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 Post subject: Twin against draw fire vs bombad vs pheromones vs . . .
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:42 am 
Master of the Order
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Let's see if I got this right.

I seem to remember the ruling is that if one attack goes into a target, it's second must go there too.

Based on that -

draw fire: you get a save for the first attack, not for it's twin. Either place the first attack goes the second one follows.

pheromones: The first attack and twin attack both get a save. It only cancels an attack, it doesn't change target, so either one can get canceled.

Bombad: This one is tricky since it already breaks targeting rules. I can't remember the ruling here.

and just for grins -

Killing a character with the first shot and they come back via a CE (Leia HC, Poggle, etc): The twin can go into the same character as long as they are still a legal target.


So what is the Bombad ruling, and did I get the other 3 right? (And are there other examples related to this that I forgot?)


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 Post subject: Re: Twin against draw fire vs bombad vs pheromones vs . . .
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:54 am 
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TimmerB123 wrote:
draw fire: you get a save for the first attack, not for it's twin. Either place the first attack goes the second one follows.


That's correct. Draw Fire changes the target of the attack, and both attacks of the Twin Attack must be against the same target.

Quote:
pheromones: The first attack and twin attack both get a save. It only cancels an attack, it doesn't change target, so either one can get canceled.


Also correct, although I actually didn't think it was before now. From the FAQ entry for Twin Attack:

Quote:
Q: If Prince Xizor uses Pheromones to cancel the first attack, can the second still be made against him?
A: Yes.



Quote:
Bombad: This one is tricky since it already breaks targeting rules. I can't remember the ruling here.


I'm pretty sure that both attacks would have to be on the same character still. It is a little weird since Bombad actually makes it a non-targeted attack against a different character.

Quote:
and just for grins -

Killing a character with the first shot and they come back via a CE (Leia HC, Poggle, etc): The twin can go into the same character as long as they are still a legal target.


I believe that's correct, since the character isn't actually defeated; it sets up again INSTEAD of being defeated. You would get the Twin on a character that makes Avoid Defeat saves for the same reason.

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Last edited by Echo on Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Twin against draw fire vs bombad vs pheromones vs . . .
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:59 am 
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Bombad Gungan can't be used against a Twin Attack.

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 Post subject: Re: Twin against draw fire vs bombad vs pheromones vs . . .
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:15 am 
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Sithborg wrote:
Bombad Gungan can't be used against a Twin Attack.


Cool - at least it follows suit


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 Post subject: Re: Twin against draw fire vs bombad vs pheromones vs . . .
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:02 pm 
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Bombad Gungan is unique, never to be replicated again. It follows no precedent, and sets none. If it followed suit, it would likely fall under Pheremones, but again, Bombad Gungan is a rules anomaly.

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 Post subject: Re: Twin against draw fire vs bombad vs pheromones vs . . .
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:10 pm 
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Sithborg wrote:
Bombad Gungan can't be used against a Twin Attack.

wait this is the first i have heard of BG not being able to be use vs Twin attack?
It means Bombad Gungan is pretty much useless now? I think your wrong on this one. Twin attack still targets I dont see how it just ignores BG.


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 Post subject: Re: Twin against draw fire vs bombad vs pheromones vs . . .
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:17 pm 
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http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/ ... #451450429

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 Post subject: Re: Twin against draw fire vs bombad vs pheromones vs . . .
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:20 pm 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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I still dont get it.
From what you say

Twin just dont work

From what jason said.
Per Twin, the Twin Attack is made against the same character as the first. There's no second save regardless of the outcome of the first save, and no way for the Twin to affect anyone but the character the original affected.

If they attack themselfs they would just twin themselfs or twin whoever

Which one is it.


Last edited by jonnyb815 on Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Twin against draw fire vs bombad vs pheromones vs . . .
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:30 pm 
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No, they still Twin Attack against whoever Bombad Gungan redirected the attack to. You can't redirect a Twin Attack if the first attack made it past Bombad Gungan, though.

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 Post subject: Re: Twin against draw fire vs bombad vs pheromones vs . . .
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:54 pm 
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Sithborg wrote:
No, they still Twin Attack against whoever Bombad Gungan redirected the attack to. You can't redirect a Twin Attack if the first attack made it past Bombad Gungan, though.

That's what I was thinking. The free attack granted by Twin does not target, and thus is not subject to Bombad Gungan, which is triggered when JarJar is targetted.

It's just like the Draw-Fire-vs-Twin scenario: once the save is made and the target is established, the attacker makes 2 attacks (the original and the Twin) vs that target. Once another attack (ie, Double from someone like Rex/Dash) is declared, you can Draw-Fire again.

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 Post subject: Re: Twin against draw fire vs bombad vs pheromones vs . . .
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:40 am 
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@ Sithborg, you are saying that the word "redirect" in the glossary definition for Bombad Gungan changes the target of the original attack correct?


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 Post subject: Re: Twin against draw fire vs bombad vs pheromones vs . . .
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:40 am 
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Yes.

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 Post subject: Re: Twin against draw fire vs bombad vs pheromones vs . . .
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:46 am 
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That doesn't seem quite right. From the FAQ:

Quote:
Q: What exactly does it mean when the attack or ability is "redirected". Does the other character become the target?
A: No. It becomes a non-targeted attack on the selected character, so something like Draw Fire would no longer be possible after redirecting for example.


You still get the Twin Attack, because even though Twin Attack says that you attack the same target twice and you're not technically targeting the character, it's still "a target". As far as I can tell it's just a weird wording issue. The precedent, though, is that Lightsaber Sweep doesn't technically target (they're non-targeted attacks on all adjacent enemies) you still get Twin Attack on it, per the Glossary.

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 Post subject: Re: Twin against draw fire vs bombad vs pheromones vs . . .
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:30 pm 
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Yeah, it is. Especially since Twin Attack follows the targetting precedent of the initial attack (ie the Twin on a Sweep is still considered to not follow targetting rules).

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 Post subject: Re: Twin against draw fire vs bombad vs pheromones vs . . .
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 11:05 pm 
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Sithborg wrote:
Yeah, it is. Especially since Twin Attack follows the targetting precedent of the initial attack (ie the Twin on a Sweep is still considered to not follow targetting rules).

So lightsaber sweep with twin ignores Jar-Jars, BG.


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