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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:48 pm 
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swinefeld wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
Sithborg wrote:
I have been thinking about this for a while. The big problem with my original thinking of process of leaving and entering a square being simultaneous is the precedent of Snare Rifle on an AoO. Snare Rifle on the AoO interrupts the movement, the character never leaving the square. This obviously throws a wrench into how Strafe would work and my original thought on the simultaneous movement. Given a theoretical combination of a character with Snare Rifle/Clamp with Jedi/Force Attuned Reflexes, obviously, the conditions for Strafe would not be met, so the AoO must come first. So I am changing my original answer:

The AoO of Jedi Reflexes would happen before the Strafe Attack if you start adjacent.


I kinda don't get the rational. By this rational, the Snare Rifle ruling was incorrect.

Strafe was around in Rebel Storm and has functioned the same the entire time. (whether or not people understood it and played it right) Snare Rifle came out much, much later.

It's the same exact logic loop - If the character never leaves the square, how was the AoO created?

It seems to me in the case of Snare Rifle, that the moving character should be "snared" in the space he's moving into, not out of.


How would that work if the AoO piece could not be defeated by the strafe attack? The square is occupied by an enemy, and the strafer can't stop there. That's the logic I draw from it.


We are talking about 2 different abilities here - and how they interact with AoOs.

The only way what you are talking about could happen is if a piece had BOTH Jedi Reflexes AND Snare Rifle (I don't think that will ever happen) - and THEN gets an AoO on a strafer.

What I was referring to was a regular AoO with Snare Rifle on a non-strafer - so there is no possibility of a space being double occupied.


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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:52 pm 
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TimmerB123 wrote:
It's the same exact logic loop - If the character never leaves the square, how was the AoO created?.


Because that's not how AoOs work. AoOs happen BEFORE the character leaves the square, so something that stops movement (like Snare Rifle or Clamp) would take place before you've left the square, leaving you in the original square.

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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:19 pm 
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Echo wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
It's the same exact logic loop - If the character never leaves the square, how was the AoO created?.


Because that's not how AoOs work. AoOs happen BEFORE the character leaves the square, so something that stops movement (like Snare Rifle or Clamp) would take place before you've left the square, leaving you in the original square.


Yes, but that's my point, in that clamp and snare rifle came around much later.

Regardless - it is getting off track a bit.

Even if AoOs happen before you leave the square - so does the strafe attack. Once again - simultaneous effects.

With snare rifle - it interrupts the movement, meaning the COMPLETION of the movement. The movement had to start, or there would be no AoO.

With strafe, the attack happens BEFORE you enter the square. Thus simultaneous at least.

So they are different. I don't think you can use snare rifle as a president for this ruling.

Strafe works differently.


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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:19 pm 
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TimmerB123 wrote:
So they are different. I don't think you can use snare rifle as a president for this ruling.


You can use similarity rather than identicalness (???) for precident just so you end up with similar resolution for roughly similar interactions. This has been done before.

(Personally, I see the interaction as unique and pretty much a coin-flip of "evidence" for either option, and no significant gameplay impact with either choice so it's a big to-do about nothing. Design intent would probably be the strongest factor if I were deciding.)

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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:03 pm 
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My big thing is, if Snare Rifle is used on such an AoO, the conditions for Strafe would never occur. That is the big deciding factor to me (not that I foresee such an occurence ever being made). Snare Rifle and it's interactions are enough to highly suggest the breaking up of the movement.

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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:15 pm 
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Once you make a final ruling Scott, I will 100% support it even if I don't agree. This is a very tricky situation.

The main hangup IMO is that if I start adjacent to you (any character), I will get to strafe them before I actually move. If this wasn't the case then I would think that the AoO would occur first, but since this is the case it is the main item that shows that strafe could come before an AoO is generated.

Which basically all stems from Rob/Gary (at least I think it was before Nickname) ruling that you make the attack before you enter the square (so that the basilisk war droid could get momentum from Mandalore because you have to be adjacent to get it and if you were occupying the same square (original strafe wording on the card) then you wouldn't be adjacent).

actually snare rifle and how it interacts almost show the opposite.

For instance, if I am standing next to zuckster and declare I am moving away and you take your AoO and hit me, I can still use Deadeye or Double attack since I didn't move. How did you get an AoO if I didn't move? How can I get double if I did? I didn't agree with that particular ruling either but it is what it is and if I get glued (and haven't moved) then I do technically meet the requirements for Deadeye and or Double, etc.

So if I have declared I am going to move (which creates the AoO, doesn't that also initiate the strafe?)

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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:32 am 
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Strafe allows you to attack outside of the normal sequence of a turn, provided conditions are met. I think it makes sense to resolve all effects that could prevent that condition being met before rolling the attack.

A question along the same lines: if I tell you i am leaving a square adjacent to your character with my char who doesn't have flight, do I have to declare which space I'm entering before you decide whether or not to make an AoO?


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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:21 am 
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Archdeluxe wrote:
Strafe allows you to attack outside of the normal sequence of a turn, provided conditions are met. I think it makes sense to resolve all effects that could prevent that condition being met before rolling the attack.

A question along the same lines: if I tell you i am leaving a square adjacent to your character with my char who doesn't have flight, do I have to declare which space I'm entering before you decide whether or not to make an AoO?


so you are saying that if I strafe something that could kill me during the attack (riposte, Lightsaber Combat Expert, Self-destruct, etc) then I shouldn't be allowed to because I might die before I have moved?

