logo

All times are UTC - 6 hours

Mark forums read


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 39 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Virtual Sets: Please, avoid the disruptive special ability!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:02 pm 
Unnamed Wookiee
Unnamed Wookiee

Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 5:25 pm
Posts: 37
Location: Atlanta SWM
I think the biggest mistake V-sets could make is excessive use of the disruptive ability (i.e. access to cheap disruptive for all factions)

1. I think disruptive discourages the use of the commander effect mechanic, which is a huge part of the fun of the game. A buddy recently mentioned that one of the benefits of his competitive squad was it's minimal use commander effects in light of opponents using disruptive. Is that the direction we want for this game? I think the creative reliance on commander effects should be key especially at the top tier.

2. I don't think the disruptive ability is particularly fun. Running Juno/Madine within 6 of your opponent to nerf their commander effect is not that interesting. (Now, I do admit that disruptive on KKBM is kinda cool and fitting for the piece.)

3. Excessive disruptive will decrease the uniqueness of the factions. Part of the distinctness of to NR is that they can field a powerhouse melee piece with disruptive (KKBM) yet most other factions can't. Also, rebels are the only faction with cheap disruptive. I think that is good for defining the factions.

4. Excessive disruption will decrease the uniques of the squads. Do we really want disruptive to be a common component to every squad/game? Personally, I hope not.

An obvious response may be: It's not fair that some factions have disruptive and others don't. I absolutely agree with this statement. But the lack of disruptive for a faction can be compensated in other ways (unique special abilites, commander effects, etc.).

Another possible response: We now have cheap override for all factions, and that has improved the game. Agreed, but override doesn't discourage or nerf commander effects to the extent that disruptive does.

To summarize: This one ability that nerfs all commander effects is excessively powerful, and not particularly fun, therefore it should be used very sparingly. Am I right or wrong? What's your opinion? I hope one of you SWM veterans/designers could comment on this. Thanks!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Virtual Sets: Please, avoid the disruptive special ability!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:46 am 
Really Cool Alien from a Cantina
Really Cool Alien from a Cantina
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 14, 2009 3:58 pm
Posts: 198
Location: Lurking on forums
Agreed Disruption takes more away from the game than it adds. A squad goes from a piece of art to kill the guy with Disruption, lame.

I also suggest holding back on reserves at least for time play. Sitting around for a player to pick out his pieces is just time consuming and takes away some of the point in building a squad. This comes partly from my dislike of magic's side broad. Were play have 15 card they can swap in their decks, mostly to cover up bad match ups. If a squad/deck have a bad match up then deal with it or make a new squad.

Basic both of these take away form squad building. IMO


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Virtual Sets: Please, avoid the disruptive special ability!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:27 am 
Hall of Fame Member
Hall of Fame Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:22 pm
Posts: 4982
your point is well taken. Excessive disruptive given out without much thought to it will hamper the game badly but i don't think its fair to say it doesn't add anything. Commander effects can get pretty ridiculous and the excessive synergies, while fun to play, can be as annoying to face as disruptive. Disruptive is the great equalizer and it has its place and forced the squad builder to balance his force so as not to rely on one factor (uber synergy). Finding uber synergy in this game is not difficult but finding uber synergy that works in the the rock paper scissors enviroment created by the designers is difficult and should remain so. Disruptive isn't going anywhere and whereas its introduction will be carefully measured i think its fair to say we can expect more of it.

However, there is a strong precedence for which factions should have it.
Essentially, rebels and NR are the disruptive factions and the rest really don't have it and probably shouldn't have it. The only faction that i feel should get it is the old republic because A) the probably need it B) their use (long historied use) of battle meditation is probably the best representation of force powered disruptive in the universe. There is an argument for the seperatists and possibly Sith but it would need to be a special case.

