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Jacen + Vong Sense
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Author:  Ruhk [ Sun Jan 02, 2011 1:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Jacen + Vong Sense

Situation:

Jacen and an Ossus Vong on a NR squad vs Thrawn and Palps SL on another.

The ossus vong betrays to the Imperial squad. It is in the Ysalmiri bubble, Jacen is not. Can Jacen use lightning on the Vong?

I'm fairly confident that the answer is yes, but there is a possibility I'm wrong. Reasoning: Vongsense states that he can ignore YV immunity, affinity changes the faction, thus the Ossu is NR not YV, thus Jacen can not ignore. Further thought, Jacen can ignore YV immunity, but not the Force Immunity granted by the Ysalmiri bubble.

Author:  The_Celestial_Warrior [ Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jacen + Vong Sense

Well currently, since there is no Special Ability such as Wookie that specifically defines Yuzaahn Vong, then it is referring to the Yuzaahn Vong Faction. I imagine the intent would be for it to work on Vong characters within the New Republic as well, but until that is clearly defined in the glossary...

An interesting scenario, but if Yuzaahn Vong was defined then Jacen would be able to use Lightning on that Ossus Guardiana as Ysalamiri merely grants Force Immunity which Jacen could thus ignore on Vong characters.

I imagine it could be argued that the Far Outsider, already having Yuzaahn Vong Warrior, would be affected by Jacen's Vongsense regardless of what faction he currently is in.

Author:  dalsiandon [ Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jacen + Vong Sense

hum....I would think that in the logical sense it would work, but in the terms of game mechanics I would think not.

Author:  Sithborg [ Sun Jan 02, 2011 8:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jacen + Vong Sense

Both Vong Hunter and Vongsense apply to characters of the Yuuzhan Vong faction.

Author:  urbanjedi [ Sun Jan 02, 2011 8:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jacen + Vong Sense

Does it still work in a Ysamilirir bubble? JAcen outside the bubble and the Vong in the bubble

Author:  drkjedi35 [ Sun Jan 02, 2011 8:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jacen + Vong Sense

Also remember that even though an Ossus Guardian is in a New Republic squad, he is still in the YV faction. His affinity for NR does not change his faction.

Roy

Author:  urbanjedi [ Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jacen + Vong Sense

Actually if he is in a NR squad he is NR. Affinity will change your faction if you are in that squad.

Author:  The_Celestial_Warrior [ Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jacen + Vong Sense

urbanjedi wrote:
Does it still work in a Ysamilirir bubble? JAcen outside the bubble and the Vong in the bubble



IF the character inside the bubble were still of the Yuzaahn Vong faction, then yes. Ysalamiri simply grants Force Immunity and prevents characters within it from spending Force Points.

Vongsense ignores Force Immunity, regardless of the source, of any Yuzaahn Vong character.

Author:  urbanjedi [ Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jacen + Vong Sense

That's what I thought although I have no idea how you would get a Vong faction character in the force bubble with Jacen on the other squad.

Author:  Ruhk [ Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jacen + Vong Sense

So, to sum up;

Jacen's Vongsense works against Force Immunity only on those of the YV faction.

Thus, in a NR vs NR, one side having Jacen, and one side having a YV Ossus Guardian, Jacen could NOT use his Vongsense to Force Lightning the YVOG, because the YV is now a New Republic character.

Correct?

Author:  LoboStele [ Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jacen + Vong Sense

Correct.

And also for that same reason, the example given in the first post, Jacen would not be able to use Lightning on the Vong Guardian either, because it initially started as NR faction.

That's actually a rather interesting interaction, and I'd bet it's one that the designers didn't think about, lol. Oh well. Should happen on a pretty limited scale.

Author:  billiv15 [ Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jacen + Vong Sense

LoboStele wrote:
Correct.

And also for that same reason, the example given in the first post, Jacen would not be able to use Lightning on the Vong Guardian either, because it initially started as NR faction.

That's actually a rather interesting interaction, and I'd bet it's one that the designers didn't think about, lol. Oh well. Should happen on a pretty limited scale.


I'd say it's one that there is nothing you could do about it neatly. WotC created the odd interactions that involve faction changes via affinity. It wasn't worth it for us to try to change it for one specific interaction, when the game is full of similar kinds of oddities already.

