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 Post subject: Re: Getting Close to making our list so give us your input!!!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:01 pm 
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AdmiralMotti89 wrote:
Vader Scourge doing 30 damage once per gallop doesn’t do much against the immense HP that I already mentioned.


I think this sort of goes to show that you haven't truly thought through how Yobuck affects the meta and how to properly counter him. Vader Scourge has both Djem So AND Riposte. If you combine him with Mith'rawn, that allows him to swing at a +22 for 40 against Yobuck. So, if Yobuck attempts to Gallop past Vader, a smart Yobuck player will not attack Vader, but just take the AoO. So, it will be 40 damage, not 30 in most cases (most solid Scourge squads include Thrawn). If the Yobuck player decides to attack Vader, they are potentially taking 120 damage (Djem So + Riposte + AoO). Then, if the squad contains other pieces like Arden Lyn, Cad Bane, etc., the Thrawn player has some pretty decent options. You play the squad right, and Yobuck will rarely, if ever, be able to get to your swap fodder without having to take massive AoOs to do it. And if he decides to just base Vader/Arden/Cad, then it's quite tricky to pull that off, swap, and then attack again for the kill. The Imp player will typically do a swap of their own in the middle there somewhere, or unelash hell on Yobuck to the point where he wouldn't survive another galloping attack.

The counters are already out there, in the form of squads that also work well against other things too.

fingersandteeth wrote:
LoboStele wrote:
So, all said and done, NTMTO really never ended up doing anything!

Not true.

it expanded options but people complained so much about the strength of both Han Rogue and Old Man Han that they never bothered to try and make squads that utilized them. However, they were usable you just had to look elsewhere for power rather than using Han Scoundrel. I had several successful builds that used both NTMTO Hans. I still think Old Man Han is one of the best pieces on the NR particulally with his oddly named wife but its not something many people agree with usually because he isn't the uber piece people want in a 50 pointer. He's a combination of a 20 point tech and a 30 point shooter in one fig. Very well designed IMO.

The best example of a truely meta build that incorporated NTMTO was when people would run Old Man Han/Mara and an MTB. That worked for a while until people got wise to it (Gen Con 2008) and then Yobuck put a nail in its coffin.

NTMTO is a great example of an ability that has been well incorporated into the game. Requiring skill to built it in and, therefore, use. The issue is that people generally want plug and play pieces like Yobuck and this ewok trap idea that "hard" counters a strategy so people don't have to think in order to destroy a tactic.

Ditto goes for the complaint about swarm squads being nerfed. Try running a Nom bomb swarm or a Mon mothma swarm and see how successful the Yobuck squad is. The issue then is people can't run the swarm THEY want to run (usually aqualish/han St/ithorian swarms that have only ever been t2).

This issue won't go away, and any virtual set will consistently run into this problem because the set will inescapably alienate people who won't get exactly what they think they should out of the set and split from the community.


Eh, different views I guess. I wasn't trying to say that NTMTO didn't have any impact at all, as I think it's still worth running even to this day. I was trying to say that it wasn't the direct counter that everyone wanted it to be, and that it seemed to be at first glance. It didn't have the effect of keeping Init control from running the game. My point was (and something you sort of corroborated), was that it wasn't until the introduction of the MTB and then the change to the activating 1 at the beginning of the round, that it all really came together. NTMTO by itself wasn't enough to affect things.

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 Post subject: Re: Does Yobuck/Lancer need a counter?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:05 pm 
Unnamed Wookiee
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As far as meta is concerned, I believe that Bill and Aaron have effectively won this arguement. Yoda gallops in and attacks Vader/Arden/Arica/Han Smug/Speeder/Durge/Maul and risks huge damage being shot/Djem So/Riposte/Meleed right back at him. Yobuck is tough and he's a great peice but he's hardly un-beatable. And the same goes with Lancer, though admittedly you must go about it differently.

But the OP isn't really all that concerned with meta. He wants to play what he wants to play and stand a chance against something that is made to defeat it. It just doesn't work that way.