for the factions
republic - these guys should never see it. Its not their style. The republic don't disrupt, they overwhelm with speed and power. Their goal is just to be better at everything else than everyone else. They should also never get tempo control because their tactics are much more in your face.
Imperials - they should never see cheap disruptive either. They are all about imperial might; strong troops and uniques backed by the most devious minds in the galaxy. Their path to winning is like the republic, and thats just to be better that the opponenets, disruptive or no.
Seperatists - Droid might with infiltrating uniques. This faction could arguably get disruptive but is would not be cheap and would probably force the squad builder into choosing a unique centered build based on infiltration and stealth (kind of an assajj/dooko or maul build)
rebels and NR - they have disruptive and lots of it. It fits their guerilla style of attack and defence. No need to give them more but it probably wouldn't hurt them.
Sith - Huge force powers. Overwhelm with might and muscle, although the rule of 2 forced the Sith to utilize deception, guile and cunning to best their foes. Does deception, subderfuge and guile equal disruptive? Possibly but i don't think thats where the focus of this faction should go towards. They need cheaper pieces with the power of Bane. Sith should be feared for what they can do to you, not what they stop you doing.
Vong - the terrorist faction. Wouldn't be out of place with disruptive but they should be more about hard to kill dirty animals that spit, hide and explode with some serious undercosted tanks. The faction has a great feel, it just needs fleshing out.
Mandos - Firepower, all the way. They don't care for disruptive because they are too busy shooting you to pieces.
OR This faction has the least personality of all. It struggles with average force users and oddly costed guns. They should be all about force powers to control the battle field and that includes disrupting the enemy while boosting themselves. They have some strength from MotF but they need the most work. I would not be against seeing disruptive in this faction.
fringe No need to add disruptive here. If it does get in, it would be costed like Nym. Very hard to build in and expensive.

_________________
Image
Image


Last edited by fingersandteeth on Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Virtual Sets: Please, avoid the disruptive special ability!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:36 am 
Master of the Order
Master of the Order
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 2:46 pm
Posts: 7960
Location: West Chester, OH (near Cincinnati)
ndjarnag wrote:
I think the biggest mistake V-sets could make is excessive use of the disruptive ability (i.e. access to cheap disruptive for all factions)

1. I think disruptive discourages the use of the commander effect mechanic, which is a huge part of the fun of the game. A buddy recently mentioned that one of the benefits of his competitive squad was it's minimal use commander effects in light of opponents using disruptive. Is that the direction we want for this game? I think the creative reliance on commander effects should be key especially at the top tier.


I wonder how long you have been playing this game? Disruptive was introduced specifically because CEs in the game had become too powerful, and squads had become nearly 100% dependent on CEs. I think the fact that Disruptive exists right now, and that people have to build with it in mind is a perfectly great place for the game to be. Sometimes, as you pointed out with your friend, people will build squads with minimal CEs so they don't have to worry about Disruptive. Sometimes, you still build with several CEs, but you make sure you have a way to deal with the Disruptive piece. Like any mechanic in the game, if you take away one thing, something else will rise to the top.

Now, I would agree that we don't want to throw Disruptive around so willy-nilly that it makes running CEs completely useless. And honestly, I really don't think that will ever happen. I don't necessarily want to see a cheap Fringe Disruptive piece, but several factions desperately need access to Disruptive in order to compete. The Separatists, Sith, OR, Mando, and Vong in particular would all benefit nicely.

ndjarnag wrote:
2. I don't think the disruptive ability is particularly fun. Running Juno/Madine within 6 of your opponent to nerf their commander effect is not that interesting. (Now, I do admit that disruptive on KKBM is kinda cool and fitting for the piece.)


I'm not trying to be snotty or anything, but frankly, what you consider fun is different from what other people consider fun, and should not be a factor at all in designing new pieces/stats. People who are only interested in what's fun will just play whatever they decide they want to play. If you and your play group decide that Juno/Madine is 'not fun', then just have a gentleman's agreement that no one will play them. Honestly, I think part of the 'fun' is in figuring out how to beat those pieces. KKJBM is a tough SOB to take down, but Juno or Madine? Come on. If you can't figure out how to kill them easily, then you have more to worry about than just what is or isn't fun.

ndjarnag wrote:
3. Excessive disruptive will decrease the uniqueness of the factions. Part of the distinctness of to NR is that they can field a powerhouse melee piece with disruptive (KKBM) yet most other factions can't. Also, rebels are the only faction with cheap disruptive. I think that is good for defining the factions.


I agree that factions should be individual. But just adding Disruptive wouldn't necessarily change that. Override used to be limited to just Rebels and Republic. Did the addition of Lobot, T3, or the R7 upset that? No. It's just a game mechanic. If Disruptive is added to the right pieces, and used in the appropriate ways, then it shouldn't disrupt how the factions work at all.

ndjarnag wrote:
4. Excessive disruption will decrease the uniques of the squads. Do we really want disruptive to be a common component to every squad/game? Personally, I hope not.


