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 Post subject: Re: San Hill
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:48 pm 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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Wow, in my hectic spring I completely missed this discussion the first time! Thanks IKG for bringing it back.

I absolutely love Tyranus and San. I have two main builds that I am playing with currently, and both are similar. I drop Boba BH and made them with MTB potencial.

Here's the links:150
http://bloomilk.com/Squads/ViewSquad.aspx?SquadID=2253

200
http://bloomilk.com/Squads/ViewSquad.aspx?SquadID=2592 (Best version)
http://bloomilk.com/Squads/ViewSquad.aspx?SquadID=2254 (More Fun Version)

San still has one big advantage on the other tempo control figures, the built in reserves on a 1 that counter the MTB. And if you don't think the MTB affects the meta, then you are not playing at a competitive venue. Sure, he has the drawback, and I love that because it keeps him in check. But man, play some Tyranus, so much fun!

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 Post subject: Re: San Hill
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 9:28 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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billiv15 wrote:
Wow, in my hectic spring I completely missed this discussion the first time! Thanks IKG for bringing it back.

I absolutely love Tyranus and San. I have two main builds that I am playing with currently, and both are similar. I drop Boba BH and made them with MTB potencial.

Here's the links:150
http://bloomilk.com/Squads/ViewSquad.aspx?SquadID=2253

200
http://bloomilk.com/Squads/ViewSquad.aspx?SquadID=2592 (Best version)
http://bloomilk.com/Squads/ViewSquad.aspx?SquadID=2254 (More Fun Version)

San still has one big advantage on the other tempo control figures, the built in reserves on a 1 that counter the MTB. And if you don't think the MTB affects the meta, then you are not playing at a competitive venue. Sure, he has the drawback, and I love that because it keeps him in check. But man, play some Tyranus, so much fun!


All very solid builds Bill. They will do great against most squads, but like all San squads they suffer severely against Vong squads. With no means of doing high damage, San squads really suffer against Crab Armor 6. Go figure though, high damage squads (such as Mando's) fall to San when they can easily beat Vong. Rock, Paper, Scissors anyone? :D

Now my question is, is there a way to make a San squad that can overpower Vong squads? What could be used to remedy that? Tyrannus is great fun and all (and works VERY well against some squads), but what happens when you end up playing those dreaded Vong? It is a rough time for San. What he needs is a high damage figure that can go through that armor, but what? I really don't know.

The issue for me though, is I would never play a San squad at a major tourney because of the Vong presence. If there were a figure that could stand up to them that San could abuse then I could easily justify it.

Just my 2 cents. :D

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 Post subject: Re: San Hill
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 9:45 pm 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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Nah, just have to be creative against Vong.

1st, until someone proves that Vong are consistent enough to win a big tourney (not gonna happen at 150 without an awful lot of luck), you are really only concerned with a first or second round matchup. Then, odds are you aren't playing a good player, as he/she either didn't analyze the meta correctly, or decided to play a fun squad instead.

And finally, you just need to be more creative in your choices against Vong. Garindan is often the right choice, as can be 5 Caamasi in the right situations, or a couple of bgs for your figs. Understanding how to abuse placement is pretty key in these matchups as well. You can isolate melee swarms pretty darn easily if you know what you are doing, and pick them off one at a time. And since you will always go last, then first against them, I honestly don't see it as that big of a deal.

I will remind you, that last year at Gencon, I took a squad that I knew would have a very tough matchup against JWM swarms. However, while I expected a lot of JWMs, I also expected that the better players would not be running swarms but rather JWMs as interference - which I could deal with.

Of course my final loss was to a JWM swarm, but that had as much to do with a few rolls going bad as the matchup. I can come up with a competative counter to any 150 squad you wanna throw out there, the key is understanding which ones you have to be prepared for in a given tournament. And sometimes you will be wrong. But to say you would never bring San because of the possibility of Vong is just wrong. It means you will instead bring a standard non-Vong squad that mine will defeat easily, and you have played right into my game. That's why "meta squad" is a completely incorrect term. "Meta" refers to the tournament and the players, not specific squads per se.

Let me give you a scenario. I set up so that you will have basically one option, move the shaper, then attack with one JH in a round. At best you are getting two attacks on Tyranus, then perhaps some bugs for extra dmg. Most of the time, I will get to hit you last with tyranus for 20/10, then with Aurra for 20/10 twin. Now I set up Garindan, win init with the MTB, and then hit you with Aurra for 50/40 then 20/10 and you have a dead Vong JH. Now I can run and set up again. You get to kill nothing and will have to move more than 6 to base. At best you get to kill Garindan, but are down a JH. So now, at 150 you are down to 2, and I have a full health Aurra and Tyranus. At 200, I have Boba who has already finished another JH during that time.