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 Post subject: Re: Getting Close to making our list so give us your input!!!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:11 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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AdmiralMotti89 wrote:
Ruhk wrote:
Laid Traps (enemies that move within 6 squares of this character must make a save of 11 for each squared moved within 6, on a fail, enemies must end their move)


I would think that that is more abusive than what I posted. Maybe I'm interpreting it incorrectly, but it looks like for a melee character that starts outside of 6 would have to make 5 saves of 11 to move in to make an attack. It's defeinitely a cool alternative, but the more you take it away from a specific ability, the more it counters things that need not be countered.

Maybe a mix?

Rope Traps:
Whenever an ally within 6 squares of this character is attacked by an enemy within 6 squares of this character, that enemy must make a save of 11 or immediately end its move.


Yep - nice. I like it. I'd focus it more, though, so it only affects mobile attacks and gallop/strafe:

Whenever an ally within 6 squares of this character is attacked by an enemy within 6 squares of this character that has moved this turn, that enemy must make a save of 11 or end its move on the nearest empty space.


I think another option is one that was given in the BlooMilk custom areas on an Ackbar - if you win initiative, enemies may only attack one character per turn. I'd take it one further to "if this character is activated, enemies may only attack one character per turn." Then Yobuck isn't eliminated but severely restricted in when he could be used. With Master Tactician he could be all but eliminated if you spin that charcter first every round. But then you're giving the opponent first chance to attack every round, which seems like a reasonable tradeoff.


Last edited by FlyingArrow on Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Does Yobuck/Lancer need a counter?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:44 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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AdmiralSlowbar wrote:
But the OP isn't really all that concerned with meta. He wants to play what he wants to play and stand a chance against something that is made to defeat it. It just doesn't work that way.


Is there another example of this, where a single piece on the other side automatically defeats an entire class of squads?

As an example of hate squads - consider a Rebel Push squad versus Vong. The Vong clearly will have the upper hand since the whole point of the Rebel Push squad is to use FP4, which they can't do versus Vong. But they still can shoot, use a lightsaber, etc. With some lucky rolls and good positioning there's a chance they could beat the hate squad but obviously it's unlikely. I think that's how a hate squad should work. Strong advantage, but not a first-round automatic win.

Contrast this with Yobuck versus a swarm (that doesn't have death shots or Nom bombs). He can go right through virtually the whole squad in one turn, leaving you with virtually nothing. It's not even a hate squad - it's a hate piece (or a hate quarter-squad if you prefer). And it doesn't invalidate one particular squad - it invalidates an entire class of squads. Rebel troopers, Sith troopers, OR troopers, jawas, ewoks, most stormtrooper builds, and the list goes on. I don't think anyone is saying that Yobuck is broken or unbeatable in general, just that he (and to a lesser extent the IG Lancer) eliminates an entire strategy from the game that could be viable. Counters that have been mentioned are restricted to one faction (Nom bombs, death shots), expensive enough that it's not really a swarm anymore (use 40-50 hp figures), etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Does Yobuck/Lancer need a counter?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:01 pm 
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I'm sorry, but the Lancer and Yobuck were instrumental in bringing Melee back into the game. I think more people want to play Jedi than swarms.
And besides, Snare Rifle and Clamp are great threats. Anyone who says that Zuckuss does not give Yobuck trouble has not played it correctly.

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 Post subject: Re: Does Yobuck/Lancer need a counter?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:34 pm 
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FlyingArrow wrote:
Is there another example of this, where a single piece on the other side automatically defeats an entire class of squads?

As an example of hate squads - consider a Rebel Push squad versus Vong.

[snip]

Contrast this with Yobuck versus a swarm (that doesn't have death shots or Nom bombs).


ie. Let's compare a well-built squad and its counter to a poorly build squad and its counter. Then we'll conclude that the poorly build squad lost because of the class of squad it is rather than because it was poorly built. :lol:

There are swarms that can deal with these figures. It's not fair to eliminate them from the discussion outright.