Is Disruptive used in every single squad that it could possibly be used in now? No. At least 2 of the 4 Snowspeeder squads in the Top 8 at GenCon last year did not have any Disruptive. Yes, they could have run Juno, and many other SS builds did include her. But she wasn't an 'auto-include' as your inferring here. Disruptive pieces like Juno are perfect, IMO. They are kind of like Wicket. Weak enough that they'll only survive 1-2 key rounds, so you have to be very careful with how you utilize them. If we get a Fringe Disruptive piece in a similar vein to that, then it shouldn't be a problem at all for the game. Or, the better methodology, might be to give Disruptive to specific Unique characters within some of the other factions, therefore forcing people to make squad building decisions about whether they want the version of the Unique with Disruptive, or the version with some other suite of abilities.


ndjarnag wrote:
To summarize: This one ability that nerfs all commander effects is excessively powerful, and not particularly fun, therefore it should be used very sparingly. Am I right or wrong? What's your opinion? I hope one of you SWM veterans/designers could comment on this. Thanks!


If you really feel like Disruptive is too strong, then I highly suggest you work on learning how to beat it, rather than worry about more pieces being introduced with the ability. Whether or not more Disruptive is introduced to the game, is pretty likely that Juno, Madine, and Kyle JBM/CI are here to stay, and they are all solid pieces which will continue to see play in just about any Meta, IMO. So, you may as well work on learning how to beat those. Once you learn how to work around the problems of Disruptive, then I think you'll realize that adding some more Disruptive pieces to the game wouldn't really hurt things as much as you think it will.

Darth Muerte wrote:
I also suggest holding back on reserves at least for time play. Sitting around for a player to pick out his pieces is just time consuming and takes away some of the point in building a squad. This comes partly from my dislike of magic's side broad. Were play have 15 card they can swap in their decks, mostly to cover up bad match ups. If a squad/deck have a bad match up then deal with it or make a new squad.


Total side note here, but this has absolutely NOTHING to do with design of pieces. Running a piece with Reserves means the player should have things set aside already that they intend to use for Reserves, and not have to go rummaging through their storage case when they roll that magical init number. I'll be judging the Cincinnati Regionals, and I can guarantee that if anyone shows up with a Reserves squad, and takes too much time picking their pieces, they will get a slow play warning. There's honestly no excuse. You take 30 minutes sometime earlier in the week to write down about 5-10 combinations of your points. For instance, if I'm running Lobot CLO, I might write down a list like this:

Dash RS
Twi'lek BSV + Human BG
R7 + Human BG + Mouse Droid x2 + Ugo x2

Whenever I go to GenCon or other large events, I create an entire separate squad box of just reserves pieces. You have to be able to quickly select the pieces and keep the game moving.

_________________
-Aaron
Mand'alor
"You either die a hero, or you live to see yourself become the villain."
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Virtual Sets: Please, avoid the disruptive special ability!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:11 am 
Really Cool Alien from a Cantina
Really Cool Alien from a Cantina
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 14, 2009 3:58 pm
Posts: 198
Location: Lurking on forums
LoboStele wrote:
Darth Muerte wrote:
I also suggest holding back on reserves at least for time play. Sitting around for a player to pick out his pieces is just time consuming and takes away some of the point in building a squad. This comes partly from my dislike of magic's side broad. Were play have 15 card they can swap in their decks, mostly to cover up bad match ups. If a squad/deck have a bad match up then deal with it or make a new squad.


Total side note here, but this has absolutely NOTHING to do with design of pieces. Running a piece with Reserves means the player should have things set aside already that they intend to use for Reserves, and not have to go rummaging through their storage case when they roll that magical init number. I'll be judging the Cincinnati Regionals, and I can guarantee that if anyone shows up with a Reserves squad, and takes too much time picking their pieces, they will get a slow play warning. There's honestly no excuse. You take 30 minutes sometime earlier in the week to write down about 5-10 combinations of your points. For instance, if I'm running Lobot CLO, I might write down a list like this:

Dash RS
Twi'lek BSV + Human BG
R7 + Human BG + Mouse Droid x2 + Ugo x2

Whenever I go to GenCon or other large events, I create an entire separate squad box of just reserves pieces. You have to be able to quickly select the pieces and keep the game moving.


