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Soresu Style Mastery works on anything???
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Author:  billiv15 [ Sun Apr 12, 2009 7:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Soresu Style Mastery works on anything???

Gemini1179 wrote:
Like with everything else, the hubbub will settle down after people run him for a few months.


I don't think so. If anything it will get worse, probably much worse. The more I play with and against this mini, the more I see it as a major problem.

And you are wrong, Rob has specifically been designing this game as a DCI tournament game since A&E. I don't know where you got the idea that he is not doing so. Obi is a mistake, and potencially a very problematic one that I think, will have to be banned at some point.

I'm still working on the data, and play testing as many options as I can, but its not going well for the Obi fans.

It isn't the kids that bother me with this mini. Its the average to good player, who I can no longer beat even 50% of the time when I am playing some of my best squads against it. Let alone when its played well. Nothing has been that good ever in the game's history. At least in the B&B days, it took a top level player to run B&B, and you still had San Hill. Right now, there just doesn't seem to be the options to deal with him.

And please guys, leave out the "wait til JA" comments. I promise you, Obi will also get more figures that make him even better as well, its a forgone conclusion with a figure like this. Every fringe and Republic piece we get from now on can be boosted with Obi. Luke GM has nothing on this.

Author:  Grand Moff Boris [ Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Soresu Style Mastery works on anything???

Gemini1179 wrote:
Rob designs for the SWM core rules (one would assume), not DCI play.


You're joking, right? Either that, or you haven't been paying attention, or you are ignoring the evidence because it is incovenient.

The game was originanlly designed with a casual feel to it. Then we started getting tournaments, so they made it more competitive. That's it, and it doesn't matter if you believe me or not, the differences in the card cost-to-ability ratio speaks for itself. If you choose to ignore that fact, that's not my problem. Hopefully you will snap out of the denial someday.

Author:  Grand Moff Boris [ Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Soresu Style Mastery works on anything???

dnemiller wrote:
This has occurred for one simple reason. No one involved in making Star Wars Miniatures ever plays the game. They have no idea the interactions they are creating. They take each piece one by one. Instead of playing the pieces with a squad of already existing stuff.


This is a theory, not a fact. Parts of the statement also contradict what Rob has told us about the game's design.

Quote:
I for one, unfortunately for the first time, totally support the banning of Gowk. I am and will be prepared to make that reccommendation. Unfortunately it has happened. If Obi Wan was like Boba BH and his SSM only could effect 5% of the game outcome then I would say he is fine. But unfortunately he makes the game a matter of killing all of Obi's support and stalling for the win. I am not saying Gowk squads cannot be beaten... I am just saying that what it takes to beat Gowk gets crushed by other things. And doesnt necessarily always beat Gowk.


I wonder how much the fear of GOWK is playing into those games, and if the outcome is "predetermined," even when it's not intended to be so.

Author:  LoboStele [ Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Soresu Style Mastery works on anything???

OK, so how do we communicate with Rob BEFORE he posts the errata and make known our concerns?

In the Cincy group here, several of us have discussed it, and we really feel like a balanced compromise would be to allow Soresu Mastery to negate all attacks, but ONLY from adjacent enemies. This makes him much more vulnerable to shooters, and changes nothing about how he interacts with Melee pieces. It would also give GOWK more of the 'logical' feel when defending against things like a LS Assault from Mara Jade. I don't think this leaves GOWK as 'broken', and certainly reduces his power from the currently level. But it still makes him a tad stronger than the current ruling. This would still allow the standard Soresu Style (which may be yet to come) to negate only Melee Attacks.

I personally feel this is the BEST solution right now. I really hate to see him get banned. Under the current rules, it's quite a bit of fun to run him at 200 points. He's mildly competitive, and requires good skill to run him. With the change I (and I know at least StriderRe80 has mentioned it too) mentioned above, I think it would make GOWK a definite power-piece, but wouldn't put him into the 'ban him' category that it's looking like right now.

