decent sized collections and maybe half the restricted maps +1/-1 of them. You can't expect people to:

A) Know custom maps even exist.
B) Know they are on the Restricted List.
C) Will be used for a national championship.

Somewhere in the neighborhood of 60% or more of the players attending GenCon/Regionals won't know any of that. They'll go look it up on the event calendar a few weeks before, notice a possible entry of a 'Restricted Map List' and then be horrified when they realize 4 maps they have NEVER seen are on a list for the Championship.

They will probably try to buy them and have then shipped out, and maybe have a week or two to prepare, and that is even if they are serious about competing.

I have nothing against custom maps and minis, but having them in a World Championship right after the game has ceased production just isn't a good move.

Not enough people know about Gamers. When HeroClix went down their main website's forums also went down. That left people stranded internet wise. Luckily, HCRealms was there to pick the game back up into a thriving community that a year and half after that game was dead their community was easily 5-10 times the SWM community is now. That's AFTER the game died.

If you want to have a functional game post-2010 trying to push custom maps or minis this early is a mistake. People still haven't played most of their MotF/Dark Times minis yet.

Just woe it down is my advice.

P.S. I have tentative plans to attend GenCon, if custom maps or minis are apart of the Championship I will probably skip it (as in GenCon as a whole). Not a threat, just don't have nearly the time to integrate that much data in less than 4 months time.


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 Post subject: Re: Restricted List is going to change give us your input here!!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:45 am 
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Further point I forgot to mention. I don't think it would be at all fair to add custom maps without a minimum of 6 months notice for competitive play for Gencon. The community will adjust over time as to where to get the new stuff (or new to them), but you need to allow some time for people to learn about the rule changes, and to figure out how and where to get it. Not to mention we have to deal with the problem of map accessibility in terms of custom maps in ways we have not had to with WotC maps. That's a whole nother issue we are not prepared for at this time.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:00 pm 
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I dont know if I like any of the maps after looking at them other than Theed. Mustafar might be too open after looking at it. I really dont like either of the starship maps for minis only for rpging.

I think there has to be a line on gamers to where they are being sold. A big bold button telling people where to go. I think in the end Gamers should have there own store selling maps and card stock of the V cards it would help with this problem but cause others so who knows.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:19 pm 
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joelker41 wrote:
Somewhere in the neighborhood of 60% or more of the players attending GenCon/Regionals won't know any of that. They'll go look it up on the event calendar a few weeks before, notice a possible entry of a 'Restricted Map List' and then be horrified when they realize 4 maps they have NEVER seen are on a list for the Championship.


While I obviously agree with your sentiment, I think you overstate the case here. The majority of the people at the championships have been people with a online presence that knew the metagame well, and if something were added they would at worst know about it, and more than likely have playtested it to some extent. I think that would be true in 2010 even if the decision is made to go ahead with a change despite the concerns raised here.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:42 pm 
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NickName wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
Also (and this is my 'sorta PS') - having 10 as "a nice round number" is silly IMO. Put maps on the list because they are good for the game. If it ends up being 9, fine. If it's eleven - wonderful. Picking an arbitrary number beforehand could cause abusable maps to be included OR it could even cause great maps to be left off. Either way - don't pick an arbitrary number, even if we are a base 10 society. Include maps on their merits alone. :)


I plan to use your analysis from the original restricted list thread as my basis for which maps make good additions. You broke down my thought process into simple but concrete terms. :)


I'm flattered! :oops: High praise. :D


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:07 am 
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I really wish I had something profound to say in all this. I can talk form the heart as I usually do. Obviously this is a very big deal to me. Ironically, I have nothing to add to a conversation which quite frankly is the most relevant and important issue to me in the whole time I've been on the boards.

So I just going to watch what you guys have to say about it, and tell you what I know. If given the opportunity to have any of my maps legal, or any future maps legal, I will do everything in my power to give you the best maps I can. As many of you know I am already in the process of designing maps with people with Vast Star Wars tourney experience, In fact they are designing the majority of the layouts. A good portion of these maps are going to be available by (or just before) GenCon, and the rest in the fall.

I do understand the reluctance, and people trepidations with timing. I have nothing to offer in defense. Obviously throwing new maps into the mix is going to change things. But I don’t think it’s going to be necessarily a bad thing. My train of thought is if everyone is put at a disadvantage, it’s no longer a disadvantage.

