I have often thought of Mara, Jedi/Han, GH/JD/Lobot as one of the top squads with Gencon coming up. While it has a lot of potential, i cant help but think that this squad is a bit overrated in the competitive meta. Two of us ran this squad today. I ran it pretty much straight MTB, and AP ran it without lobot. We both finished 2-2 having not faced each other in an 8 man field. If it was such a good squad, i would have thought one of us would have either been 4-0 or 3-1, not 2-2.

I think its biggest problem is that it is too subject to bad rolls of the die, and any miss is just too costly in the build. Han has a very hard time hitting things. At best he is a 50/50 with cunning and worse without. Mara can do a lot of damage, but at the cost of being subject to the die and no reroll. With four attacks she is likely to miss the high octane Jedi running around (ya know the ones Han cant hit either).

Dont get me wrong its still a strong squad, but after today its viability in top tourneys (AKA - Gencon) is in serious question to me. Ill stick with San/Tyranus+something.

Han/Mara is very popular at my venue, @ 200 we see at least two squads a week with Han/Mara /Katarn. Today was our first 150 ever and we got 1 Han/Mara. It went 2-2 as well, while I went 4-0 play the New Hoopdie squad that Lobo posted. I didn't face Han and Mara today, but they did seem to have issues dealing some high defense. I have a feeling you'll see more Han/Boba BH builds for the NR than Han and Mara at gencon.

What squads did you face, SD13? I've had varying results with the Han/Mara/Lobot build as well, but the two times I've lost with it so far, were about 90% due to dice, and my inability to win one single key initiative. I absolutely slaughtered a couple squads with it though. It's certainly strong, but without any iniative control (i.e. when you are up against San or another Han GH) it starts to fall drastically short on damage potential.

I know what you are saying about Han having a hard time hitting Jedi. It seems whenever you need him to make a clutch shot he misses.

I had the same problem not long ago at 200 with the triple threat squad. (TR found Here )

I think one of the biggest advantages are the Special Abilites on Han GH. He gives the squad NTMTO, and disruptive, which are good abilites to have in todays meta.

If you cannot hit anything, play Wicket. That should do the trick usually. With General Dodonna it should be very possible to make sure that you outactivate your opponent, so you can deploy Wicket in the round before you make your move.

Except that the other key part of the 150 point Mara/Han squad is using the MTB, which if you bring the MTB and Wicket in with Lobot, now you are really short on activations, and won't have nearly enough to properly fuel the MTB engine. Mara should not need Wicket with her +16 attack. Personally, I haven't had THAT much trouble with Han's +14. Sure, the +10 is frustrating, but it's still better than Han Scoundrel's attack without Cunning, and people still play him like there's no tomorrow, right?

I had wicket in the original build, but if you are planning for the MTB you cant run him. You need the extra activation in splitting him (i did ug/Noble).

Squad 1 was Klecser on my temple (in hind sight the ruined base would have been better) who ran: Yoda of Dagobah, VAR, Luke HPU, Dodonna, Leia of Cloud City, R2, Gran, Ugo. I knew this was almost an auto loss, but his positioning gave me a shot. Lobot brought MTB/gonk. He ran Yoda up to the side door with the single room. Han took a double and hit once. Mara ran up and reached position, and unleashed a double cunning, but missed one. Han Missed both of his cunnings. That hurt. We traded lots of shots and i missed a ton of shots, especially Han. My MTB got picked off a round early and it just fell apart.

squad 2 was a kid running Boba mando with 5-6 supercommandos. I should have steam rolled it, but again had a hard time hitting. My reinforcements were the gonk and MTB (every game actually) on the temple. Mara missed some key shots again, so it was much more hard fought than it shoudl have been.

squad 3 was boba mando, x2-3 gunslingers, bith and two mando troopers. Again my rolls failed me on key kills. I managed to keep it close, but i couldnt get enough damage on him even after Boba went down. Mara rolled a one on my only assault on the last game and this one. She was hitting about 75% of her shots, even gimmies, and Han was hitting no better than 60%.

squad 4 was ILS on the hard board. He was running new Ben, Luke hoth, han sta, aurra JH. This was the only game where my gonk served a use other than offing my MTB. I luckily got the reactor side. I Han tripled Luke after he picked off my gambit noble, he missed two shots i think. Of course the next round where i could have finished him, i roll a 1 and lose the reroll. He Ran Obi up to base Han. Han tripled and ran. I ended the round by moving my gonk up and offing it with my MTB, doing 20 to Obi. Mara finished him from the other side of the pit. He was going for a pit push, but never got it. In the end i only won this game because even after i offed my gonk i never lost init the rest fo the game. Otherwise i would have lost.

I wasnt happy with the way it ran at all. You really cant afford any misses and Han especially misses a lot! Mara falling flat on her assaults hurt too. AP ran the other version, not optimized i know, but he lost on dice rolls as well. I have yet to have disruptive mean anything in the 8 games i have played. NTMTO hasnt come into effect yet either, although i know that will in a bigger tourney.

