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 Post subject: Thrawn VS Revan
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:10 pm 
Unnamed Stormtrooper
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If I'm playing with Darth Revan and one of my opponents is playing with Thrawn, who chooses who goes first? In, two player you could just use the respective roles, but surely there is another way to handle it in a game with more than 2 players? It seems wrong that the effects would just be ignored and the rolls would be used to determine since that would mean the person playing without any of those minis might be able to roll better and go first. Please PM me or post here if you know the answer, this one has really been bugging me. And for no reason here's a jawa :jawa:


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 Post subject: Re: Thrawn VS Revan
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:17 pm 
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There are no official rules for Multiplayer, so whatever you houserule it is fine. I would say it would be whoever rolled highest with Master Tacticion that decides who goes first.

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 Post subject: Re: Thrawn VS Revan
PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:23 am 
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Yeah, this has been rehashed a few dozen times.

IN normal games, just roll like normal.

IN Multi, all players roll, but only those players with MT actually count less they both roll a 1 (seen it happen), aka one of the MT using players will go first unless they Both roll 1's.

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 Post subject: Re: Thrawn VS Revan
PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 5:25 am 
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Fox wrote:
Yeah, this has been rehashed a few dozen times.

IN normal games, just roll like normal.

IN Multi, all players roll, but only those players with MT actually count less they both roll a 1 (seen it happen), aka one of the MT using players will go first unless they Both roll 1's.


But if they BOTH roll 1's, then they must reroll. No matter what, someone w/ MT will always decide who goes first.

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 Post subject: Re: Thrawn VS Revan
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 12:30 pm 
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dvader831 wrote:
Fox wrote:
Yeah, this has been rehashed a few dozen times.

IN normal games, just roll like normal.

IN Multi, all players roll, but only those players with MT actually count less they both roll a 1 (seen it happen), aka one of the MT using players will go first unless they Both roll 1's.


But if they BOTH roll 1's, then they must reroll. No matter what, someone w/ MT will always decide who goes first.


Hence why I refuse to play multiplayer games where all tied inits are rerolled. Has to be the dumbest idea ever....

You should always play that only ties at the top are rerolled, and only against each other. So in the case of the MT's rolling 1s, MT fails, and the high roller wins init. There is absolutely no logically reason to why all ties must be rerolled in multiplayer games.

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 Post subject: Re: Thrawn VS Revan
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 12:38 pm 
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I agree that there is no logical reason... But the goal is accomplished. The goal is that it should be random. I understand your aversion to the idea but it all comes out in the wash. There will be little difference statistically between games where they reroll all rolls and where only the ties are rerolled.


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 Post subject: Re: Thrawn VS Revan
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 12:59 pm 
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hex1206 wrote:
I agree that there is no logical reason... But the goal is accomplished. The goal is that it should be random. I understand your aversion to the idea but it all comes out in the wash. There will be little difference statistically between games where they reroll all rolls and where only the ties are rerolled.


Trust me, this comes from playing multi player games, its not fun. If you have the right abilities in play (recon and anticipation) init can take 5 minutes just to figure out who won. Its a complete waste of time.

Problem 2 - Guy 1 and 2 tie with 18s. Guy 3 rolls a 6 and has Ozzel - Guy three has to reroll his init.

Problem 3 - Tie at the top with 18s, Guy three rolls a 2. Guy three gets to reroll his init just like the other two guys, even though he should have lost init by a lot - this never happens in a 2 player game and shouldn't in a multi.

Problem 4 - This is the worst. Guy 1 rolls a 20 and has Mon Mothma, gets reserves and wins init, but guy 2-3 tie with 4s, guess what happens to guy 1.....

I repeat, there should be no rerolls other than between two players to decide the init winner. All other ties remain ties - there is nothing in the rules that prevents this, and nothing that suggests the most common ruling (remember, multi player rules are not official) is the way it should be.