My bad I mean Reinforcements, classic mistake. Reserves is fine.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Virtual Sets: Please, avoid the disruptive special ability!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:13 am 
Hall of Fame Member
Hall of Fame Member

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:43 am
Posts: 1163
Location: Fremont, CA
I think there are some situations where certain factions really need a way to deal with some types of CEs. Giving them Disruptive on the right character at the right cost would be a net positive for them. Of course, there's the possibility now to brainstorm among a bunch of people for more creative solutions now but if Disruptive is the simplest option, fits the faction need, the character, and is priced so it's not an "auto-include" I'm all for it.

_________________


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Virtual Sets: Please, avoid the disruptive special ability!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:34 am 
Dark Lord of the Sith
Dark Lord of the Sith
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:38 am
Posts: 1959
I think one way to give all factions an anti CE is something like this
Deans Idea
Jamming communications:If this Character has line of sight to a Commander or a mouse droid the Commander Effect is Jammed untill they move out of line of sight of this character or until this character is defeated. It might have to be only ranged CE'.

It needs some reworking but I like the idea as a whole.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Virtual Sets: Please, avoid the disruptive special ability!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:43 am 
Droid Army Commander
Droid Army Commander
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:57 am
Posts: 1450
Location: Morris, MN
jonnyb815 wrote:
I think one way to give all factions an anti CE is something like this
Deans Idea
Jamming communications:If this Character has line of sight to a Commander or a mouse droid the Commander Effect is Jammed untill they move out of line of sight of this character or until this character is defeated. It might have to be only ranged CE'.

It needs some reworking but I like the idea as a whole.


Nice idea except Republic squads are immune thanks to Mas Ameda. All they have to do is hide their commanders like Yularen in a corner.

_________________
Image

Aliit ori'shya tal'din ("Family is more than Blood")
To learn Mandalorian, go to http://www.karentraviss.com/html/mando.htm.

Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Virtual Sets: Please, avoid the disruptive special ability!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:45 am 
Master of the Order
Master of the Order
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 2:46 pm
Posts: 7960
Location: West Chester, OH (near Cincinnati)
Darth Muerte wrote:
My bad I mean Reinforcements, classic mistake. Reserves is fine.


Same thing. Should have several options set aside to start with, and should take no longer than a minute to determine what pieces to use.

_________________
-Aaron
Mand'alor
"You either die a hero, or you live to see yourself become the villain."
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Virtual Sets: Please, avoid the disruptive special ability!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:50 am 
Dark Lord of the Sith
Dark Lord of the Sith
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:38 am
Posts: 1959
no BV still makes it a ranged CE its just a boardwide CE not within 6. If you make it on all CEs i dont see how it wouldnt work on the republic.you would reword it so it works on mas too. It would be a droid so now swaping it in.

Reserves/rein well i have a box will all my cards and another box with the minis its really not that hard to pull something. If I am playing Kazdan or Clobot. I make a droid and Clobot box before I go to a tournament so its easy to get at.

I


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Virtual Sets: Please, avoid the disruptive special ability!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:59 am 
Hall of Fame Member
Hall of Fame Member

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:43 am
Posts: 1163
Location: Fremont, CA
He's saying it's useless against Republic because you'll never get LOS on a commander that gets to hide in the start squares and use Mas to boom his CE boardwide.

_________________


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Virtual Sets: Please, avoid the disruptive special ability!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:10 am 
Name Calling Internet Bully
Name Calling Internet Bully
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:10 pm
Posts: 6172
Location: Gurnee, IL
I believe Old Republic should get disruptive, and that's probably the only faction. And it should be limited, and powerful.

Call it "Force Disruptive" or "Battle Meditation 2". Where it is a force power, on a unique (like a new Bastilla), and must be used at the start of the round and force points spent on it. Because it's a force power, it can be more powerful than basic disruptive, and be useless against force immunity. It maintains uniqueness of the faction (only faction with such an idea) and in turn powers the Vong and old Thrawn.

Force Disruption or Battle Meditation 2 - (On a character with force renewal 1) 2 force, replaces attacks - for the remainder of this round enemy characters within 12 squares are considered disrupted.

