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squeezing?
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Author:  urbanjedi [ Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:03 pm ]
Post subject:  squeezing?

When do I have to start unsqueezing?

For example if I were on the Deathstar map with Snowspeeder and I started in the middle room on the right side and I flew up one of the hallways outside the room would I have to start unqueezing as soon as I hit the end of the hall and have to move a square away from the center or could I keep going straight and unsqueeze toward the middle so I could get further up the map?

I think that I have to start as soon as possible (even if it means going in a direction I do not want to) because you cannot voluntarily squeeze but just wanted to make sure.

I asked this over on the WOTC boards but decided here was a better place to ask as it seems that those boards are dead.

Thanks

Author:  jedispyder [ Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: squeezing?

I think you're confused with Squeezing. You're making it sound like it's a horrible thing to do, lol. The only restriction on Squeezing is that for Huges you need 2 square doorways and for larges you need 1 square doorway and also that you must end your square in a non-squeezing location. There's no forcing you to go one direction you don't like or anything like that, why would you even think that in the first place?

Author:  urbanjedi [ Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: squeezing?

Because we know you cannot voluntarily squeeze (to get past an enemy or anything) so my question was if going down a hallway or something (like in the example) would I have to move out as soon as opportunity presented itself? I have never really seen it discussed before.

I assume you would have to move to the square that would let you unsqeeze (go back to normal) if such a square were available as soon as you could but wanted to make sure.

Author:  billiv15 [ Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: squeezing?

urbanjedi wrote:
Because we know you cannot voluntarily squeeze (to get past an enemy or anything) so my question was if going down a hallway or something (like in the example) would I have to move out as soon as opportunity presented itself? I have never really seen it discussed before.

I assume you would have to move to the square that would let you unsqeeze (go back to normal) if such a square were available as soon as you could but wanted to make sure.


No, there is no requirement to do that. The only requirement is that you have to end your move in a legal square. It's comparable to savage in that regard. "Voluntary" or "Involuntary" are not part of the rules. All the rules say is that "squeezing" is only an option for hallways, doors, and walls. You can't do it through characters. But that does not mean it changes your movement. As long as you have the movement to end up where you want, you can go there.

Author:  LoboStele [ Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: squeezing?

I think Jason is right though. If you've got 6 squares of your speeder that are still in a 2-square wide hallway, then that part of your piece is still squeezing. But if the other 3 squares of your huge piece are in an area that can occupy it's un-squeezed locations, then I think you have to take that.

Take for example the image below. A Huge piece is moving right-to-left down the hallway. I believe Jason's question is about when the piece gets to where I indicated with the red box. Would the huge be allowed to continue squeezing into a 3x2 area since two of the Huge's columns are still within the hallway in Columns Z and AA? Or is the piece automatically forced to occupy square Y5 because it can un-squeeze at that point? I think the answer is that "Yes, you must occupy Y5". And even worse, if an enemy piece is in Y5, then you can't move down the hallway at all, because then you'd be trying to squeeze past an enemy.

Author:  billiv15 [ Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: squeezing?

Read the squeezing rules again, and show me where they require anything that you "must" do in your movement.

I have no idea what you were saying with that diagram Lobo.

Author:  LoboStele [ Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: squeezing?

OK....let me try again then, lol. OK, if the piece was squeezing, it would only take up a 3x2 area. So, squares Z6 through BB7 would be the last ones that it would be fully squeezing. When the piece moves one more square to the left, is it still squeezing in squares Y6 through AA7, or does the left-most column 'un-squeeze' into Y5 as well. Obviously, by the time the bottom right corner of the Snowspeeder gets to column Y (left side of SS would be in column W then), than it obviously has to shift up into squares W5 through Y7. The question is what happens between that time. Does the Snowspeeder stay compressed in it's 3x2 squeezing size until it can entirely un-squeeze, or is it required to fill whatever un-squeezed area it can? I believe it is required to fill that space. So when the SS gets to columns Y through AA, then it has to shift up to be in rows 5 through 7, where I indicated with the red box.

Author:  billiv15 [ Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: squeezing?

Ok, I think I get it. Let's assume the movement being attempted begins with the upper left corner of the SS at FF8 and the desired end space is V8. How many spaces of movement are required to get there?

The correct answer is 16 squares, not the 14 that I suppose you could attempt if allowed to not "unsqueeze". 16 is correct, as you must move the one square up in this case at the end of the hallway.

I was confused, I thought he was asking about being forced to take an early exit from a squeeze to move into some shorter distance location or something. Yes, I agree then, in this specific case, you must follow the path of least resistance or something like that.