OK...first of all....Map choice.

There's two options with this squad. Utilize Han's Mobile to the max, or pick a map that allows you to advance quicker and safer with Mara. So, in that regard, I would put Yavin Temple as one of the worst possible choices. It is too middle of the road to utilize either Han or Mara successfully. There aren't any really good places to let Han sit back and Mobile in and out, shooting across the board. And if your opponent wants to sit on the far back wall and shoot back at you, there is WAY too much distance for Mara to cross safely.

I'd go Death Star if you plan to use Han a lot, as either side gives him great places to utilize Greater Mobile, and protect 90% of the gambit area with those shots. Ruined Base is the primo choice for Mara, IMO, as it is nearly impossible to get a shot on a piece like her until she is within 12 of you. Rancor pit is the 3rd option in my mind, as it is still a bit of balance between cover for Han to hide behind, and cover for Mara to advance behind, but even the giant centerpiece that is the middle of the Rancor Pit map can sometimes prove to be fatal for Mara as she tries to run around it.

All said and done though, sounds like you faced a lot of specific counters to Han GH based squads. Mandos don't have any init control for their faction, and when you have 4-6 Accurate Cunning attackers, it doesn't much matter. The Rebel squads are uniquely designed for anti-stealth, to work against other big beatsticks for the auto 80-90 damage, and the chance to keep pieces at an arm's length. But you didn't face other NR or Imperial, or Sith, or Separatist squads, all of which have decent squads at the 150 point level. So it's quite possible that Mara/Han builds may just not be a good fit for your venue.

I know that several people in our group have been playing Han GH so much that I've begun to back off of Initiative dependent squads at all, and it really ends up catching them off-guard. Now, granted, I haven't played this specific build at our LGS at all, but I do want to try it out at some point.

The benefit with Han, Scoundrel is that he has that Force point and can reroll a big shot if he misses, when you add in Obi-Spirit and Princess Leia, it becomes even more assured damage. Even when I used Han, Scoundrel over the past weekend without either to buff him up, that Force point was a huge help when I needed come up with a shot. I've found that when I used Han GH the lack of the reroll when I need has been a bit of an achilles heel for me.

Oooh, good point. I always forget about that difference. Still though, for 4 points more, Han GH has a lot of different tricks instead, and it puts him in the same useability boat in my book. As I said, I'm thinking that in this situation in could simply be a case of local vs. national meta. Those Rebel squads would really have trouble against Vong JHs or Thrawn squads (no Force Sense or Push), and even the traditional or new-Tyranus San squads would do well in that atmostphere. The main reason to run Han GH at this point, IMO, is to counter enemy Thrawn or MTB. If you aren't seeing those at your venue (which SD13 is apparently not) then part of Han GH is absolutely worthless.

[quote="LoboStele"The main reason to run Han GH at this point, IMO, is to counter enemy Thrawn or MTB. If you aren't seeing those at your venue (which SD13 is apparently not) then part of Han GH is absolutely worthless.[/quote]

He is not a good figure without it. I still say as I have said from the beginning, he has too many abilities which makes his cost too high, especially for 150pt games. I would much rather downgrade the beat and go with Han Scoundrel than run this. Of course that means a Rebel squad.

I can't completely agree with you Bill.

the fact of the matter is that there arn't that many figs in teh game that have double accurate period, let alone figs that let you move and use both attacks. If you look at the closest costed piece its luke LotLS who is 11 point cheaper.
Obviously, luke has a lot more in the way of faction support but Han can get his bonus when he's moving. He also has evade which is a great ability in todays game. The lack of force is a positive and negative. Negative against rerolls but positive against Vong/Sings.

If you took away NTMTO and disruptive your left with a comparable piece to Han Sc. Perhaps his lack of faction support would make him cheaper than 46 but it really seems as though disruptive and NTMTO come at a discount.

In a meta where you can expect San+MTB you really think NTMTO is not worth it? Or does the fact that Han GH is so 'cookiee cutter' that MTBs are off the table?

Having played Han SC a bit, he absolutely needs his force and mettle to hit anything. That's worth way more than not being a jedi for jedi hunter.

To be clear, I was saying that without NTMTOs he isn't worth it. Which I mean that in a meta without a lot of squads dependent on init control he wouldn't be worth playing. I know that seems rather obvious, but my point really is to go one step farther. Even in the few games that NTMTOs isn't active he isn't worth it to me in less than 200pts. I just cannot have 1/3 of my squad, and likely my 1st or 2nd hitter who attacks as low as he does. At 200, I've got no problem with him. I just think at 150 you are better off with another squad.