If you refuse to consider the best options for one of the classes (Nom Bombs or deathblows for example) then you must also not consider the best counters (Kybuck or Lancer for example).

It seems easier to just consider everything in the discussion.

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 Post subject: Re: Does Yobuck/Lancer need a counter?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:41 pm 
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Swarm squad needs a lot of help. Yodabuck and Lancer just put the nail in the coffin. I like the over all effect Yodabuck and Lancers had over all on the meta but I would be nice if swarms squads could compete and possible win a big tournament. Ng'ok is very close to a great counter for Gallop/Yodabuck IMO. He is cheap and a fringe which is key in letting as many swarm sqaud as possible to competitive play. One must be very careful with stick abilities like clamp and snare rifle as they really hurt melee. Clamp is good as its on melee peice but more range movement blocker would hurt the meta to much IMO. A direct counter isn't needed but a counter is need to get the ball rolling. A good solution would fix as many of the problems swarm sqaud face with as little figure as possible without hurting other squads for the meta or reducing the chance of future gallopers and strafers. which lead to ...

The other problems swarm squads have. Like the over head of needing CE's and loss of effectiveness do to attrition. Saying to use 50+hp doesn't work in my book as SWM already has ton of fun figure with low hp that just need a little help.

Note:Swarm for the above leads more to trooper/mercenaries/commando sqauds and not the hoard of 3pt figure for activation and MTB.


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 Post subject: Re: Does Yobuck/Lancer need a counter?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:08 pm 
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Darth Muerte wrote:
Note:Swarm for the above leads more to trooper/mercenaries/commando sqauds and not the hoard of 3pt figure for activation and MTB.


See now that's where I think the discussion should go (and may well be what Motti was referring to). The real "problem" area with Yoda and Lancer are the trooper squads, which aren't really swarms in the traditional sense. Right now you just can't use 10-12 weak shooters outside of Vong and Republic and expect to compete with yoda and lancer. So you either accept that or you build in the best counters you can along with the shooters. Zuckuss is amazing against Yoda, and yes, you can get los on him quite easily with good tactics. Part of the deal is preparing.

Personally, I don't want to see a squad of 25 Aqualish Assassins, an IC and Han in ST dominating the game. The meta requiring a wider variety of figures is a good thing, not a bad thing. Top level play should require some level of creativity, and there are several ways to make a 7-8 Aqualish squad a serious threat with the IC. My example of using Luke CotF was ignored, but let's now consider it.

Here's the old build. Let's see what we can do with it now:

--Jarael the Ithorian Beast--
49 Luke Skywalker, Champion of the Force
25 Han Solo in Stormtrooper Armor
23 Jarael
11 Ithorian Commander
9 General Dodonna
8 Juno Eclipse
8 Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Spirit
8 Wicket
49 Aqualish Assassin x7
9 Ugnaught Demolitionist x3

(199pts. 18 activations)

Juno protects you from the swap when played carefully, Jarael and Han can move out and kill scrubs early on. Spread out your AAs so Yoda can't kill em all in one swipe and force them to charge in, do minimal (and force the AoO's on Luke) for a while and you've got a good base.

Now to further tailor to the current meta, I would do the following.
--Jarael the Ithorian Beast 2010--
49 Luke Skywalker, Champion of the Force
27 Lobot
25 Han Solo in Stormtrooper Armor
23 Jarael
11 Ithorian Commander
27 Wookiee Commando x3
8 Juno Eclipse
21 Aqualish Assassin x3
9 Ugnaught Demolitionist x3

Preferred Reinforcements:
(Lobot) 13 Chagrian Mercenary Commander
(Lobot) 7 Aqualish Assassin

(200pts. 17 activations)

Same tactics as before, but now I have Chagrin, Luke hits Yoda for 80 on the AoO. Guess he won't do that again :) And against a lancer, I go with an Ugo boss, and another ugg. Jarael and the SD can take out the lancer, as can Luke if he ends a round within 12 of it, and wins init.