At the same time....Rob never has posted exactly what the ruling is going to look like. It occurs to me that my suggestion here, could be exactly what it will be anyways. Rob just basically said "SSM works on all attacks, not just melee", but he didn't say whether there were any further restrictions to it. Could very well be that it only "works on all ADJACENT attacks" but we'll see when the errata is posted I guess.

What I'm wondering here, is if there's a good way to contact Rob BEFORE that errata gets posted and make sure he's aware of how scared the competitive community is right now.

I haven't had a chance to really catch up with the 20+ page threads on WOTC (read some of it), but I did play a quick test game the other night. I'll write up a full report for it at some point. Short version is that I was playing against GOWK, and it was a sub-par GOWK squad at that, and I was playing my IE variant of San Hill. I barely won the game, and IMO, the guy playing GOWK (Luke_hates_thrawn) basically just bum rushed me. Very little strategy. I also rolled like garbage a good portion of the game (failed 6 out of 6 Parry/Evade rolls with Jarael, lol), but it still scared me. However, had SSM not worked against non-adjacent attacks, I would have massacred him. GOWK likely would've been dead by the third round, all other things played the same.

Author:  Grand Moff Boris [ Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Soresu Style Mastery works on anything???

LoboStele wrote:
At the same time....Rob never has posted exactly what the ruling is going to look like. It occurs to me that my suggestion here, could be exactly what it will be anyways. Rob just basically said "SSM works on all attacks, not just melee", but he didn't say whether there were any further restrictions to it. Could very well be that it only "works on all ADJACENT attacks" but we'll see when the errata is posted I guess.


Now you're reaching lol.

Author:  LoboStele [ Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Soresu Style Mastery works on anything???

Grand Moff Boris wrote:
LoboStele wrote:
At the same time....Rob never has posted exactly what the ruling is going to look like. It occurs to me that my suggestion here, could be exactly what it will be anyways. Rob just basically said "SSM works on all attacks, not just melee", but he didn't say whether there were any further restrictions to it. Could very well be that it only "works on all ADJACENT attacks" but we'll see when the errata is posted I guess.


Now you're reaching lol.


How is that reaching? It's a perfectly logical possibility. Rob has never been known to be a very verbose guy. Sure, the assumption that SSM will work on all attacks regardless of adjacency is what most of us are expecting, but I see either one being possible, seeing as how Rob never stated specifically what the Errata was going to be.

And regardless of whether it's reaching or not, I'm really frustrated that I've seen this EXACT suggestion made several other times, and yet everyone of you other 'top end' guys seem to either ignore it, make fun of it, or outright dismiss it. You would rather ban the piece than try to make it work? The Errata hasn't been posted yet. I know people are generally against issuing an errata now, and then changing that errata later. So, if Rob is definitely going to post at least 1 errata for this, why not take the time and do it right the first time?

Everybody seems to have jumped right to the forgone conclusion of banning GOWK. Let's see if there is a way we can FIX the problem without needing a banning. If we can get contact with Rob/design team BEFORE they post the errata, might be possible to nip this in the bud without requiring a ban.

Author:  billiv15 [ Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Soresu Style Mastery works on anything???

LoboStele wrote:
And regardless of whether it's reaching or not, I'm really frustrated that I've seen this EXACT suggestion made several other times, and yet everyone of you other 'top end' guys seem to either ignore it, make fun of it, or outright dismiss it. You would rather ban the piece than try to make it work? The Errata hasn't been posted yet. I know people are generally against issuing an errata now, and then changing that errata later. So, if Rob is definitely going to post at least 1 errata for this, why not take the time and do it right the first time?
Whoa there. I am against certain "errata" ideas - those that would make the card even more difficult to deal with, such as removing abilities from GOWK. I am not necessarily against changing around how SSM would work. What concerns me about this suggestion in particular, is what I believe Soresu to be. I expect Soresu Style to work on non-melee attacks, not melee. I think that was the big gripe most people had with SSM to begin with. Had it been Non-melee, people would have been happy with it as that fits the fluff. So in that light, would it make sense to have SSM be all attacks when adjacent? Obviously if the opposite is true for SS (melee attacks), then you are right, this would be a good solution, and I think it would balance Obi well enough for me. But if SS is non-melee, I am concerned that the vast difference in how they work could be annoying.