Author:  LoboStele [ Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: squeezing?

Ahhh...good way to describe it. Yes, FF8 to V8 would require 16 squares of movement, by going through the red box I had indicated. Good way to describe it. And again, as I pointed out, if an enemy was siting in squares Y5, X5, or W5, then you wouldn't be able to move through there at all!

Author:  Disturbed1 [ Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: squeezing?

LoboStele wrote:
And again, as I pointed out, if an enemy was siting in squares Y5, X5, or W5, then you wouldn't be able to move through there at all!


Interesting. Would Flight allow a hige, ala Snowspeeder, to move past the enemies though? I would think it would allow you to move by the enemies, as flight lets you pass through enemy squares anyway, would this be any different?

Author:  The_Celestial_Warrior [ Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: squeezing?

There are two different questions being presented here:

To answer Jason first: There are two requirements to Squeezing 1) a square or group of squares whose width is equal to half the size of the figure being squeezed. 2) You must end your movement in a square(s) that can normally be occuppied.

That's it. For some reason I couldnt find my Death Star Map to look at the specific area you mentioned but that should answer your question.

To answer Aaron: First off, your question is moot as the SS has Flight anyway ;). But assuming it was a huge without Flight then you are correct (mostly). The Huge would be able to squeeze down the hallway and the first two squares would be able to move past the enemy in Y5, but since the Huge's back corner would move through the enemy at the moment the Squeeze is ended, it would be an illegal move.

In other words the way I understand it, while you cannot squeeze past enemies there ends up being certain conditions where it is legal. Imagine a 2 square wide hallway every 4 squares there is a single (alcove) square that makes the hallway 3 squares wide for a single row. If you had an enemy character in that alcove square, I believe it would still be a legal move as the two conditions stated above are still satisfied. If this alcove were actually 3 rows wide, to create the 9 square space for a huge...then yes the move would not be allowed.

I think the concept behind the restriction (You can not squeeze past enemy characters)IMO is meant to be applied thusly: Enemy characters who are lined up in such a way to create a 2 square wide "hallway".

Kind of odd situation that's never really came up, nor do I believe we have a map where my above "alcove" example could happen, but thats how I interpret it.

Author:  The_Celestial_Warrior [ Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: squeezing?

billiv15 wrote:
Ok, I think I get it. Let's assume the movement being attempted begins with the upper left corner of the SS at FF8 and the desired end space is V8. How many spaces of movement are required to get there?

The correct answer is 16 squares, not the 14 that I suppose you could attempt if allowed to not "unsqueeze". 16 is correct, as you must move the one square up in this case at the end of the hallway.

I was confused, I thought he was asking about being forced to take an early exit from a squeeze to move into some shorter distance location or something. Yes, I agree then, in this specific case, you must follow the path of least resistance or something like that.



Are you saying the desired end space of the upper left corner is V8 or just the end space of the SS or huge in question? If it's the latter I still count 14 spaces. If it's the original corner then yeah its 16.

Author:  LoboStele [ Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: squeezing?

The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
There are two different questions being presented here:

To answer Jason first: There are two requirements to Squeezing 1) a square or group of squares whose width is equal to half the size of the figure being squeezed. 2) You must end your movement in a square(s) that can normally be occuppied.

That's it. For some reason I couldnt find my Death Star Map to look at the specific area you mentioned but that should answer your question.

To answer Aaron: First off, your question is moot as the SS has Flight anyway ;). But assuming it was a huge without Flight then you are correct (mostly). The Huge would be able to squeeze down the hallway and the first two squares would be able to move past the enemy in Y5, but since the Huge's back corner would move through the enemy at the moment the Squeeze is ended, it would be an illegal move.

In other words the way I understand it, while you cannot squeeze past enemies there ends up being certain conditions where it is legal. Imagine a 2 square wide hallway every 4 squares there is a single (alcove) square that makes the hallway 3 squares wide for a single row. If you had an enemy character in that alcove square, I believe it would still be a legal move as the two conditions stated above are still satisfied. If this alcove were actually 3 rows wide, to create the 9 square space for a huge...then yes the move would not be allowed.

I think the concept behind the restriction (You can not squeeze past enemy characters)IMO is meant to be applied thusly: Enemy characters who are lined up in such a way to create a 2 square wide "hallway".

Kind of odd situation that's never really came up, nor do I believe we have a map where my above "alcove" example could happen, but thats how I interpret it.