I’ve blindly been a proponent of legalization of custom maps, and I don’t want to do it anymore. I can only offer what I know, and what I know is that I’ve always done my best to submit everything I’ve done for public review to make sure it what this community wants, and I will continue to do it.

And please, please, DO NOT take this as a petty threat, but a lot of what’s kept me making maps is the hope that some of them will be used in organized play. If this is something that gets shot down, I am probably going to have to move on myself. I’ve been offered a few big opportunities for projects that I’ve intentionally sat on for the sake of the future of Organized Play, and I am going to eventually, for the sake of my family have to address those opportunities.

If Theed does get put on the list I am going to insists you let me re-do the art. I'll keep the layout Identical, but re-do the art and put it in one of the upcoming packs.

I think the big thing is that when a topic like this comes up, proponents of the custom maps, who I would generally day are either casual players, or people who play competitively, but not at bigger events, just really don’t care much either way. Usually it leaves the opponents to discuss why something shouldn’t happen.

For what it’s worth, If I was going to legalize any of the maps:

Theed,
Yavin Ruins (the first one),
Off world shipping center,
Mos Eisley Town Hall,
And most of the upcoming maps that a lot of you haven’t seen yet.


Anyway, like I said, I’m here until a decision is made.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:54 am 
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JC, I'm 100% certain we will be adding your maps to the Organized Play list. Remember, this discussion is just about the Restricted list. I would guess that almost all of your maps would be good ones for the 'Standard' list. So, this thread is really more about how do we separate the maps between Restricted/Standard, and what timing do we use to introduce them.

Jedicartographer wrote:
And most of the upcoming maps that a lot of you haven’t seen yet.


Hehe. Yes, from what I've seen, there's definitely a couple of maps in that batch which will be good for the Restricted list. I've heard that the Rishi Outpost in particular should be a good one. :P

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:12 am 
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LoboStele wrote:
JC, I'm 100% certain we will be adding your maps to the Organized Play list. Remember, this discussion is just about the Restricted list. I would guess that almost all of your maps would be good ones for the 'Standard' list. So, this thread is really more about how do we separate the maps between Restricted/Standard, and what timing do we use to introduce them.

Jedicartographer wrote:
And most of the upcoming maps that a lot of you haven’t seen yet.


Hehe. Yes, from what I've seen, there's definitely a couple of maps in that batch which will be good for the Restricted list. I've heard that the Rishi Outpost in particular should be a good one. :P



And that shows you how much I know. I didn’t know there wa s a difference between the restricted map list and a legal map list.

Long and short of it: I’m here if the league needs me, and when it doesn’t need me I’ll move on.


Rishi outpost is a great layout, and I'm sad AG7 gets to do the Art!

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:20 am 
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LoboStele wrote:
JC, I'm 100% certain we will be adding your maps to the Organized Play list. Remember, this discussion is just about the Restricted list. I would guess that almost all of your maps would be good ones for the 'Standard' list. So, this thread is really more about how do we separate the maps between Restricted/Standard, and what timing do we use to introduce them.

Hehe. Yes, from what I've seen, there's definitely a couple of maps in that batch which will be good for the Restricted list. I've heard that the Rishi Outpost in particular should be a good one. :P


Yep, there is little reason they can't virtually all be added to the standard list. Might be a couple of custom maps that don't make it I suppose, but not really a big deal. Restricted is different.

Oh and Rishi is nothing compared to some crime lord's audience chamber :)

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:16 am 
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billiv15 wrote:
LoboStele wrote:
JC, I'm 100% certain we will be adding your maps to the Organized Play list. Remember, this discussion is just about the Restricted list. I would guess that almost all of your maps would be good ones for the 'Standard' list. So, this thread is really more about how do we separate the maps between Restricted/Standard, and what timing do we use to introduce them.

Hehe. Yes, from what I've seen, there's definitely a couple of maps in that batch which will be good for the Restricted list. I've heard that the Rishi Outpost in particular should be a good one. :P


Yep, there is little reason they can't virtually all be added to the standard list. Might be a couple of custom maps that don't make it I suppose, but not really a big deal. Restricted is different.

Oh and Rishi is nothing compared to some crime lord's audience chamber :)


Jabba's palace is really sweet to, and I'm glad I got to do the art for it!

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:24 am 
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Yeah, I echo what Bill is saying: I can't think of very many of JC's maps--if any at all--that won't "make the cut" for the Standard map list.