Author:  The_Celestial_Warrior [ Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jacen + Vong Sense

billiv15 wrote:
LoboStele wrote:
Correct.

And also for that same reason, the example given in the first post, Jacen would not be able to use Lightning on the Vong Guardian either, because it initially started as NR faction.

That's actually a rather interesting interaction, and I'd bet it's one that the designers didn't think about, lol. Oh well. Should happen on a pretty limited scale.


I'd say it's one that there is nothing you could do about it neatly. WotC created the odd interactions that involve faction changes via affinity. It wasn't worth it for us to try to change it for one specific interaction, when the game is full of similar kinds of oddities already.


If the intent was for it to work, then simply add Yuzaahn Vong to the glossary. I don't think that's anything to monumental.

Also, what about the above interaction using a Far Outsider? Seeing as he has a Special Ability that might define him outisde his faction as Yuzaahn Vong, I could see the argument that Jacen could use Lightning on him.

Edit: Lol, Nevermind as that interaction could never exist.

Author:  LoboStele [ Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jacen + Vong Sense

The SA 'Yuuzhan Vong Warrior' would not be the same thing as an SA 'Yuuzhan Vong' even if it did exist. Just like the SA 'Lightsaber Duelist' is not the same as 'Lightsaber'. Besides, precedent set by these types of abilities is that it references the Faction, and not an SA, unless it specifically says so.

And just adding 'Yuuzhan Vong' to the Glossary really wouldn't help, since most of the pieces don't have a 'Yuuzhan Vong' SA. Would have to be errata'd onto all the older YV cards, like they did with Chewbacca, and honestly, that's probably not really worth it for such a limited interaction.

Author:  Grand Moff Boris [ Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jacen + Vong Sense

Vongsense was meant to be a flavorful counter to Yuuzhan Vong, not something to strictly circumvent all instances of Force Immunity. I don't know that it would have been possible to anticipate this interaction until it occurred, and it didn't happen in playtesting.

Author:  billiv15 [ Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jacen + Vong Sense

The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
If the intent was for it to work, then simply add Yuzaahn Vong to the glossary. I don't think that's anything to monumental.

I don't know if that was the intent or not. I'm pretty sure the intent was for Jacen to be able to use lightning against Vong armies. A NR Vong figure isn't really a Vong army and isn't what Jacen would have ever fought as an NR character. He might have fought them as a Sith Lord (don't think he did, but not certain). But either way, it's just one of those odd interactions that the game contains.

Another easy example, Princess Leia in a NR squad via original Jacen. Even if his sister brings a Rebel Han, there are no Rebels in the squad for her to use her CE on. It's exactly the same situation here. Why should we fix it in one case, while ignoring that it's consistent with many other things in the game? Yuzaahn Vong is a faction, I am not interested in making a change that defines it as something else, I don't think the game needs that kind of adjustment, when it would create all kinds of other inconsistencies to do so.

In addition to the "Rebel" issue, we would have to also adjust the name of "Sith" for the purposes of Sith hunter, "Mando" for the purposes of Mando Hunter, "Old Republic Hunter" and on and on and on. Its not nearly as simple as making on small insignificant change Brad.

Further, we'd also have to issue errata to the entire existing Vong characters, to define them as "YV". While a glossary definition could do this, it's a major change to a fundamental rule, and we've generally agreed not to do that to WotC rules.

And most certainly I'm not willing to consider it for one small interaction. We didn't playtest this one, but I was aware of the possibility. I just thought of the issue in the above way and ignored it. Edit - NVM, what Dennis just said :)

Author:  The_Celestial_Warrior [ Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jacen + Vong Sense

billiv15 wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
If the intent was for it to work, then simply add Yuzaahn Vong to the glossary. I don't think that's anything to monumental.

I don't know if that was the intent or not. I'm pretty sure the intent was for Jacen to be able to use lightning against Vong armies. A NR Vong figure isn't really a Vong army and isn't what Jacen would have ever fought as an NR character. He might have fought them as a Sith Lord (don't think he did, but not certain). But either way, it's just one of those odd interactions that the game contains.

