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Jacen + Vong Sense
https://www.swmgamers.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=10374		 Page 2 of 4
Author:  Grand Moff Boris [ Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jacen + Vong Sense
Chewbacca counts as a Wookiee, because he's well, a Wookiee. But he's also a Rebel. Race (or species in game terms) isn't a factor. Faction is usually all that matters.
Author:  Disturbed1 [ Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jacen + Vong Sense
So...from the first post...No, Jacen CANNOT Lightning the Vong, as its now NR and not Vong...so what does the Force Bubble have to do with anything?

The Vong piece already had Immunity, and the bubble gives Immunity, which Jacen still cant get around...
Author:  LoboStele [ Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jacen + Vong Sense
In THIS instance, Jacen can't get around it....

In a no-faction game, or perhaps in a 3-player game (Imps, NR, and Vong), if somehow, a Vong piece ended up on the Imperial player's squad (or in the 3-player game, simply within the Ysalamiri bubble), then Jacen would still be able to target the Vong piece, because the rules as written say that he ignores Force Immunity on them. It doesn't matter what source the FI comes from.
Author:  The_Celestial_Warrior [ Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jacen + Vong Sense
LoboStele wrote:
In THIS instance, Jacen can't get around it....

In a no-faction game, or perhaps in a 3-player game (Imps, NR, and Vong), if somehow, a Vong piece ended up on the Imperial player's squad (or in the 3-player game, simply within the Ysalamiri bubble), then Jacen would still be able to target the Vong piece, because the rules as written say that he ignores Force Immunity on them. It doesn't matter what source the FI comes from.



Basically as long as the Piece is still of the Yuzaahn Vong Faction it doesn't matter the source. Does Betrayal change the faction? Can't remember for sure so not sure its effect in the 3 player game mentioned.
Author:  LoboStele [ Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jacen + Vong Sense
No, I don't think Betrayal changes it, as the faction is more or less 'set' during the squad construction phase of the game. Thus, why Affinity makes a difference with squads.

Actually, a real game example would be a Yuuzhan Vong squad where you are running the YVH1 droid (I know, TOTALLY non-canon :lol: ), and one of your Vong betrays to the other squad (say they are running Kreia, so faction doesn't matter). The YVH1's Vong Hunter SA would still work against the Vong that betrayed, because it was a YV when you built the squad.

However, Ossus Guardians in a NR squad would NOT be affected by the YVH1's Vong Hunter ability, because they are technically New Republic pieces, not Yuuzhan Vong. In that instance, it actually does kind of make sense from a canon stand point, lol.
Author:  jonnyb815 [ Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jacen + Vong Sense
Yuuzhan Vong is still a Yuuzhan Vong even if they change faction this is crazy. Yuuzhan Vong is a species and a faction. I understand how this has been ruled but come on just because they changed factions doesnt mean they changed from not being a Yuuzan Vong. Yuuzan Vong has to be defined as a species this is just dumb.

Its the Vong droid not working on a Yuuzhan Vong in a NR squad is what I have a problem with. I understand in cannon it doesnt make sense but it should work in the game. To be honest I am more pissed about the whole Atris +10 not working on vong because its a FA in a full sentence even though its still a Force power. Sith Rage and other stuff work that dont effect vong but the +10 doesnt work
Author:  The_Celestial_Warrior [ Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jacen + Vong Sense
jonnyb815 wrote:
To be honest I am more pissed about the whole Atris +10 not working on vong because its a FA in a full sentence even though its still a Force power. Sith Rage and other stuff work that dont effect vong but the +10 doesnt work


Atris grants +4 attack and -4 Attack through her Force Ability, and I can see the latter half not working against Vong. Bastila is the one who grants +10 damage along with suppression of enemy commander effects. Again, same thing, I see no reason why the first half wouldn't work and if the commander has Force Immunity then his commander effect would not be suppressed.
Author:  LoboStele [ Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jacen + Vong Sense
Umm...because no rules were CHANGED in designing Basitla....A new ability was created. There's a very big difference between creating something new and changing the old things.

Yuuzhan Vong is NOT a species and has never been represented as a species in the game. Besides, why wouldn't we also want to go back and define species like Gamorrean, Chadra-Fan, Chiss, Twi'lek, etc. etc. etc....

It just isn't worth it. The game works as designed JUST FINE with the VERY MINOR exception of an extremely rare situation that will hardly ever happen.