The Restricted list is quite a different bird, though; if there are any abuses to be made with maps in the Restricted list, you can bet that they'll be exploited. That's why we're being so careful about what maps to include on the Restricted list.

And yes, I'm very eager to see how these Masters Series maps turn out! If they are as good as people are hinting at, then we could very well end up with more than 10 on the Restricted list...but that's a discussion for another time.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:17 pm 
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thereisnotry wrote:
Yeah, I echo what Bill is saying: I can't think of very many of JC's maps--if any at all--that won't "make the cut" for the Standard map list.

The Restricted list is quite a different bird, though; if there are any abuses to be made with maps in the Restricted list, you can bet that they'll be exploited. That's why we're being so careful about what maps to include on the Restricted list.

And yes, I'm very eager to see how these Masters Series maps turn out! If they are as good as people are hinting at, then we could very well end up with more than 10 on the Restricted list...but that's a discussion for another time.

JC - I would echo what many are saying - differenciating between restricted and standard - but I would also add this: I think most of us are thrilled at having more maps, both for restricted and standard made legal. The bigger issue (for me at least) is the timing. I agree with what Nickname said - let us have our last championship as wizards laid it out for us, and then the game is ours to do with what we please. And then - FOR SURE - I am all in for having your maps as well as Chris West's and others make the official lists.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:23 pm 
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the only map that matters is the Thyferrian Spaceport PERIOD!!!

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:32 pm 
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dnemiller wrote:
the only map that matters is the Thyferrian Spaceport PERIOD!!!


LOL

It'll be really funny when all the Master's series maps come out, and Dean, Bill, and I have been the only ones joking around like this regarding the maps that we helped work on. When the maps come out, watch and I won't be surprised if all the players latch onto a different one altogether as 'the best'. :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:38 pm 
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I know! I really excited to get them out. I can't really tell which one I like the best.
I probably should be posting more teasers, but I want to drag out the suspense a little more.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:41 pm 
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LoboStele wrote:
dnemiller wrote:
the only map that matters is the Thyferrian Spaceport PERIOD!!!


LOL

It'll be really funny when all the Master's series maps come out, and Dean, Bill, and I have been the only ones joking around like this regarding the maps that we helped work on. When the maps come out, watch and I won't be surprised if all the players latch onto a different one altogether as 'the best'. :lol:



Yeah, I'd hate to say it, but just from the names of each map, I have to say I am most excited about Deri's Rhen Var Citadel :D

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:37 am 
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Sorry I didn't notice this thread sooner; I really should make a habit of browsing more sections of these forums on a regular basis. :)

I understand the desire to keep the map lists stable until the Championship; that makes a lot of sense for those trying to prepare themselves for the tournament. However, I would urge you folks to consider having a new official map list ready to announce *at* Gen Con, if not before. For that matter, I would encourage you to have a printed list of the new official map lists (for Open, Standard, and Restricted) ready to hand out on day 1 as fliers to participants at Gen Con.

The reason for this is simple: JC and I will both be at the convention (I know I will, and I think JC has committed to it as well--correct me if I'm wrong, Matt!) with our maps available for purchase. It would be a huge benefit to both of us, and to the players at the convention, if the new map lists were made public in advance, or at least on-site. JC and I will be able to sell more of our work at the show, and the players will be able to pick up the maps they are missing without paying any added shipping costs. That could save people a lot of money.

Plus, frankly, it gives players a huge boost in confidence that their game will continue into 2011. Having the new official map lists charted out in advance tells people that the folks keeping Organized Play going are on the ball, working out future issues well in advance of the next season. It gives people something concrete to look forward to, and new official products to invest in at the show. Without any new miniatures released at the convention, our maps will be the only new "official" content that SWM players will be able to purchase at Gen Con. Like, ever...

For that reason, I would also encourage you to make sure the restricted list includes a map from each of JC's, and my own, currently-available products. It shouldn't be hard to find a map from each that lives up to strict competitive expectations (since we've both made that a priority for some time), and it will help us both stay in business.

If you can also include on that list a map from whatever new releases we each have planned at the show, all the better (for both of us, and for the game moving forward...). I'll be happy to provide an early review for those making this decision once my plans get that far, and I understand that JC already is showing off his in-progress work to some of you. I haven't seen any of it myself, but I trust that it's good stuff.

There's my two credits. :)

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