TreebeardTheEnt wrote:
jonnyb815 wrote:
@walter
Counter punch
1. When an enemy attacks you can make a aoo vs that enemy as a reaction to the attack when your FD.
2. IF your FD and move pass someone giving up an aoo you can attack them as a reaction to the aoo attack.
3. If you attack them and they some how can make a attack as a reaction.If your fighting defensive and have not made a aoo during the round you could use counter punch to attack back.
The key is that they have to attack you first and your fighting defensive.YOU CAN ONLY MAKE ONE AOO PER ROUND unless you have combat reflexes. Melee defensive does not count as Fighting Defensive.
Jonny the Bold Italicized is a reversal of what you told me in PM. This is one of the biggest issues you have as a GM saying one thing one time, and then changing it later. This change, intentional or unintentional, is very aggravating because I asked you about this weeks ago when I was planing out the character, and now that I have take the talent (4 levels, and six weeks later) you are changing the rules so that the talent becomes worthless to me.
Why would a character that has Melee Defense ever use Fighting Defensavely when they are going to attack? Taking a -5 atk to get a +2 def when you can take a -2 atk for a +2 defense makes no sense. And why do you no longer consider Melee
Defense a form of Fighting
Defensavely? If you want to have the argument again we can, but I am about done with the back and forth stang. Also, if you are no longer the GM why are you changing the rules?
I dont know where you got that MD counted as FD.
I am sorry if you misunderstand how that worked. If you look back on the pms and page six you will see that i said it would not work. I am sorry how all of this has came out. All I want is for you to understand my reason and fun playing your character.
Here is the forum that helped me figure out the difference of the two.
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/ ... stion?pg=1This is what i said in pms and there is more on page six of this thread. I dont know where I said MD counts as FD.
PM ok so I made FD work like MD but they are not the samething.
Jonny
PM You might be on to something. I will look on the forums and get back to you.
As a real life thing it makes sense but WOTC messed up the rules for FD to death.
Ill get back to you.
Johnny,
I know that you are much better acquainted with the rules than I am, and I want to understand your Defensive Fighting decision for the next time I GM. I am not asking you to change your mind, just looking to understand the possible abuses of allowing a player to take a -1 atk for a +1 def and consider it FD. What abilities can be abused / how will it affect the game? If you don't want to take the time to explain I understand, but I wanted to ask.
Thanks,
Walter
Jonny
PM I wanted FD to be a standard action but work alone.If you dont want to make an attack you could get an extra bonus. The attack with FD is more like a free action.
Melee Defense you have to attack to get the bonus no matter what and you can pick how big you want the bonus to be.
ok so I made FD work like MD but they are not the same thing.
Jonny
PM So if i have to reword FD to work like how I want it to thats fine. MD and FD are two different types of abilities.
So you cant use MD as FD sorry
Jonny
Page six
Rules question: does using the Mêlée Defense feat count as fighting defensively? It did in the d20 rules, but it is not clear in the SAGA rules.
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Jonnyb
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Fight defensively takes a standard action and how they have it written you cant even attack during that turn unless its a aoo,reaction attack or a bonus turn before your next turn.
This is how it should be written
Fight defensively should be you can use a standard action to fight defensively if you make an attack during this turn,you can take a -5 on your attack rolls and gain a +2 dodge bonus to your Reflex Defense till the start of your next turn and if you dont make any attacks even aoos its a +5 ref bonus
If you have Acrob its a +5 if you attack and +10 if you dont make an attack
This is not how they wrote it though.I might make a house rule to fix the problem wizards made but I still dont know though.
Melee Defense you have to make a melee attack to get the bonus to your def and you can chose the bonus up to +5 Max. So the max bonus you would get from MD is -5 attack and +5 def.
(Fight Defensively and Melee Defense is a dodge bonus so if your unaware or flat footed it wont work,or attacked by a hidden attacker)
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jonnyb815 wrote:
Fight defensively takes a standard action and how they have it written you cant even attack during that turn unless its a aoo,reaction attack or a bonus turn before your next turn.
This is how it should be written
Fight defensively should be you can use a standard action to fight defensively if you make an attack during this turn,you can take a -5 on your attack rolls and gain a +2 dodge bonus to your Reflex Defense till the start of your next turn and if you dont make any attacks even aoos its a +5 ref bonus
If you have Acrob its a +5 if you attack and +10 if you dont make an attack
This is not how they wrote it though.I might make a house rule to fix the problem wizards made but I still dont know though.
Melee Defense you have to make a melee attack to get the bonus to your def and you can chose the bonus up to +5 Max. So the max bonus you would get from MD is -5 attack and +5 def.
(Fight Defensively and Melee Defense is a dodge bonus so if your unaware or flat footed it wont work,or attacked by a hidden attacker)
But on page 86 of the Core Rule Book under the Melee Defense feat it states "Normal: A character without the Melee Defense feat can fight defensively while using the attack action to take a -5 on his attack roll and gain a +2 dodge bonus to his Reflex Defense." I believe that the Fighting Defensively section on page 152 should have mirrored this wording (especially since that is how it worked in the old d20 rules, page 156 if you have the book). This sentence also implies that Melee defense replaces the fighting defensively action, meaning that it could be counted as the same action.