LoboStele wrote:
Everybody seems to have jumped right to the forgone conclusion of banning GOWK. Let's see if there is a way we can FIX the problem without needing a banning. If we can get contact with Rob/design team BEFORE they post the errata, might be possible to nip this in the bud without requiring a ban.
Dean and I were talking about this last night after our test game. I haven't discussed a lot of the possible other options because frankly, many of them aren't helpful, and I really needed to study the problem before I could address it adequately. Let's just take for example one of the popular solutions, dropping mettle. It changes Obi's save by a few percentage points, but overall, makes almost no difference, yet over and over again, even after posting the math behind it, people keep bringing it up. Not to mention the problem of errata taking something off of a card for the first time, the confusion that brings with it, and the new precedent of errata for game balance.

Anyways, I mention the possible problems with the "adjacent attacks" issue above, and it still takes us farther away from the source material, which won't make people happy. So there are still issues with it as well.

I've played around with a couple of options, and I think, I might have the only one that I think can solve this. Soresu Style Mastery remains all attacks, but it costs 1FP to use it. Again, this goes against the trend of the lightsaber styles being force free, but it takes away one reroll, and more importantly, makes multi-attackers have a chance against it. It also allows the future Soresu Style to remain non-melee (or melee, although I expect non as the more likely) without a FP. It let's force immune characters be a counter to Obi, and let's the Vong at least play the game. As is now, they are almost useless. It would make the Obi player, have to consider running Qui-Gon for FS to really make the Obi tank, and now you've balanced out the game somewhat. It also makes Obi more in line with the new GM Luke's Lightsaber Defense.

Another option, more in line with the adjacent idea, is to make it work like having parry and evade, where adjacent non-melee attacks can get through it. I think that would help tremendously - even though it too is slightly confusing.

And that gets us to the heart of the issue I think. For so long now, many people have been asking for jedi to have free force powers, complaining that X has parry, why not all jedi, yada yada. I've argued vehemently against it in the past, and continue to do so here. Its a bad idea, and here's the proof. The Lightsaber Styles, may be the bigger problem in general. It just isn't fair in a game that is fundamentally about damage and damage mitigation to allow the highest hp and defense figures, have free abilities to prevent all damage, and then force points to reroll in the key cases were you fail. I think the foundational problem here are all of these free abilities, that are being given to figures without affecting their other stats. Take a look at Anakin CoN for example. He gets Djem so, but it requires one save to even get it, then you still have to attack. Perhaps we could make Soresu the same, where it takes two saves of 11 to work, I don't know - also seems confusing. But when you go forward to GM Luke, it still isn't as big of a deal because he has to spend the fp to get the ability. I am not sure, but that may be the heart of the problem for me, and that's why I suggest the only option so far that I have seen that would work well enough, is make it cost a fp.

Obi is already a good figure. He has a great CE, that makes any jedi an absolute beast even against the best squads. I had trouble killing an Ashoka the other day with a San Hill squad. He needs to have some vulnerability to attacks, as targeted direct damage isn't enough. I really like that he can counter shooters well, and would like that to stay with him on any errata we have. That's why I propose the following.

If Soresu Style is a free, non-melee save 11:

Soresu Style Master (1FP) - This character takes no damage from all attacks - save of 11.

or

Simply make it non-melee, and even if SS is the same exact thing, deal with the complaints. Consider that MotF2 and Mettle make up the fluff advantages of SSM over Soresu as a fluff explanation. There isn't a great solution to this that I can see, that both covers the source material well, and keeps the game balanced. So something has to give. If Rob wants to keep the fluff, then I think we have no choice. Banning is the easiest choice Lobo, which is why I think you feel we are ignoring other options. And I don't go into that lightly at all.

Author:  LoboStele [ Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Soresu Style Mastery works on anything???