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 Post subject: Re: Does Yobuck/Lancer need a counter?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:07 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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NickName wrote:
ie. Let's compare a well-built squad and its counter to a poorly build squad and its counter. Then we'll conclude that the poorly build squad lost because of the class of squad it is rather than because it was poorly built.


Republic and Vong have viable swarm options. I'd rather see those counters stay with those factions, though - better for them to have that flavor.

But troopers in at least 4 factions (rebel, OR, sith, NR) are nearly useless. You called them "poorly built" swarm squads - of course they are. By definition they're poorly built in the current meta. After all, the point of this conversation is how to let them be viable again.

I understand that Yobuck helped make melee viable, and it is more important to have a viable melee option than a viable swarm option. But there's no reason they can't co-exist.

Someone made a good point that excessive clamps/glue options are going to hurt melee a lot. I think the better approach is to have a way to say enemies can only attack one character per turn. Whether a CE that protects a radius, or something that is only in effect part of the time, etc. Something that just makes strafe/gallop a lot harder to use.

Billiv, you mentioned trooper swarms not being a traditional swarm, but I've been including them in the conversation - a swarm being any group of say 8+ low cost figures.


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 Post subject: Re: Does Yobuck/Lancer need a counter?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:30 pm 
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Not all factions should be a trooper faction or swarm faction.

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 Post subject: Re: Does Yobuck/Lancer need a counter?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:43 pm 
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billiv15 wrote:
Personally, I don't want to see a squad of 25 Aqualish Assassins, an IC and Han in ST dominating the game. The meta requiring a wider variety of figures is a good thing, not a bad thing.


I don't think anyone wants to see any single option dominate the game. The squad you mention there puts all the eggs in one basket, so I wouldn't expect it to be viable. But I would like to see 10-15 Aqualish Assassins (or rebel troopers, sith troopers, duros scouts, etc) plus some tech and counters be viable. Maybe not tier 1, but not an auto-loss versus Yobuck like they are now.

Quote:
My example of using Luke CotF was ignored, but let's now consider it.

Here's the old build...
[SNIP]
Now to further tailor to the current meta, I would do the following...
--Jarael the Ithorian Beast 2010--
49 Luke Skywalker, Champion of the Force
27 Lobot
25 Han Solo in Stormtrooper Armor
23 Jarael
11 Ithorian Commander
27 Wookiee Commando x3
8 Juno Eclipse
21 Aqualish Assassin x3
9 Ugnaught Demolitionist x3

Preferred Reinforcements:
(Lobot) 13 Chagrian Mercenary Commander
(Lobot) 7 Aqualish Assassin

(200pts. 17 activations)

Same tactics as before, but now I have Chagrin, Luke hits Yoda for 80 on the AoO. Guess he won't do that again :) And against a lancer, I go with an Ugo boss, and another ugg. Jarael and the SD can take out the lancer, as can Luke if he ends a round within 12 of it, and wins init.


This second build isn't really a swarm, at least not the kind I've been talking about. (Feel free to give you definition of a swarm squad so we can be sure to speak the same language.) You're only using 3 assassins and 3 ugnaughts. You also have the 3 wookiees, but they have enough HP to survive a Yobuck pass. Yes, it's a viable squad, but it doesn't answer the question Motti and I have been asking.


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 Post subject: Re: Does Yobuck/Lancer need a counter?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:44 pm 
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FlyingArrow wrote:
NickName wrote:
ie. Let's compare a well-built squad and its counter to a poorly build squad and its counter. Then we'll conclude that the poorly build squad lost because of the class of squad it is rather than because it was poorly built.

But troopers in at least 4 factions (rebel, OR, sith, NR) are nearly useless. You called them "poorly built" swarm squads - of course they are. By definition they're poorly built in the current meta. After all, the point of this conversation is how to let them be viable again.


Actually, it's not to me. :)

To me if some form of swarm is viable in some faction at competetive level events then swarms are viable.