I'm also in favor of seeing a character (maybe mid 20s OR jedi) that can target one enemy commander in los and shut down his/her CE that round.

Now, as I said, I don't think the other factions should get disruptive, but if there are other new abilities that fit, so be it. Personally, I'm pretty sure the design team is more creative than just handing out abilities randomly hoping that if everyone has everything the game will balance itself (cause it most certainly would not). But when you do things creatively, and with faction feel and authenticity in mind, there are plenty of good ideas that can help. I was never a fan of handing out override cheaply to every faction - and while some might argue it has helped, I will also point you to the fact that all that it has really done is force every squad to use at least 8pts on an override piece. It's not that it wasn't like that before, I understand that, but giving it to everyone didn't balance the game any more than before, it simply made it easier to abuse, which in turn forced every competitive squad to include it or face major issues. Not a huge deal because it's cheap, but just a point against giving out everything powerful to everyone. Keep the factions unique as much as possible within reason.

I very much like Deri's explanation of the factions breakdown on disruptive, and that's why I trust he and the other designers to deal with V-sets completely. Keep the feel, don't just give every faction disruptive and activation control (because doing so doesn't in any way balance the game the way some posters claim it would anyways) and be creative about what to add to flesh them out. The problems with the minor factions are not the pieces themselves, it's generally about poor execution of uniques (generally speaking, but the factions with low numbers of pieces are seen as getting affected the most even though the percentages of bad uniques are the same), and by simply a lack of options creating strong enough synergies. There are some great options in Sith, OR, Vong and Mandos, and plenty that are either Tier 1 or darn close as it is. They just need more options and support. WotC for legitimate reasons was never able to do so properly, but we can (since we don't have to sell anything).

_________________
Image

http://www.bloomilk.com/Squads/Search.aspx?UserID=29


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Virtual Sets: Please, avoid the disruptive special ability!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:35 am 
Hall of Fame Member
Hall of Fame Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:22 pm
Posts: 4982
Billiv15 wrote:
I believe Old Republic should get disruptive, and that's probably the only faction. And it should be limited, and powerful.

Call it "Force Disruptive" or "Battle Meditation 2". Where it is a force power, on a unique (like a new Bastilla), and must be used at the start of the round and force points spent on it. Because it's a force power, it can be more powerful than basic disruptive, and be useless against force immunity. It maintains uniqueness of the faction (only faction with such an idea) and in turn powers the Vong and old Thrawn.

Force Disruption or Battle Meditation 2 - (On a character with force renewal 1) 2 force, replaces attacks - for the remainder of this round enemy characters within 12 squares are considered disrupted.

I'm also in favor of seeing a character (maybe mid 20s OR jedi) that can target one enemy commander in los and shut down his/her CE that round.


You are thinking along the same lines as me. I want to see battle meditation be as powerful as it should be and i believe it should be an OR characteristic. They certainly suffer through a lack of great CE's so giving them something to level the playing field should be a top priority IMO.

Quote:
Now, as I said, I don't think the other factions should get disruptive, but if there are other new abilities that fit, so be it.

But when you do things creatively, and with faction feel and authenticity in mind, there are plenty of good ideas that can help.

Keep the factions unique as much as possible within reason.

The problems with the minor factions are not the pieces themselves, it's generally about poor execution of uniques (generally speaking, but the factions with low numbers of pieces are seen as getting affected the most even though the percentages of bad uniques are the same), and by simply a lack of options creating strong enough synergies. There are some great options in Sith, OR, Vong and Mandos, and plenty that are either Tier 1 or darn close as it is. They just need more options and support. WotC for legitimate reasons was never able to do so properly, but we can (since we don't have to sell anything).


Some of the other points in the post that i strongly agree with.

As i see it, the V sets should balance the game, lavish as much SW flavor onto the game as possible while preserving the factions for what they represent.

_________________
Image
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Virtual Sets: Please, avoid the disruptive special ability!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:18 pm 
Grand Admiral
Grand Admiral
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:34 pm
Posts: 898
Location: Tracy, CA
billiv15 wrote:
I believe Old Republic should get disruptive, and that's probably the only faction. And it should be limited, and powerful.