OK, sounds good. Like I said, it's just become a little frustrating trying to catch up with the various conversations (I've read like 16-17 pages of the 20+ page thread on WOTC), and all I hear is "ban, ban, ban" with very little of "what could work. I understand the issues of having a DCI rule that is different from a standard rule, but honestly, we already have that with the 1 activation for the first phase in the round anyways. I'm not sure that making some other small differences in the DCI rules would be that confusing here.

Again, I know the concern is that people show up to DCI events and get confused because they don't understand the different ruling. But my argument has ALWAYS been, that if you show up to GenCon for the Championships, and you don't know the DCI Floor Rules well enough to at least obvious things like the 1-activation thing, or a change to GOWK's card, or something like that, then you're not a competitor that any of the other top players need to be worried about anyways. If you can't take 5 minutes to read and understand the rules, then you aren't going to be winning a national event anyways.

billiv15 wrote:
And that gets us to the heart of the issue I think. For so long no, many people have been asking for jedi to have free force powers, complaining that X has parry, why not all jedi, yada yada. I've argued vehemently against it in the past, and continue to do so here. Its a bad idea, and here's the proof. The Lightsaber Styles, may be the bigger problem in general. It just isn't fair in a game that is fundamentally about damage and damage mitigation to allow the highest hp and defense figures, have free abilities to prevent all damage, and then force points to reroll in the key cases were you fail. I think the foundational problem here are all of these free abilities, that are being given to figures without affecting their other stats.


100% agree with you here. The Styles have muddied the waters. I agree, it's obviously Rob catering to those that have asked for these kinds of things. On a casual level, I think they are really cool, and serve to help the various character's feel more like they do in the movies/books/etc. But for the competitive game, it is slowing the game down at an alarming rate. Even beyond the problems of GOWK being an easy piece to stall with. Just keeping track of Djem So interactions can add an extra 5-10 minutes to a game, lol.

Making SSM cost a FP to use is certainly an option. But it would exactly identical to Lightsaber Defense then, and there'd be no reason to have a separate ability (other than it's interaction with Makashi right now, I guess). In terms of simple Errata and such, that wouldn't be too bad though, since we've seen times before where Force Powers didn't have their FP cost listed on the card (I think Obi Unleashed from TFU is the last one that comes to mind). However, SSM is NOT under the 'Force Powers' heading on the card, so I could see that being just as confusing to some people.

And of course, we still end up coming back to the point of....a competitive player will have to be up to date with the Errata in order to know the correct ruling. Which would be no different from being up to date with the DCI Floor Rules. Heck, if we do decide to ban GOWK in DCI, you'd STILL have to be up to date with the Floor Rules in order to know that.

So, I think I would still propose a change in how he plays, rather than an outright banning. I know the banning is the easy solution. On the other hand, I would hate to be a GenCon judge, and somebody shows up with their GOWK squad, only to be told that 55 points of their squad is illegal. If they are like a lot of us that come to GenCon, they brought one small box with their squad, and none of the rest of their collection. Which means they are completely out of luck for competing if they don't have an optional squad to run instead. I'd hate to be that person or the judge that has to break the news to them. Either for fear of the angry outburst, or just upsetting someone who was really looking forward to playing.

At least if it's a scenario like "Just so you know, you can play GOWK, but there's a DCI rule concerning how he works...", then you're not in the above situation. That player may not have a squad that is as good as he previously thought, but at least it would still stand a chance.


All said and done though, I still am trying to find out if there's any possible way to touch base with Rob PRE-errata and work this thing out so all the rest of this stuff is a non-issue.

Author:  LoboStele [ Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Soresu Style Mastery works on anything???

What if SSM was supposed to work on all 'non-melee attacks', and then regular Soresu Style were to work on 'adjacent non-melee' attacks?

I know that completely flip-flops things from the current ruling (all melee), but it makes more sense in the 'in universe' way, and seems like it would be balanaced IMO. This would, again, serve to boost Melee pieces in the game, which is something else people have requested.

Yes, I understand this would be ridiculously confusing, since it would be a 180 degree turn-around from how GOWK works. But honestly, it would require 4 characters to be added to the SSM glossary text. It would change from "...hit by a melee attack,..." to "...hit by a non-melee attack,...". Could be chalked up to a simple typo or editing error. :P

EDIT: Then, regular Soresu Style could be worded "When hit by a non-melee attack from an adjacent enemy,..."