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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:05 pm 
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Clearly those are all effects generated by your attack, so no. They are contingent on you actually making an attack, in the same way that Strafe is contingent on your character actually entering the defenders square(as stated on the card and in the glossary.) These rules are not infallible, and I think this convergence of rules has exposed a fallacy in the glossary for Strafe. We as a community should try to resolve it in a manner that is fair and as consistent as possible with the designers' intent.


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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:29 pm 
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Quote:
Attack of Opportunity
Timing: A character makes an attack of opportunity in response to an enemy’s movement. The attack takes place when the enemy is about to leave the adjacent square, but before it actually does. Pause the movement and make the attack; if the enemy is not defeated, it continues moving.

This suggests to me that the acting player declares his movement (including speed modifiers, force leap and such, if strafe will be used, landing space etc) and then everything stops while the AoO is resolved.
Quote:
Strafe Attack
This character can move up to double speed and attack each enemy whose space it enters instead of using the targeting rules. Roll each attack just before this character enters that enemy’s space.

When is just before entering the enemy's space? That wording implies to me that everything else (aside from resolving the strafe attack chain) has been resolved at that point.

In any case, I don't really care what the final ruling is, as long as it is documented and clear. At least until I end up on the bad end of this interaction. :P


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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:50 pm 
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I agree swine.

As long as there is clear documentation and everyone is on the same page. The rules should be enforced the same at all locations with no surprise rulings anywhere. We have seen this too many times in the past where people get upset because something doesn't work at a regional or at gencon as it did back home (or even at a different regional).

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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:00 pm 
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A possible solution would be to establish a clear precident that players and designers alike can keep in mind concerning movement. The 3 possibilities that I can visualize are these:

1. A sliding motion. The moving piece slides gradually into the adjacent space. In this example the piece would "enter" the new space before "leaving" the old one. The problem i see with this is that the piece could bee seen to be in 2 spaces at the same time for entering and exiting effects.

2. Instant translation. The piece is instantly translated from one square to the next. This is kinda what were dealing with now where we have entering and exiting occuring simultaneously, I think. I think that this simplistic approach is inadequate to deal with the situation we have here and others that could arise in the future.

3. The lift and place. In this example a piece is lifted from its current square and placed down into an adjacent square. Here, the "exiting" occurs before the "entering". This allows for the establishment of an order of precidence making it superior to example 2 and avoids the double-occupancy in example 1. I also feel that this more nuanced approach could give designers more control in the future.

Just a thought and I could be overlooking something totally obvious.


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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:15 pm 
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After working on this for awhile, I think I have a situation under current game rules (no JR) that somewhat address the fear of not moving (or intending to move) and making a strafe attack

E=Empty Square
K= Kel-Dor
A=AniStap
S=designated end square

EK
AE
SE

You must also assume Commander Ashoka is on your squad. I declare that I am going to strafe and fly over the Kel-dor diagonal over the Kel-dor and that the square S is my end spot. Before I start moving before I enter the Kel-dors square I strafe attack him and kill him (still in square A). I declare rolling cleave and move to S. I then declare that I am not moving any further as I am already in the designated ending square. I have strafed a piece that I did not move over (and I don't take any SD damage either but that is beside the point).

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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:32 am 
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Great example Urbanjedi. Do you think that the defender in this case would have any grounds to argue that since you never entered the defender's space, you were ineligible to make the attack?


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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:09 pm 
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In that example, I don't see why you wouldn't take any sd damage. If its because of rolling cleave, that doesn't make any sence to me and would be more upset over that ruling than any they could make on this post. If its because you strafed thus in the kel dor space then I would argue that if the strafe atk happans before the movement then so would the sd. If you strafe a bomb, you should take sd damage, period. Now you could just move ani stap to square s and shoot the keldor.

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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:35 pm 
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sthlrd2 wrote:
In that example, I don't see why you wouldn't take any sd damage. If its because of rolling cleave, that doesn't make any sence to me and would be more upset over that ruling than any they could make on this post. If its because you strafed thus in the kel dor space then I would argue that if the strafe atk happans before the movement then so would the sd. If you strafe a bomb, you should take sd damage, period. Now you could just move ani stap to square s and shoot the keldor.


Resolving Effects section of the FAQ. They both happen "when defeated", so simultaneous.

I am not going to change my current ruling at the moment. This is something that is going on my list of things to work on in the FAQ, however. It will be a while, since I am still in the "figuring out what is missing" mode.

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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:05 pm 
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So the AoO happens before the strafe?

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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:13 pm 
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Yes. Like Nickname said, it is a pit of a coin toss. It is definately something I'm going to go over in the FAQ I'm working on, any change will quite possibly be. Swinefield's interepretations seem pretty spot on to me as the original intent of AoO's.

I don't see it changing, but I most certainly won't change it during Regional season. I'm going to try to have my expanded FAQ done by Gencon, and if it does end up changing, I will at least post here (in addition to all other stuff I will be adding).

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 Post subject: Re: Strafe vs Jedi (or force-attuned) reflexes
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:16 am 
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urbanjedi wrote:
So the AoO happens before the strafe?


Sithborg wrote:
Yes.


Makes sense to me. Leaving my square happens before I get to the line separating the squares. When I'm at the line, I can now enter the next square.

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