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 Post subject: Updated Brazilla's Gen-Con 07 Squad
PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2008 8:10 am 
Mandalore
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Alrighty then here it is I think this is EXTREMELY Good.

Luke's Landspeeder 47
Bothan Noble x3 51/98
Princess Leia of Cloud City 14/112
General Dodonna 9/121
Mon Cal Tech Spec x 5 20/141
Ugo demolitionist x 3 9/150

You can out activate most opponents. The Tech Specialists allow for combined fire in a lot of instances. In addition to all of the extra attacks that you get on the speeder you can also eliminate super stealth. The Bothans allow for healing on the Speeder, and Dodonna will usually allow you to move in at the end of a round and unload 8 shots on an opponent. (Very Nasty)

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 Post subject: Re: Updated Brazilla's Gen-Con 07 Squad
PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2008 7:52 pm 
Black Sun Thug
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Nice. Very nice. My only suggestion would be to change the name of the thread to "Barzillai", insted of "Brazilla", since that is the guys screen name... :P

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 Post subject: Re: Updated Brazilla's Gen-Con 07 Squad
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 7:26 am 
One of The Ones
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14 activations is certainly a great start for a squad like this. You'll be able to keep your Bothan's hidden without too much trouble I think, but where you will start to hurt is in terms of keeping damage off of your Landspeeder. You will have 10 activations at the beginning of the round to try to out-tempo your opponent, and then the Landspeeder, and the 3 Nobles. Against many other Tempo squads, they will also have somewhere between 11 and 15 activations. This means your speeder will likely be sitting there getting hit at least several times if you leave it out in the open like that.

I played against someone using a somewhat similar build in a GPL game last week, and it did do quite well (he beat me on dice rolls at the very end of the game), but it sort of becomes an 'all your eggs in one basket' approach. You will still struggle to some degree against Imperial Super Stealth, because they will have Initiative control, AND will likely do their best to keep their important pieces underneath Thrawn's Bubble so that Leia's Force Sense won't affect them. And obviously, the Yuzzhan Vong JHs will give you a head ache as well, since theoretically, it could take the Landspeeder, plus all 3 Nobles just to kill one YVJH if all the Crab armor saves are successful. On the flip side, the JHs will chew through the Landspeeder with a total of 4 activations (8 attacks total w/ average rolling), and even less than that if Yomin Carr or the Shaper is in play.

Ooh, I forgot about the option of healing 30 damage per round with the Nobles though. That would certainly help. But it may cause your Nobles to be awful close to the action, and risk getting sniped.

Again like I said, it's definitely a dangerous build, and played VERY well, I see it doing decently at this point. The problem comes down to whether you think you can really protect your one piece well enough to not be a problem. Once the Landspeeder dies, it's game over.

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 Post subject: Re: Updated Brazilla's Gen-Con 07 Squad
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:20 am 
Jedi Knight
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The original squad was:

1 Luke's Landspeeder
1 Han Solo, Rebel Hero
1 Lobot
1 Princess Leia
1 C-3PO and R2-D2
1 Ugnaught Demolitionist

Reinforcements were usually a Nikto Soldier (for Sniping ugos) and 5 Ugos - sometimes two bodyguards if up against Han Cannon or Boba BH.

The original's core was: Landspeeder + Leia + Han RH. 102 points. Landspeeder can deliver 130 damage with two advantageous twin attacks in a single early-round phase, plus Leia's weak 20 damage shot, and Han contributes a 30 damage mobile accurate cunning shot (probably in the second phase).

Your new core is the Landspeeder + 3 Bothans. 98 points, and the Landspeeder can deliver 160 damage with four twin attacks spread across two phases, or all at once at the end of the round if you outactivate. The Bothans add 3 weak shots for 10 or 3 heals for 10.

On paper, the damage looks about equal, even factoring in the varying hit probabilities. The big difference is trading an early-round pounding for a late-round pounding. I think my original core has more staying power due to Han's mobility, defense and HP compared to the two Bothans who replaced him - even factoring in the healing from the Bothans. Another big difference is that Han has a nice Accurate Shot attack which can force key commanders to keep their head down, and Leia's attack can often take out the Ugnaught standing in front of the thing the Landspeeder really wants to shoot at - something the Bothans will struggle to do. I also think the original could take down Vong a little faster, especialy if Han can take down the Shaper in a few shots.