You've narrowed the definition to swarms including of 8+ troopers in 4 particular factions. Why does that need to be viable against the top tier? If I said that Mando, Imperial and OR squads composed only of uniques must be viable or clone squads vs Palpy SL or pure faction squads must be viable or any other specific subset of general cases would you agree with that? I don't think you would. It's too limiting and arbitrary.

So, no, I don't think a Rebel, OR, Sith or NR squad including 8+ trooper necessarily needs to be competetive with the very best anti-swarm pieces in the game.

To me the game is about this: if I bring a narrowly focused squad (trooper swarm) every week, and lose to a specific counter every week (Kybuck) then it's my job to stop trying to fit a square peg in a round hole and build something that beats Kybuck and bring it until my opponent gets tired of losing and brings something else. Then I try to beat whatever he brings with my narrowly focused squad (trooper swarm) again. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Does Yobuck/Lancer need a counter?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:40 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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NickName wrote:
You've narrowed the definition to swarms including of 8+ troopers in 4 particular factions. Why does that need to be viable against the top tier?

So, no, I don't think a Rebel, OR, Sith or NR squad including 8+ trooper necessarily needs to be competetive with the very best anti-swarm pieces in the game.


I did not narrow the definition of swarms to 8+ troopers in 4 particular factions. I defined a swarm as 8+ copies of low-cost figures. I just pointed out those troopers as examples of pieces that should be playable in a swarm but aren't. Why should swarms be viable? Because we have about 100 pieces with 10-20 hit points that are not in the Republic/Vong/Empire, which could potentially be the basis for swarm squad ideas. As is, they are all nothing more than filler/activations.

I'm not saying they need to be tier 1 (though that might be nice), or even "competitive" with anti-swarm pieces. They should still lose to Yobuck in general (just like Vong will generally beat a Rebel Push squad, or an Evade/SSM heavy squad will generally beat a shooter-heavy squad). What it shouldn't be is an auto-loss like it is now - where half of a squad can be wiped out in one activation. That's not even a game worth playing. I'm just arguing for playability - not tier 1.


Last edited by FlyingArrow on Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Getting Close to making our list so give us your input!!!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:20 pm 
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fingersandteeth wrote:
Ditto goes for the complaint about swarm squads being nerfed. Try running a Nom bomb swarm or a Mon mothma swarm and see how successful the Yobuck squad is. The issue then is people can't run the swarm THEY want to run (usually aqualish/han St/ithorian swarms that have only ever been t2).


I think that really hits the nail on the head. But I think it would be nice if we had another option which gave the swarm squads a chance where the pieces don't need to be defeated to counter Strafe/Gallop. Leia Hoth Commander is an example of that, and I've always felt the Separatists need an equivalent for droids.

We should also better define what squads exactly we want to be helping. I would like to see something which assists Imperial trooper squads, and possibly Ewok swarms. It should be as difficult as possible to abuse in conjunction with MTB/tempo control. Makes it more of a challenge to design, but helps to bring back these very "Star Warsy" theme squads to the top tables.

Some ideas:

Squad Impulsive Shot: Whenever an ally within 6 squares with the same name as this character is defeated, make one immediate attack against the enemy which defeated it.

Like a version of Mon Mothma's CE, only potentially deadlier. Position 3 or 4 Stormtroopers, Yobuck takes out the first one, and is suddenly hit by several free attacks.

Squad Retreat: Whenever an ally within 6 squares with the same name as this character is defeated, may immediately move 2 squares.

Usually the Yobuck/Lancer player knows precisely where they are moving, and where they need to hit, for maximum effect. Being able to move a bit may help move some pieces out of harm's way and make opponent rethink their movement.

Combat Reflexes: If an enemy moves into an adjacent square and this character has not activated this round, may make an immediate attack against that enemy. This character is then considered activated this round.

A more trooper-centric ability. Gives troopers the chance to "shoot first" at the advancing enemy. It gives up their activation, but that's no cost at all if the trooper was about to die anyway. Also gives a chance to actually kill the enemy first, potentially saving the trooper from near-certain death.


These are just ideas off the top of my head, but they are examples of "counter abilities" which do not explicitly state that they are Strafe/Gallop counters. They have many other uses outside of countering those abilities. IMO, that's the direction we need to go.