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 Post subject: Re: Thrawn VS Revan
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 2:05 pm 
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The problem with the objection is that it doesn't change any of the probabilities. Everything is just as likely to happen if everyone rerolls as it were during the initial roll. I don't prefer to play where everyone rerolls when there is a tie but there is no logical reason to object. I merely prefer to cut to the chase and roll as few dice as possible. But the point remains that the distinction is completely arbitrary. For every "problem" you cited, there is another side to the coin. What about the guy with mon mothma who rolled a 6, but on the reroll, hits 20? It's the exact same situation but in reverse. The only difference is that obviously you would want the rules to function in a way that permits you the greatest advantage. Rerolling all dice lends itself to that since it offers more of a look at what "could have been." Whereas the rules set where only ties reroll offers no view into what could have been but wasn't. It's just like the coin flipping probability misconception. If i flip a coin 20 times and get tails all 20 times, the odds that the next flip will be heads is.... 50%. Past occurances don't alter probabilities. It really doesn't make a difference which way you play because, statistically speaking, nothing will be different. The only quasi-problem is that, like I said, one method more often makes people feel like they've been cheated. You have, however, correctly solved the problem which is if you don't like it you choose not to participate, you just don't want to make the judgment that one system is superior to the other.


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 Post subject: Re: Thrawn VS Revan
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 2:38 pm 
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Wrong. Its not just about probability, its about abuse. Simple answer for you.

Run Qui-Gon JM and Quin-lan Vos in a squad for a multiplayer game. Add in Mon Mothma, a RBSV, and Kazdan Paratus. Now have 2-3 players using recon. See how long it takes to get an init done.

Also, its about fairness to the initial rolls. In a two player game, if you roll a 2 and your opponent higher, you lose. You don't get the benefit of a reroll, where in multiplayer, you do. It absolutely changed the probability of init.

Look at the initial situation of two MTs if its not clear. In a regular game, you always have the chance that the MT player rolls a 1. In multiplayer with two MTs, you have the chance that both might roll a 1, but quess what, MT works on the reroll. So your chance of winning init (even if its tiny less than 1/400), is completely gone. That is absolutely a different percentage than how the game is normally played.

I understand probability, this has nothing to do with coin flips. Here's what you are missing. Things like reserves (which are generally 1/20 chance) are costed into a mini based on the likelihood of it happening. In a standard game, the only way you can lose your roll, is if the one other die roll ties you (or two in some cases). So you have a slightly lower than 1/20 rate of return for the investment. In multiplayer, you will lose it, if anyone on the table ties. Now, sure, you have another 1/20 chance to get it again on the next roll, but its not the same percentage as a regular game. Its actually a much lower percentage, precisely because the rate of ties is so much higher in a multiplayer game than in a standard skirmish. In MP games, your rate of return for things like reserves is lowered by each additional player at the table, and by each person who also has recon/anticipation. Here is why statistically speaking I am right.

Make yourself a chart. Let's begin with the simplest, 2 players, no recon/anticipation, and one reserve character.
1/20 is your chance of getting the number you need, but your opponent can tie. How many die combos are there in two die rolls? 400 combinations. Now, how many result in a tie, in the 1/20 chance? 1 combination. So the real odds of hitting reserves is about 19/400, not 1/20. Now, you can get it in the reroll again, you have to add in the number of tie options, and then another 19/400, so we are getting to infinitesimal differences now.

Now, let's add in recon. Recon for the opposing player of reserves, specifically. What are our odds of reserves now? Well, our opponent has two chances to tie us, so our odds go down again. Its much more complicated here, but I think you can clearly see that its not the same as the above situation. It will not be 19/400.

Now, extend this to multiplayer, and add in multiple recon/anticipation and reserve numbers. The odds are nowhere near 1/20. For example, if say two players tie with 19s and one has recon who rolls a 6 as his second roll, and a third player rolls a 6 with Ozzel, player two, who would rather not grant reserves, chooses his 6, and forces all players to reroll. Now imagine if 3 players had recon. Player four who rolls reserves, now has the possibility of massive amounts of ties, to prevent his reserves, and almost every player can choose to tie with someone else to force another reroll.

What happens is init takes forever, and MT becomes abusive with two on the same team in a team game, recon and anticipation are overpowered and undercosted on their minis, and the game breaks down. If you like that then fine, but I prefer the odds to run similar to a normal mini game. Hence why I don't play that way.

And by the way, next time you want to give a statistics lesson to someone, make sure you have actually done the math.

I prefer to keep my multiplayer games as close to the general rules as I can, and I have often found that this one has lots of options for abuse.

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 Post subject: Re: Thrawn VS Revan
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 3:56 pm 
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Question answered. Feel free to take this discussion elsewhere, as there is highly unlikely to ever be an official answer. Perhaps lighten the tone as well.

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