Now let's look at the support:

Old had 48 points of support: R2-PO for Override, Draw Fire and Disruptive, Lobot for Override and (mostly) customization / free activations, and an Ugo for filler. Almost no offense here, and only the possibility of a Muun for initiative control. (Muun wasn't out last year).

New has 52 points of support: Leia for two rounds of Force Sense and some minor offense, Dodonna for tempo control, MCTS for activations, a few weak shots, or combining fire, and finally 3 Ugos for activations and door control.

Main things I notice here are lack of Disruptive (instead you bring Force Sense) and lack of Override (you rely on 3 Ugos). No customization, but not everyone sees value in that - and in practice I rarely used it.

Lobo has good points as always. I'm not a big fan of Force Sense (not helpful against a well-played Imperial SS squad) - but I really liked having Disruptive for blocking the Thrawn swaps and shutting down the IthCom swarms, and it worked against SS too. Also, my play style doesn't do well with tempo control - I have trouble with placement and I often put my early-activation scrubs in the squares where I later want to park the Landspeeder! If you've got a lot of experience with San Hill type squads, I'm sure you could do well with the revised squad - but I don't think it would work for me.

If I was going to update my squad with the minis available today, I think I would tinker with my support to increase the secondary offense and introduce some much-needed initiative control, while preserving some Override and Disruptive: possibly an Elite Rebel Commando, Rebel on TaunTaun, Juno Eclipse, 2 Mon Cal Techs and an Ugnaught. Need to playtest to see if ERC override + 1 Ugnaught is enough door control. I would also consider dropping Leia in favor of a Noble and another Ugnaught, but I'd need to playtest that too.

With all the tempo control out there, I wonder if activations have become an "all-or-nothing" deal - you either bring lots of activations and tempo control, or you optimize your squad and don't even worry about activations? Not sure there's much difference between 7 and 11 activations when your opponent has 14 activations and tempo control...


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 Post subject: Re: Updated Brazilla's Gen-Con 07 Squad
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 11:50 am 
General
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barzillai wrote:
With all the tempo control out there, I wonder if activations have become an "all-or-nothing" deal - you either bring lots of activations and tempo control, or you optimize your squad and don't even worry about activations? Not sure there's much difference between 7 and 11 activations when your opponent has 14 activations and tempo control...


A very perceptive statement.


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 Post subject: Re: Updated Brazilla's Gen-Con 07 Squad
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 3:14 pm 
Black Sun Thug
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shinja wrote:
barzillai wrote:
With all the tempo control out there, I wonder if activations have become an "all-or-nothing" deal - you either bring lots of activations and tempo control, or you optimize your squad and don't even worry about activations? Not sure there's much difference between 7 and 11 activations when your opponent has 14 activations and tempo control...


A very perceptive statement.


I agree. Thats something I have been considering since Boris' thread about low act squads consistently winning.

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 Post subject: Re: Updated Brazilla's Gen-Con 07 Squad
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 11:22 am 
Moff Disra
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Dis1 wrote:
shinja wrote:
barzillai wrote:
With all the tempo control out there, I wonder if activations have become an "all-or-nothing" deal - you either bring lots of activations and tempo control, or you optimize your squad and don't even worry about activations? Not sure there's much difference between 7 and 11 activations when your opponent has 14 activations and tempo control...


A very perceptive statement.


I agree. Thats something I have been considering since Boris' thread about low act squads consistently winning.


I'm starting to have WK flashbacks. I don't need to win, I just need to not lose (there is a difference).


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 Post subject: Re: Updated Brazilla's Gen-Con 07 Squad
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 12:00 pm 
Death Star Designers
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If it wasnt for B&B, i dont think it would matter hardly at all. Its that darn thrawn swap you have to be ready for or auto lose that really set the bar for activations in 150. 200 is pretty wide open.

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 Post subject: Re: Updated Brazilla's Gen-Con 07 Squad
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 12:14 pm 
One of The Ones
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The presence of Han GH thwarts that a little though, as you don't have the guaranteed swap out at the end of the following round. Not to mention the tempo control squads that cause B&B even more headache. I can see B&B being a direct counter to the low activation squads, so the only way a low activation squad is going to suceed overall if there are enough other things to keep B&B out of the running. Are we at that point?

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