Honestly, the whole Vong Sense vs. Force Immune thing will happen very rarely in competitive games, as the only time it DOESN'T work in a competitive environment, is when you run Ossus Guardians in a NR squad. And that happens what...1 out of 60 times, at best? (Laura Kiernan is our data point here, lol) So, in competitive play, the interaction is going to come up VERY rarely.

OK, so THEME play is really the issue here....well...what is it we always say about non-competitive theme based play?? You can do whatever the heck you want with the rules at that point, because there is no rule-governing-body overseeing that type of play.

It just simply isn't worth the argument, and it isn't worth changing the policy that has been set forth, which is to touch as absolutely little of WOTC's work as possible.
Author:  jonnyb815 [ Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jacen + Vong Sense
Really I have no point to what I am trying to get at so lets move on.
Author:  The_Celestial_Warrior [ Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jacen + Vong Sense
jonnyb815 wrote:
I just have a problem with the +10 not working on FI when other force powers work.


Ok, I'm still confused as to why you are saying this?
Author:  LoboStele [ Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jacen + Vong Sense
jonnyb815 wrote:
I understand that since its one full sentence it should work how it is written. I just have a problem with the +10 not working on FI when other force powers work. I think thats a bigger change in the rules than adding VY to the glossary. That was my point.


Again, not sure what the problem is here. The only instance where this would even occur is if Bastila activates her ABM while an allied piece is within a Ysalamiri bubble. And in that instance, I think it would be a perfectly good counter to her ability, and makes perfect sense. Hardly any other force powers work against FI characters, so I don't understand what the concern is.

Unless you're claiming that pieces under the influence of ABM would never get their +10 against FI characters? I'll have to re-read the ability, but I don't see how you could come to that conclusion. ABM is buffing your own allies, just like Sith Rage would. So it should be usable against FI enemies.

Quote:
Its not new since you made Force Abilities Force powers.


<smacks forehead>

Sigh.....Force Abilities ARE new. I don't understand what you're arguing, lol.
Author:  Grand Moff Boris [ Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jacen + Vong Sense
It's really not a "bigger change." We created a new term and we defined how it works. Force abilities are a subheading of Force powers that operate slightly differently from normal Force powers. They are concentrations on the Force that allow the character to focus the Force to achieve a specific objective over a longer period. ABM, as opposed to Sith Rage or Use the Force or Dark Temptation, is an ability that allows the user to influence through the Force the entire squad and the direction of the battle. A Force Immune character simply isn't subject to that effect, and doesn't care. Something like Sith Rage affects the character using it, and makes him stronger.

It may seem different from the status quo in terms of "x allows y," but the point you bring up is so minor when compared to the flavor of why it is that way. It's the same as "Why doesn't Lightsaber damage multiply vs. crits?" It's just not significant enough to worry about.
Author:  The_Celestial_Warrior [ Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jacen + Vong Sense
LoboStele wrote:
Honestly, the whole Vong Sense vs. Force Immune thing will happen very rarely in competitive games, as the only time it DOESN'T work in a competitive environment, is when you run Ossus Guardians in a NR squad. And that happens what...1 out of 60 times, at best? (Laura Kiernan is our data point here, lol) So, in competitive play, the interaction is going to come up VERY rarely.


Then mulitply that by the odds of that squad getting matched up against a squad containing Jacen....I can bet it will NEVER come up in competitive play.
Author:  Grand Moff Boris [ Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jacen + Vong Sense
LoboStele wrote:
Unless you're claiming that pieces under the influence of ABM would never get their +10 against FI characters? I'll have to re-read the ability, but I don't see how you could come to that conclusion. ABM is buffing your own allies, just like Sith Rage would. So it should be usable against FI enemies.


No, Jonny is right. Force Immune characters ignore the damage bonus from ABM. Me and Deri knew that going into it. Force Immune characters also ignore the +4/-4 restrictions from Atris.
Author:  jonnyb815 [ Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jacen + Vong Sense
(YHV Droid Hunter) I didnt see that the glossary said enemies I was just looking at the card. So there is no point to what I wanted to get at.

Wait so the +10 does work?
Author:  The_Celestial_Warrior [ Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jacen + Vong Sense
LoboStele wrote:
Yuuzhan Vong is NOT a species and has never been represented as a species in the game. Besides, why wouldn't we also want to go back and define species like Gamorrean, Chadra-Fan, Chiss, Twi'lek, etc. etc. etc....


Even though I was never really on the other side of the argument though, somehow by stating a fix based on a possible assumption of intent, I got put over there, I dont get why you say this at all. And your example is illogical until something like Gamorrean Hunter is created.