Another easy example, Princess Leia in a NR squad via original Jacen. Even if his sister brings a Rebel Han, there are no Rebels in the squad for her to use her CE on. It's exactly the same situation here. Why should we fix it in one case, while ignoring that it's consistent with many other things in the game? Yuzaahn Vong is a faction, I am not interested in making a change that defines it as something else, I don't think the game needs that kind of adjustment, when it would create all kinds of other inconsistencies to do so.

In addition to the "Rebel" issue, we would have to also adjust the name of "Sith" for the purposes of Sith hunter, "Mando" for the purposes of Mando Hunter, "Old Republic Hunter" and on and on and on. Its not nearly as simple as making on small insignificant change Brad.

Further, we'd also have to issue errata to the entire existing Vong characters, to define them as "YV". While a glossary definition could do this, it's a major change to a fundamental rule, and we've generally agreed not to do that to WotC rules.

And most certainly I'm not willing to consider it for one small interaction. We didn't playtest this one, but I was aware of the possibility. I just thought of the issue in the above way and ignored it. Edit - NVM, what Dennis just said :)


The big difference with your examples is Yuzaahn Vong is a race, and is illustrated that way in the game[via the figures themselves]. (Sith is a race elsewhere but not really in Minis), so there is some precedence for doing so for it and not for your other examples which are simply factions. You're also right that the interaction is far too insignificant, but I wasn't really arguing for the change so much as merely suggesting a fix if that was the intent. However, I agree with Dennis, if it wasn't the intent, then it simply wasn't the intent and I'm fine either way.

I really don't see how you consider adding Yuzaahn Vong to the glossary a major change to a fundamental rule and while you could probably persuade me, as the difference is merely philosophical, it's also moot for the above statement by Dennis.

Author:  LoboStele [ Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jacen + Vong Sense

To be fair, Yuuzhan Vong really isn't a race. There's a lot of data to suggest that the primary YV characters are all of the same humanoid base species, but then you also have things like the Voxyn, Chazrach, Yammosk, etc. that are all clearly other races, yet part of the Yuuzhan Vong faction.

Author:  The_Celestial_Warrior [ Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jacen + Vong Sense

LoboStele wrote:
The SA 'Yuuzhan Vong Warrior' would not be the same thing as an SA 'Yuuzhan Vong' even if it did exist. Just like the SA 'Lightsaber Duelist' is not the same as 'Lightsaber'. Besides, precedent set by these types of abilities is that it references the Faction, and not an SA, unless it specifically says so.

And just adding 'Yuuzhan Vong' to the Glossary really wouldn't help, since most of the pieces don't have a 'Yuuzhan Vong' SA. Would have to be errata'd onto all the older YV cards, like they did with Chewbacca, and honestly, that's probably not really worth it for such a limited interaction.



Actually in this case it's more about the interactions similar to DR and SA's of FP's containing the word Lightsaber. Of course, in my initial statement I forgot about the Yuzaahn Vong Collaborator, so you'd essentially be trading an small oddity for a small oddity.

Also you wouldn't have to errata all vong, just the ones that didn't specifically say Yuzaahn Vong which, initially I thought was just the Uniques, but there are a few non-uniques as well.

Again really not worth the argument if it wasn't the design intent anyway. Just stating a possible fix.

Author:  The_Celestial_Warrior [ Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jacen + Vong Sense

LoboStele wrote:
To be fair, Yuuzhan Vong really isn't a race. There's a lot of data to suggest that the primary YV characters are all of the same humanoid base species, but then you also have things like the Voxyn, Chazrach, Yammosk, etc. that are all clearly other races, yet part of the Yuuzhan Vong faction.



Okay....?? Now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing :P but for fun, that's like saying a dog counts as being human because he resides and falls under the same household. ;) In game terms, which I just realized is probably what you meant, Yuzaahn Vong is a race that falls under the Yuzaahn Vong faction along with the Voxyn, Yammosk etc, just like Wookies are a race that fall under various factions.

Still from a game perspective, (though I can't remember which have Force Immunity) that does drastically alter it being worth any fix, which the fact that it wasn't the intent already did. Half the faction would end up being Yuzaahn Vong all the time and the other half would only count if they were in a Yuzaahn Vong squad, and that interaction is just stupid.

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