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 Post subject: Re: Getting Close to making our list so give us your input!!!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:01 pm 
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Wedge772 wrote:
Squad Impulsive Shot: Whenever an ally within 6 squares with the same name as this character is defeated, make one immediate attack against the enemy which defeated it.

This one seems far too powerful.

Quote:
Squad Retreat: Whenever an ally within 6 squares with the same name as this character is defeated, may immediately move 2 squares.

This is a nice idea, but I don't think it would be enough to make swarms playable.

Quote:
Combat Reflexes: If an enemy moves into an adjacent square and this character has not activated this round, may make an immediate attack against that enemy. This character is then considered activated this round.

This one sounds like a winner. This looks like a good solution, but not a universal one. Handing this out to everyone via a CE, or even all non-uniques, would probably be too powerful. (If a strong offensive piece gets it, it nerfs melee too much.) But if the boost is restricted to a particular faction's troopers, for example, it sounds great as long as the troopers aren't total beasts. It's like deathstrikes, but a little more powerful since it comes before dying.

I'd say this is one of the best two ideas I've heard for boosting currently unplayable swarms to playability. The other one I like is a restriction that prevents enemies from attacking multiple characters on one turn. Original idea was saber1's on his Admiral Ackbar, Supreme Commander in the BlooMilk customs area. Here's a variant on that idea:

Tactical Adjustments: Whenever an ally is defeated, if this character is not activated you may consider this character activated. If you do, enemies may not attack any other characters this turn.

Put that on a 15-point piece without much offense and you have to devote another 15-points of tech in the build, and then an activation to stop a Yobuck or (or big GMA) assault. A hefty price to pay, but it keeps your squad from being cut in half in one activation. Also, it doesn't glue Yobuck, so he can run away and try again next round. It just means he has to do his hit-and-run attacks one piece at a time.


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 Post subject: Re: Getting Close to making our list so give us your input!!!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:03 am 
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Wedge772 wrote:
fingersandteeth wrote:
Ditto goes for the complaint about swarm squads being nerfed. Try running a Nom bomb swarm or a Mon mothma swarm and see how successful the Yobuck squad is. The issue then is people can't run the swarm THEY want to run (usually aqualish/han St/ithorian swarms that have only ever been t2).


I think that really hits the nail on the head. But I think it would be nice if we had another option which gave the swarm squads a chance where the pieces don't need to be defeated to counter Strafe/Gallop. Leia Hoth Commander is an example of that, and I've always felt the Separatists need an equivalent for droids.


Hoth Leia is a decent example, but I've always felt she struggles with the following:

A) Most non-uniques do not have force points. Thus they will have only one shot at making the save of 16. Even if you run a higher number of non-uniques, the odds just aren't in your favor.

B) The associated cost of her CE. I honestly don't mind the CE, but I think she needs to offer more or cost less. As it stands, you are running Leia for that CE. She contributes nothing else. Also, by using Hoth Leia, that means you are not running A&E Leia. That's a big sacrifice right there. I've always felt Leia should have had a more to her CE. Something giving a bonus to Hoth allies. Maybe along the lines of granting Extra Attack or +4 to Attack and +10 to damage. That might give you a reason to finally play Han of Hoth over other Hans. Of course the CE would only effect 8 minis. While not a lot, you could at least build another squad archetype. I think there would be some potential with a Hoth heroes squad with Luke, Han, Chewie, Leia and some Hoth non-uniques.

So while I would like to see a Sep equivalent, I think the potential piece should offer more than just a Leia-like CE. That's one reason she doesn't see as much play. Her only role is based upon a high save of 16. Plus the Rebel faction is not known for it's non-uniques. That faction is based on the unique heroes.