Call it "Force Disruptive" or "Battle Meditation 2". Where it is a force power, on a unique (like a new Bastilla), and must be used at the start of the round and force points spent on it. Because it's a force power, it can be more powerful than basic disruptive, and be useless against force immunity. It maintains uniqueness of the faction (only faction with such an idea) and in turn powers the Vong and old Thrawn.

Force Disruption or Battle Meditation 2 - (On a character with force renewal 1) 2 force, replaces attacks - for the remainder of this round enemy characters within 12 squares are considered disrupted.

I'm also in favor of seeing a character (maybe mid 20s OR jedi) that can target one enemy commander in los and shut down his/her CE that round.

Now, as I said, I don't think the other factions should get disruptive, but if there are other new abilities that fit, so be it. Personally, I'm pretty sure the design team is more creative than just handing out abilities randomly hoping that if everyone has everything the game will balance itself (cause it most certainly would not). But when you do things creatively, and with faction feel and authenticity in mind, there are plenty of good ideas that can help. I was never a fan of handing out override cheaply to every faction - and while some might argue it has helped, I will also point you to the fact that all that it has really done is force every squad to use at least 8pts on an override piece. It's not that it wasn't like that before, I understand that, but giving it to everyone didn't balance the game any more than before, it simply made it easier to abuse, which in turn forced every competitive squad to include it or face major issues. Not a huge deal because it's cheap, but just a point against giving out everything powerful to everyone. Keep the factions unique as much as possible within reason.

I very much like Deri's explanation of the factions breakdown on disruptive, and that's why I trust he and the other designers to deal with V-sets completely. Keep the feel, don't just give every faction disruptive and activation control (because doing so doesn't in any way balance the game the way some posters claim it would anyways) and be creative about what to add to flesh them out. The problems with the minor factions are not the pieces themselves, it's generally about poor execution of uniques (generally speaking, but the factions with low numbers of pieces are seen as getting affected the most even though the percentages of bad uniques are the same), and by simply a lack of options creating strong enough synergies. There are some great options in Sith, OR, Vong and Mandos, and plenty that are either Tier 1 or darn close as it is. They just need more options and support. WotC for legitimate reasons was never able to do so properly, but we can (since we don't have to sell anything).


Not to sound like a fanboy here, but I think Zayne would fit that role perfectly for the OR (a redone version of him). I was somewhat surprised he didn't have Disruptive when his stats were released. Probably due to him being a cheaper Fringe piece, I'm guessing. You could easily cost him in the 20-30 range like his KotOR version. I know this probably isn't the proper thread, but your post did stir up some thought on the matter (as to which OR character or characters should have Disruptive).


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Virtual Sets: Please, avoid the disruptive special ability!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:38 pm 
Really Cool Alien from a Cantina
Really Cool Alien from a Cantina

Joined: Thu May 21, 2009 8:17 pm
Posts: 186
ndjarnag wrote:
A buddy recently mentioned that one of the benefits of his competitive squad was it's minimal use commander effects in light of opponents using disruptive. Is that the direction we want for this game? I think the creative reliance on commander effects should be key especially at the top tier.


That buddy was me. The squad in question was swapbuck, which is kind of built entirely around one of the most useful CE's around. Does it annoy me sometimes that my opponent cannily made my life difficult with disruptive? Yes. But I think we need more of it, not less.

Honestly I want Juno Eclipse for everyone. Every single faction should have access to one cheap, weak piece with disruptive. In the current meta, with its focus on CEs and layered CEs (Rieeken plus TBSV), disruptive being limited to two (already good) factions makes about as much sense as override being limited to Rebels and Republic for so long.

LoboStele wrote:
Disruptive pieces like Juno are perfect, IMO. They are kind of like Wicket. Weak enough that they'll only survive 1-2 key rounds, so you have to be very careful with how you utilize them. If we get a Fringe Disruptive piece in a similar vein to that, then it shouldn't be a problem at all for the game. Or, the better methodology, might be to give Disruptive to specific Unique characters within some of the other factions, therefore forcing people to make squad building decisions about whether they want the version of the Unique with Disruptive, or the version with some other suite of abilities.


Agree very much. Right now I think most of game's power creep is due to the piling on of better and better CEs. More disruptive in the meta, in any form, should help push back against that tendency. It also provides an incentive to play skillfully, which seems like a good thing!