Author:  Gemini1179 [ Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Soresu Style Mastery works on anything???

LoboStele wrote:
Even beyond the problems of GOWK being an easy piece to stall with. Just keeping track of Djem So interactions can add an extra 5-10 minutes to a game, lol.


Honestly, I don't really buy the idea that GOWK users will use him to 'stall'. I get that you could, but there is almost no reason to. In fact, I doubt using GOWK is much different then using a CS Yoda squad built around saves (which I've done). I think you've hit the nail on the head with Djem So though. Once GMLS comes out, GMLS vs Djem So characters (especially Anakin CoN) is going to be a headache any way you slice it.

As for how I'd 'fix' GOWK, change the save to 16 (or 18). He'll run out of FP twice as fast, and I don't know about anyone else, but I don't roll 16+ on my saves that often. Maybe someone could do a test with a GOWK squad vs a NR Mara/Kyle squad with SSM saves needing 16. I'm at work now, otherwise I'd give it a go.

Author:  LoboStele [ Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Soresu Style Mastery works on anything???

Gemini1179 wrote:
Honestly, I don't really buy the idea that GOWK users will use him to 'stall'. I get that you could, but there is almost no reason to.


If you're a semi-decent player at GenCon championships, and you run up against one of the best of the best, there will be every reason to 'stall', because it will gain you a win. That's the concern here. I still think it will be somewhat difficult to pull that off, as the more you play that way, the more gambit points your opponent will likely rack up, but if the staller plays it well, it should be no more than 20-25 points by the end of 45-50 minutes. That's not too hard to pick up a single kill worth 25-30 points in the last round or two with GOWK leading the charge when he'll be nearly impossible to kill at that point in the game.

Author:  billiv15 [ Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Soresu Style Mastery works on anything???

LoboStele wrote:
Gemini1179 wrote:
Honestly, I don't really buy the idea that GOWK users will use him to 'stall'. I get that you could, but there is almost no reason to.


If you're a semi-decent player at GenCon championships, and you run up against one of the best of the best, there will be every reason to 'stall', because it will gain you a win. That's the concern here. I still think it will be somewhat difficult to pull that off, as the more you play that way, the more gambit points your opponent will likely rack up, but if the staller plays it well, it should be no more than 20-25 points by the end of 45-50 minutes. That's not too hard to pick up a single kill worth 25-30 points in the last round or two with GOWK leading the charge when he'll be nearly impossible to kill at that point in the game.


You don't just have to "stall" anyways. In my test games, I pretty well able to keep a gambit presence most of the rounds, attack with General Obi, and still have him not die in that hour time frame. The bigger concern to me, is that as a good player, I don't have the opportunity to "out play" my opponent any longer. I can simply lose to an ok player, who just plays a little "cautious" because I can't kill GOWK in time.

I promise you, given what I have seen so far, if this errata is in place, and GOWK is not banned, odds are very high I will be playing GOWK. I am confident in winning the mirror, so look out. You better have some really strong hate, learn to play it better than me, or hope I have some really bad luck. :)

Author:  LoboStele [ Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Soresu Style Mastery works on anything???

And this scenario becomes worse and worse depending on the map. If the GOWK player is running a map where they can be fairly well protected in gambit, then the game is pretty much as good as won. The only real challenge will be on maps like Cristophsis, Taris, or Death Star, where the gambit zone is fairly open, and shooters can have multiple rounds of unloading on GOWK or whatever support pieces he puts out in the middle. Again, get a map like Throne Room or Ruined Base...those are easy ones. Possibly Train Station, Bespin, or Mos Eisley (depending on opponent's door control)...any maps gambit zones that force an opponent to get in close are going to kill any hopes that a non-melee squad has of plinking away at GOWK from a distance. If the opposing squad doesn't have good door control, then R2-Astromech will cause even more havoc.

Author:  billiv15 [ Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Soresu Style Mastery works on anything???