Not saying you are wrong per se to consider Vong a tough matchup - but you have to look at it from the perspective of a real tournament. A Pure Vong JH 150 squad is not competitive at the top level. And at 150, you really can't afford the shooter that it needs. There are just too many squads that can take them out that at this point, I don't really spend a lot of time worrying about that matchup. And even given that its a bad matchup, its not unwinnable for San either. A lot depends on map and placement.

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 Post subject: Re: San Hill
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:29 am 
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Well, I once played San with Durge (and CS Maul) and some Aqualish Assassins (yes, I am obsessed by them :wink: ). The Momentum really paid off big time. Now I would most likely drop Maul (only played him for fun because I pulled him from a booster :mrgreen: ) and put something else inside - maybe some more Aquas! :P Anyway, what I am trying to say is, you can have a lot of dmg output with San. It is only a question of combos.

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 Post subject: Re: San Hill
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:38 am 
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billiv15 wrote:
A Pure Vong JH 150 squad is not competitive at the top level. And at 150, you really can't afford the shooter that it needs. There are just too many squads that can take them out that at this point, I don't really spend a lot of time worrying about that matchup. And even given that its a bad matchup, its not unwinnable for San either. A lot depends on map and placement.


and on the opponent... I have seen very good squads run by players that either did not understand how to use them most effectively or had a (sometimes very) bad day. I personally only worry about the anti-squads to a certain degree since I cannot get rid of all the weaknesses that my squads have. There will most likely be at least one bad match-up for you at any tournament (and very often there is a nasty surprise waiting from one of the more creative players). As I said, don't worry too much about the anti-squads. If they aren't too competitive tournamentwise, you won't run into too many of them. If you do, try to minimize your mistakes and outplay your opponent. Experience goes a loooooong way! :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: San Hill
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:26 am 
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I went ahead and updated the first post with the Tyranus build for San squads, as I feel it is probably just as viable in the meta at this point. An interesting match-up would be the mirror in this situation, as Tyranus doesn't have much defense against the likes of Boba and Aurra beyond his high HP. A key MTB/Lightning seems like it would be the major deciding factor in that matchup.

A question to think about here though, what is the best map choice for the Tyranus build? Death Star has always seemed to be the prefered choice for what I ran at GenCon last year, because it gives lots of nice opportunities (from either side of the map) for Boba and Aurra to move around and keep fairly easy LOS on the gambit area. However, with the Tyranus build, that's not really as important, since you don't have any mobile attackers, and you probably want to worry more about trying to advance Tyranus across the board and put him in position for Lightning attacks. So, maybe Ravaged Base, Jedi Temple, or Throne Room?

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 Post subject: Re: San Hill
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:07 pm 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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I've been using Muunalist, since it allows you to restrict the movement options of your opponent so much especially in the gambit area. And you can approach out of los either through the top rooms or the bottom as needed. I wouldn't use Yavin Temple for this, and ravaged base has just too many doors to work with. I would consider secondarily Chancelor's as a good option.

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 Post subject: Re: San Hill
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:33 pm 
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I second the Throne Room. The middle room with its long wall is the perfect cover from any shooters. You are able to reach the gambit zone fairly easy from both sides and thus force shooters out into the open (you indeed have to get near the doors to attack anyone in the gambit area). The fray nature of that map also is the perfect surrounding for Aurra's Blaster Barrage. On open maps it is too easy to avoid having multiple minis being shot at.

I don't like the Plaza that much because it is very easy with Override to create perfect lines of sight on the enemy squad, attack and then close the doors again. Yes, you have several Uggies to blow up doors, but you also have the MTB that costs you an Uggy every round (or San :cry: ) and Uggies are easily picked off on this map, too. Maybe Bill is very comfortable with the map itself, so it could suit him better.

For myself (and players who ain't too sure about the Plaza) it would be the Throne room since engaging the gambit zone is so much easier.

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 Post subject: Re: San Hill
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:38 pm 
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I like muulinist for this one. I like the ability to keep my forces hidden, and that is pretty easy. Also the gambit zone is interesting on that map. One more comment about the mirror match is that in all likely-hood neither player will be winning initiative via the MTB because the opposing San would get points every turn.

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