_________________
Image
GMB from ATL


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Virtual Sets: Please, avoid the disruptive special ability!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:18 pm 
Black Sun Thug
Black Sun Thug
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 7:08 pm
Posts: 63
What if we were to make a communications jammer not completely disrupt a commander effect, but rather limit it? Also, I'd suggest maybe putting an element of risk on it to use.

Communications Jammer: Replaces attacks, targeted enemy's commander effects's range is limited to adjacent, and targeted enemy may only benefit from commander effects from adjacent commanders, until this character is defeated, changes location, or activates again.

He can shut down a commander he can see, or shut down someone receiving a board-wide effect (unless adjacent to the source), but at the same time his piece has to be in LOS to do so, which means an opponent's accurate shooter can target him right back.

_________________
Nietzsche says, "God is dead." God says, "Nietzsche is dead."
Best D&D Rules Ever: Moldvay Basic/Cook & Marsh Expert
Best D&D Campaign Setting Ever: Ravenloft
Proud Member of: Knights of Columbus (4th Degree) and Triangle Fraternity /T\ (MSOE Chapter)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Virtual Sets: Please, avoid the disruptive special ability!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:35 pm 
Unnamed Wookiee
Unnamed Wookiee

Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 5:25 pm
Posts: 37
Location: Atlanta SWM
billiv15 wrote:
I very much like Deri's explanation of the factions breakdown on disruptive, and that's why I trust he and the other designers to deal with V-sets completely. Keep the feel, don't just give every faction disruptive and activation control (because doing so doesn't in any way balance the game the way some posters claim it would anyways) and be creative about what to add to flesh them out.


Exactly. After reading his post I'm confident it will be handled very well and better than I could do it. :) In fact, uber disruptive on a old republic piece would be interesting.

Perhaps my original post was too strong. Disruptive is a necessary mechanic that does fit with some pieces/factions. But for those that support "fringe juno", ask what benefits does "fringe juno" provide that couldn't be accomplished in a more creative and fun way.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Virtual Sets: Please, avoid the disruptive special ability!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:33 am 
Master of the Order
Master of the Order
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 2:46 pm
Posts: 7960
Location: West Chester, OH (near Cincinnati)
ndjarnag wrote:
what benefits does "fringe juno" provide that couldn't be accomplished in a more creative and fun way.


Bingo!!

I think this is a key point that the WOTC team lost sight of, and I hope our Vset team can accomplish.

_________________
-Aaron
Mand'alor
"You either die a hero, or you live to see yourself become the villain."
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Virtual Sets: Please, avoid the disruptive special ability!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:00 pm 
Death Star Designers
Death Star Designers
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:45 pm
Posts: 3886
I like a Jedi Battlemeditation that grants Distruptive. Very fitting to the lore.

And OR has always been sort of a weaker counter faction then Rebels. Good pieces with Force Sense/It's a Trap, Force Defense, and even a way to completely kill the ability to use the Force. I think boosting the OR with more counter stuff, like NTMTO or Disruptive, on big Jedi, is the way to go.

_________________
Bloomilk Ambassador


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Virtual Sets: Please, avoid the disruptive special ability!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:36 pm 
Jedi Knight
Jedi Knight
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:23 pm
Posts: 358
greentime wrote:
ndjarnag wrote:
A buddy recently mentioned that one of the benefits of his competitive squad was it's minimal use commander effects in light of opponents using disruptive. Is that the direction we want for this game? I think the creative reliance on commander effects should be key especially at the top tier.


That buddy was me. The squad in question was swapbuck, which is kind of built entirely around one of the most useful CE's around. Does it annoy me sometimes that my opponent cannily made my life difficult with disruptive? Yes. But I think we need more of it, not less.


I'm fairly inexperienced at this game, but I thought that a Yobuck swap squad, although perhaps only relying on one CE, it still RELIES on a CE. I thought the entire dynamic of that squad is to swap Yobuck in and out. So while only using one CE, the entire tactics employed by this squad would be destroyed without it. For me a squad that does not rely heavily on CEs would be one where losing the commander would not necessitate a complete re-think of my strategy.

Er, I am not having a go or anything. I just know I would be pretty crestfallen if I field my Yobuck swappers and then my opponent plonks KKJBM down. Even if it only relies on one CE.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 39 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours

Mark forums read

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Jedi Knights style by Scott Stubblefield