The reason I am asking is there is a talent that I am interested in taking, next time I get one, if Melee Defense counts as fighting defensively. Basically the talent makes adjacent attackers provoke an AOO when they attack you if you are fighting defensively. If Melee Defense counts for this talent I would take it, if it does not I will pick somthing else.
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We will house rule Fighting defensive but it will not count as Melee defense. They are a lot a like if you have the acrob skill but with Fighting defensive you have to take the -5 for +5. With Melee Defense it can go from -1 to +1, -2 to +2 so up to -5 for +5.
You will have to take Melee Defense if you want to be a MAM,Melee Dualist or
I think you have a feat and a Talent mixed up. Defensive Jab is for fight defensively and there is a feat that works with aoos (Hijkata Training)
Well this House Rule makes Unarmed Parry useful.
House rule
Fight defensively:
you can use a standard action to fight defensively
if you make an attack thats not an area attack, you can take a -5 on your attack rolls and gain a +2 dodge bonus to your Reflex Defense till the start of your next turn and if you dont make any attacks even aoos its a +5 ref bonus
If you have the Acrobatic skill its a +5 if you attack and if you dont make any attacks even aoos its a +10 bonus.
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Ok, but if I use my Melee Defense feat am I considered fighting defensively for the purposes of talents like the Brawler Counterpunch [S&V, p18]?
As for the fighting defensively combat option, I would suggest that it be two different action types. If you are using the full defense +5/+10 it should be a standard action, but if you are using the lesser option (-5/+2) I would suggest making it an attack option like it states on page 86. By making it an attack option, if someone takes Double/Triple Attack they can still use there feat(s) and fight defensively.
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No the book has Fight defensively as a standard action. All I am just trying to fix a oversight in the wording from WOTC. I am not trying to write a whole new action. I want to keep it simple and this is what I came up with.
No Melee Defense will not count as fighting defensive.
If I let you use Melee Defense count as fighting defensively then you could take a -1 for a +1 and it would count as FD.
I said no and I am not changing my mind.
Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2008 5:24 pm
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I missed that you said no. I am not trying to get you to change your mind, I was just making a suggestion. Sorry if I offended you.
In the books you cant attack if you want to use FD. I made a house rule that you could attack at a -5 ref when you are using FD but it would be a standard action. I worded it just like MD but said that MD would not count as FD in pms. It is my fault that it was never said in the house rule thread.
Bill we made a house rule so you could attack and fight defensively as a standard action. It was an oversight by WOTC in my eyes thats why we made the change.
Here is what is in the house rule thread about fighting defensively
*Fight defensively:
you can use a standard action to fight defensively
if you make an attack thats not an area attack, you can take a -5 on your attack rolls and gain a +2 dodge bonus to your Reflex Defense till the start of your next turn and if you dont make any attacks even aoos its a +5 ref bonus
Here is what Melee defensive is in the books
When you use a standard action to make a melee attack,you can take a penalty of up to -5 on your attack roll and add the same number(up to +5) as a dodge bonus to your reflex defense.This number may not exceeed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and Reflex Defense last until the start of your next turn.
I tried to word Fight defensively like Melee defensive. The reason Melee defensive does not work as Fight defensively is because you can pick what you want. This means you can get a -1 Def for a +1 and you could fight defensively.
Second reason is that the two are different abilities thats why I said they would not count and they both have to use a standard action. The only rule change I made was that you could attack and fight defensively in the same turn.
Fight defensively you dont have to attack to get the bonus and if you dont attack you can get a -5/+5. With Melee Defensive you can attack and still get the -5/+5. Melee defensive counting as Fight defensively is better in all most every way if it would work.
I am not changing the rules I am trying to get everyone on the same page so Gunnar does not get lost. He knows the basic Core rule book rules. He does not know what all the talents/feats do and I dont think he needs to know them. He will just take your word on it if it makes sense to him.
Here is what Pukunui said about Walters question on the boards
Question
For the purpose of talents like counterpunch, does using the Melee Defense feat count as fighting defensively?
answer
No. Melee Defense, while similar, is not the same thing as Fighting Defensively. In fact, since they both grant dodge bonuses, and dodge bonuses stack, then if you were to get a second standard action somehow, then you'd be able to use both together. The thing is, Melee Defense gives you a "free" benefit when you spend your standard action to make an attack, whereas Fighting Defensively is a standard action in its own right and, by RAW, you don't get an attack with it (when the text refers to making attacks while fighting defensively, it's referring to attacks of opportunity and the like). So it's an important distinction to make. If you want to benefit from something like Counterpunch or a riot shield, you have to take the actual Fighting Defensively action. You can't just use Melee Defense.