Let's think about the San MTB squad for example. You run Mara and Han, and I have San Tyranus/Aurra, or Aurra/Boba, etc. Mara still should never kill Aurra or Tyranus in one assault, and Han has at best about 50/50 odds of hitting one of them. So even if you win init, its still highly plausible that the two together will not kill anything beefy. That is no good for a 2 figure MTB squad. Its way too dice dependent for my tastes.

So for those reasons, while I have no issue with Han/Mara/Dodanna as a Tier 1 squad, it suffers from the same problems I had with running Crubls last year. You either feast or famine to an extent with the die rolls. Since both of your figures are rather fragile.

And finally, I think Han GH may actually turn out to be his own biggest issue. Any squad that wants to run the MTB now has to consider NTMTOs. Which means, you cannot run a pure MTB squad any longer. You have to build for what you will do when you face it. And if you look at the best MTB squads, they tend to be alright without the gimmick, but Han and Mara absolutely need it to be successful. I just think he has to be a meta choice as he isn't straight up, as good as some of our other options.

I completely agree with this.

You are so dependant on them to do all of the damage that you cant miss, and they are going to. Has anyone seen the Dr Who episode: Blink?

Dont miss. Whatever you do, do not miss. Miss and you are dead. Dont miss...Good Luck.

Han is gonna hit about 50% of his shots, slightly more if you can get no cover. thats what you aim to get out of him. We are still talking probabilities here. There is no point making moves where you arn't expected to get what you want out of it.



Again, i Disagree. A mobile attacker never has to rely on rushing anything and the fact that you bring lobot means that it isn't really a 2 man Squad unless you bring the MTB (nevermind about the kel dor). The bith, lando and several other pieces from the fringe complement the squad and alter its strategy.



This sounds a bit odd to me, what squads are you not reliant on 2-3 figs to do all the dmg?

The squads that are geenrally like this are going to have much better odds at getting their damage in. Han GH especially costs too much to not bring any/little offense to the match (ie-miss). His misses become fatal.

I have to agree with Bill and Sithdragon on this. Every time I run Han GH (at 200, never tried him at 150) I find myself missing a lot with him. More than 50/50. I really lament not having the ability to reroll misses with Force points than Han, Scoundrel has. relying on 2-3 figures to do all your damage isn't bad, if when I roll with Han, GH for example, I can count on at least an average of 30 damage a round coming from him. I never had that much luck with him in 8 DCI matches and a slew of friendly 200 point matches. I got most of my damage out of Mara and Katarn, and I felt like I was paying 50 points for NTMTO and shaky offense. For That I'd rather play Rebels and run Han, Rogue.

the whole shaky offense argument is lost on me i'm afraid.

Its quite easy to estimate the chances of hitting his target. You are essentially getting a free re-roll everytime you shoot against reasonable defences (25 in cover) you can expect you put an average of 30 dmg per round. This increases as you get no cover shots and decreases without cunning.

You can expect Han GH to drop a Noble with cunning and wound it without cunning, however without cover you can expect to kill it with or without cunning.

His 2nd shot is never lost (unlike twin) so long as you have a 2nd target. So he is great at picking off uggies which he should be able to do with or without cunning. He is also good at attacking supporting pieces, BGDs and pieces that generally have lower defenses.

If your expecting to get 60 dmg everytime you fire a cunning shot with Han then your expecting more than will realistically occur the majority of times and you're playing poorly as a result.
Han is your tech + dmg dealer, but he isn't your main dmg, thats what Mara is there for. Mara also will not hit everytime with her assaults. Needing 6's you expect 3 out of 4 to hit. Thats what the stats gives you. Combined, that gives you 120 dmg which is pretty bloody good for your 1st strike.

Bill doesn't like the piece because he believes all his abilities puts too much cost into the fig, its a fair point. 50 points is a 3rd of your squad cost at 150. However, you do cover a lot of bases with him and while its important not to have unrealistic ideas of his output its also important to understand what he brings to your squad.

I guess my point was that in my experience with Han, GH he's been pretty underwhelming. Sure I can use him to pick off Ugnaughts, and that is basically what I did with him... maybe 12-14 games is a small sample size but I know I rolled much lower than 50% to hit things when I needed a 10/11 to hit. it was just frustrating for me. I admit that the piece is a good piece and all that, but I was just left with a very sour taste in my mouth after using it so much with such poor result.

That's my biggest issue with Han for sure. And for me the issue is too much tech actually. I don't like spending that many points on tech in 150, I think its overkill. Especially when Mara is so dependent on good rolling herself. She falls into the same boat as LV many times but doesn't get to swap away. I just don't think the combo of the two is the best we have at 150, maybe not even the best NR. Your build with the Kel Dor is the best option I have seen. In 200 where you can get Kyle in there, I have not problem with Han.

I should also add, I think his disruptive is almost always a waste of points. He cannot be that close to the fight to use it in so many situations that often you are paying for something you cannot use. To a much lesser extent, the same can be said for NTMTOs.