LoboStele wrote:
And this scenario becomes worse and worse depending on the map. If the GOWK player is running a map where they can be fairly well protected in gambit, then the game is pretty much as good as won. The only real challenge will be on maps like Cristophsis, Taris, or Death Star, where the gambit zone is fairly open, and shooters can have multiple rounds of unloading on GOWK or whatever support pieces he puts out in the middle. Again, get a map like Throne Room or Ruined Base...those are easy ones. Possibly Train Station, Bespin, or Mos Eisley (depending on opponent's door control)...any maps gambit zones that force an opponent to get in close are going to kill any hopes that a non-melee squad has of plinking away at GOWK from a distance. If the opposing squad doesn't have good door control, then R2-Astromech will cause even more havoc.


Agreed, but I will say this, I lost to Hunter running GOWK with my Han Cannon variant on Crystophis, and I had a Golan taking gambit as well, but it didn't matter. I still couldn't land enough damage to take out his two JWMs, his Dash or his General Obi before he got to me.

Author:  Gemini1179 [ Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Soresu Style Mastery works on anything???

billiv15 wrote:

Agreed, but I will say this, I lost to Hunter running GOWK with my Han Cannon variant on Crystophis, and I had a Golan taking gambit as well, but it didn't matter. I still couldn't land enough damage to take out his two JWMs, his Dash or his General Obi before he got to me.


I've not yet heard any comment on my suggestion of simply changing the save on SSM to 16 or 18 and how that might affect things. Seriously, I think it's a simple enough change.

Author:  billiv15 [ Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Soresu Style Mastery works on anything???

Gemini1179 wrote:

I've not yet heard any comment on my suggestion of simply changing the save on SSM to 16 or 18 and how that might affect things. Seriously, I think it's a simple enough change.


Well let's see then:)

Obi now fails his saves at:
50%, 15%, 2.3% (1.2% with dead Qui-Gon)

With your idea it goes to:
75%, 38%, 13% (2.6% with dead Qui-Gon)

I don't think its a bad idea at all really. I think it works similar to my idea of making it cost a FP, but its still a slightly stronger ability than I have made it.

For example, with mine, making it a Force Power, means that Force Immunity can get around it. It also means that he must always use at least 1 FP and has access to one less reroll.

So for example:

He would fail at:
50%, 15%, (2.3% with dead Qui-Gon).

With yours, he still has a 25% chance to avoid the damage even without even using a FP, and to me, that's still an issue. One of the issues is that its hard to run Obi out of FPs, since he doesn't have much to do with them (occasional force push, and maybe a knight speed here or there). Forcing him to use one to use Soresu makes him much less of a problem to run out, and allows the opponent to actually have a strategy to take him out. With yours, a lucky roller still can take the upper hand.

So to me, if we are going to change it, I would prefer my idea for competitive play. That does not mean however, I think yours wouldn't be a good fit (and btw, many many people have suggested the idea of changing the save to 16 before you).

Author:  Gemini1179 [ Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Soresu Style Mastery works on anything???

billiv15 wrote:
So to me, if we are going to change it, I would prefer my idea for competitive play. That does not mean however, I think yours wouldn't be a good fit (and btw, many many people have suggested the idea of changing the save to 16 before you).


Not quite sure what that's all about... never claimed I was the first, nor was this the first time that I did mention it, but whatever. No harm, no foul. :P

I get where you are coming from for competitive play. Just seems to be a bigger change by making it cost a FP. Djem So doesn't require one, Makashi, etc. It would really only help Force Immune characters against this particular character, while Dooku of Serenno, et al would still be able to use their abilities against them which would probably create more community confusion.

Can you really see Qui-Gonn Jin JM being a problem with Obi at 150 points though? That's 90 points right there, and you throw in Rex, you've got 27 left and 3 activations. Makes Obi nigh indestructable, but Qui-Gonn has limited damage output and Rex is fragile and doesn't have Accurate.

Honestly, this kind of thing, while it may appear academic, may take some time to see the full impact and be able to respond in the best possible way.

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