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 Post subject: Re: Does Yobuck/Lancer need a counter?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:03 am 
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FlyingArrow wrote:
I'm not saying they need to be tier 1 (though that might be nice), or even "competitive" with anti-swarm pieces. They should still lose to Yobuck in general (just like Vong will generally beat a Rebel Push squad, or an Evade/SSM heavy squad will generally beat a shooter-heavy squad). What it shouldn't be is an auto-loss like it is now - where half of a squad can be wiped out in one activation. That's not even a game worth playing. I'm just arguing for playability - not tier 1.


A squad can easily be designed within your parameters that is not an auto loss now. It's just bad squad design and biased comparisons.

Losing 10 Stormtroopers in one activation to Kybuck is no different from losing your 50 point beat in one activation to Cad Bane or Mara Jade.

Add some bodyguards and Diplomats for starters and mix in characters with more HP. And then play it against a Kybuck squad that isn't tricked out with all the Tier 1 support.

Like it or not 40 Stormtroopers is a crappy squad as is 35 Stormtroopers and one commander. But a squad with 10 Stormtroopers is entirely "playable" (ie not an auto loss) vs a Kybuck or Lancer squad that's sub-Tier 1.

(Beyond that, I'm not sure why running a dozen of the same figure is such a popular or desirable litmus test for good gameplay balance. And this is coming from someone who does it quite frequently.)

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 Post subject: Re: Does Yobuck/Lancer need a counter?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:49 am 
Jedi Knight
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Agree the Ng'ok is a decent new counter option, one that fits neatly into Lobot's reinforcements. Can a wall of diplomats slow down Yobuck, or is that impractical?


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 Post subject: Re: Does Yobuck/Lancer need a counter?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:29 am 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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NickName wrote:
(Beyond that, I'm not sure why running a dozen of the same figure is such a popular or desirable litmus test for good gameplay balance. And this is coming from someone who does it quite frequently.)


It's because it's something common in the Star Wars story. Look at the movies... a bunch of stormtroopers and rebel troopers on Tantive IV. A bunch of jawas and tusken raiders on Tatooine. Troopers defending echo base. Stormtroopers on Cloud City. Gamorreans and Nikto grunts as guards for Jabba. Ewoks on Endor. Battle droids versus Gungans. Clones versus droids. Large groups of fighters is a common theme in Star Wars. Why shouldn't they be viable?


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 Post subject: Re: Does Yobuck/Lancer need a counter?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:49 am 
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FlyingArrow wrote:
What it shouldn't be is an auto-loss like it is now - where half of a squad can be wiped out in one activation. That's not even a game worth playing. I'm just arguing for playability - not tier 1.


IMO, this is not a problem with piece design, or the need for new abilities. It sounds like a problem with how you're playing your games.

If you run a swarm, and you end up facing a Yobuck, then you need to use different tactics. Spread out more. If you run the squad properly, you should be able to make it so that Yobuck can't get to your entire squad in one round. He may get a fair number of them, but if he's killing all your swarm pieces by the 2nd round, than you aren't playing it right.

And like several other people have pointed out, asking for Troopers (or swarms of any sort) to be viable now against the Yobuck/Lancer meta is kind of a silly argument, as those squads have never been viable previously. It's not like Yobuck/Lancer suddenly made them unplayable. Honestly, the only 'swarm' type squad I can ever remember being even Tier 2 was Aqualish Assassin Swarms, or possibly Troopers with Vader IC. Outside of that, no other ones were ever any good.

So, honestly, this is more of a problem with the overall game, and not just a Yobuck/Lancer specific thing. Sure, Yobuck/Lancer are the primary thing right now that keeps them out of contention. But even without that, the primary problems with Troopers have always been things like: low attack bonus, lack of accurate shot, lack of damage, lack of defense score, no mobility, etc.

So, IMO, there's a whole slew of problems beyond just Yobuck/Lancer that have to be addressed in order to make swarms playable. Honestly, I think it really comes down to the basic design of the game. WOTC never wanted swarm squads to be competitive, so the game simply isn't designed that way. The game is designed to use a myriad of characters/figures together, and in particular, is designed to be focused around the major characters of the Star Wars franchise, not just a bunch of troopers/beasts/odd aliens.

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