LOL, yeah, I kind of mixed things up a bit when referring to the enemy in the way part of it and the SS having Flight. So yeah, with the SS it doesn't matter, but with something like a Krayt Dragon, then it would.

And Brad, I'm quite certain you're incorrect. I believe that a character sitting in square Y5 would prevent the movement as soon as you got to that point, not because it would block the final space of movement.

Actually, here, let me present a better example.

See the attached photo below. The big red square represents a Huge, say a Rebel Troop Cart (non-Rigid, non-Flight). The blue square represents an enemy character. The Troop Cart would like to move from it's current position to the G1-I3 set of 9 squares. However, in order to do that, it must squeeze as it moves. Now, when it gets to position C1-E3, there is an enemy sitting in E1. Technically, the Troop Cart is squeezing in column D, and only occupying squares D2 and D3 there. However, that does not cause the entire piece to squeeze down into C2-E3. It would still occupy squares C1 and E1, and since there is an enemy in E1, it cannot move through there at all. Even though the Troop Cart would be squeezing both before (column D) and after passing the enemy (column F), it would technically not supposed to be squeezing in Column E.

Author:  LoboStele [ Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: squeezing?

The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
billiv15 wrote:
Ok, I think I get it. Let's assume the movement being attempted begins with the upper left corner of the SS at FF8 and the desired end space is V8. How many spaces of movement are required to get there?

The correct answer is 16 squares, not the 14 that I suppose you could attempt if allowed to not "unsqueeze". 16 is correct, as you must move the one square up in this case at the end of the hallway.

I was confused, I thought he was asking about being forced to take an early exit from a squeeze to move into some shorter distance location or something. Yes, I agree then, in this specific case, you must follow the path of least resistance or something like that.



Are you saying the desired end space of the upper left corner is V8 or just the end space of the SS or huge in question? If it's the latter I still count 14 spaces. If it's the original corner then yeah its 16.


He's saying the same upper left corner of the Huge piece moves from FF8 to V8.

Author:  The_Celestial_Warrior [ Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: squeezing?

I have to disagree with you there Aaron. I don't think you unsqueeze squeeze unsqueeze. Squeezing is a special movement rule that continues to occur until you have a legal space(s) to occupy. A huge cannot occupy D1 and F1 therefore the squeeze is still in effect as you have not met the 2nd condition. An attack of opportunity would still occur as you are moving past an enemy character, but I don't think it is considered to be moving through him.

Author:  jedispyder [ Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: squeezing?

Disturbed1 wrote:
LoboStele wrote:
And again, as I pointed out, if an enemy was siting in squares Y5, X5, or W5, then you wouldn't be able to move through there at all!


Interesting. Would Flight allow a hige, ala Snowspeeder, to move past the enemies though? I would think it would allow you to move by the enemies, as flight lets you pass through enemy squares anyway, would this be any different?

When you have Flight it's not squeezing because you ignore enemy characters (aka you can fly past them all you want and won't get an AoO or anything).

Author:  Sithborg [ Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: squeezing?

The real question is "what spaces am I occupying while squeezing". I seriously am going to look around a bit, just because I want to see be sure, since it is leading me to some weird places. I have been thinking a bit about it since I saw a Lancer move through CC.

Author:  LoboStele [ Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: squeezing?

The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
I have to disagree with you there Aaron. I don't think you unsqueeze squeeze unsqueeze. Squeezing is a special movement rule that continues to occur until you have a legal space(s) to occupy. A huge cannot occupy D1 and F1 therefore the squeeze is still in effect as you have not met the 2nd condition. An attack of opportunity would still occur as you are moving past an enemy character, but I don't think it is considered to be moving through him.


But that's just it, Brad. Squares C1 and E1 would typically be legal spaces for the character to be in, while it squeezes past D1. But because the enemy is in E1, it is no longer a legal square. And the rules specifically say "you cannot squeeze past enemies". So it doesn't matter that you're being squeezed by D1 or F1, the simple fact that an enemy exists in E1 would mean that you'd have to squeeze in Column E in order to get by him.

I can't access the WOTC boards while here at work, but I'm quite certain this is how it works, and I think there was a thread about it at one point a long time ago.

Author:  thereisnotry [ Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: squeezing?

Sithborg wrote:
The real question is "what spaces am I occupying while squeezing".

I think this is at the heart of the question. It's worth looking into as well, since the Lancer is a definite contender in current meta.

Author:  LoboStele [ Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: squeezing?

Well, Lancer has Flight, so doesn't really matter so much.

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