At this point I think you have become so ingrained in the argument on one level (gameplay) that when I try to read it incorporating gameplay and storyline I get confused. I could care less about gameplay at this point, it makes sense to me why it's not necessary nor did I ever care that much if it was. Surely, though, you are not saying that Yuzaahn Vong are not a species at the Storyline level?
Author:  The_Celestial_Warrior [ Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jacen + Vong Sense
Grand Moff Boris wrote:
LoboStele wrote:
Unless you're claiming that pieces under the influence of ABM would never get their +10 against FI characters? I'll have to re-read the ability, but I don't see how you could come to that conclusion. ABM is buffing your own allies, just like Sith Rage would. So it should be usable against FI enemies.


No, Jonny is right. Force Immune characters ignore the damage bonus from ABM. Me and Deri knew that going into it. Force Immune characters also ignore the +4/-4 restrictions from Atris.



Wait, so if Bastila uses ABM and Carth attacks a Yuzaahn Vong character and hits he does not get to apply the +10 damage?????

Or if Atris uses Force Meditation on Carth and he attacks a Yuzaahn Vong character he does not get to add the +4?????

I do not see the logic there at all!
Author:  LoboStele [ Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jacen + Vong Sense
Grand Moff Boris wrote:
LoboStele wrote:
Unless you're claiming that pieces under the influence of ABM would never get their +10 against FI characters? I'll have to re-read the ability, but I don't see how you could come to that conclusion. ABM is buffing your own allies, just like Sith Rage would. So it should be usable against FI enemies.


No, Jonny is right. Force Immune characters ignore the damage bonus from ABM. Me and Deri knew that going into it. Force Immune characters also ignore the +4/-4 restrictions from Atris.


Huh? I understand enemy FI models ignoring the -4 from Atris. And I understand ALLIED models ignoring Bastila's ABM or Atris Force Meditation altogether. But if you have a standard OR build with Bastila, and you're up against Yuuzhan Vong, the way I read the rules, the OR pieces would all get the +10 damage bonus, even when attacking the Yuuzhan Vong.

Is this based simply on the words "Characters with Force Immunity ignore Force abilities." in the Rules Insert? I interpreted that differently I guess. If this is the case, I would actually argue in Johnny's favor, that I would think ABM should affect all the OR models AND give them the +10 damage bonus, even against Vong. Obviously, the disruptive part of ABM wouldn't affect the Vong, but that's because that's the part of the affect that is actually affecting the FI characters. The rest of ABM only affects allied characters, the same way Sith Rage would buff yourself and still affect FI characters.
Author:  The_Celestial_Warrior [ Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jacen + Vong Sense
LoboStele wrote:
Grand Moff Boris wrote:
LoboStele wrote:
Unless you're claiming that pieces under the influence of ABM would never get their +10 against FI characters? I'll have to re-read the ability, but I don't see how you could come to that conclusion. ABM is buffing your own allies, just like Sith Rage would. So it should be usable against FI enemies.


No, Jonny is right. Force Immune characters ignore the damage bonus from ABM. Me and Deri knew that going into it. Force Immune characters also ignore the +4/-4 restrictions from Atris.


Huh? I understand enemy FI models ignoring the -4 from Atris. And I understand ALLIED models ignoring Bastila's ABM or Atris Force Meditation altogether. But if you have a standard OR build with Bastila, and you're up against Yuuzhan Vong, the way I read the rules, the OR pieces would all get the +10 damage bonus, even when attacking the Yuuzhan Vong.

Is this based simply on the words "Characters with Force Immunity ignore Force abilities." in the Rules Insert? I interpreted that differently I guess. If this is the case, I would actually argue in Johnny's favor, that I would think ABM should affect all the OR models AND give them the +10 damage bonus, even against Vong. Obviously, the disruptive part of ABM wouldn't affect the Vong, but that's because that's the part of the affect that is actually affecting the FI characters. The rest of ABM only affects allied characters, the same way Sith Rage would buff yourself and still affect FI characters.


If it wasn't evident from my previous post: +1
Author:  LoboStele [ Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jacen + Vong Sense
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
LoboStele wrote:
Yuuzhan Vong is NOT a species and has never been represented as a species in the game. Besides, why wouldn't we also want to go back and define species like Gamorrean, Chadra-Fan, Chiss, Twi'lek, etc. etc. etc....


Even though I was never really on the other side of the argument though, somehow by stating a fix based on a possible assumption of intent, I got put over there, I dont get why you say this at all. And your example is illogical until something like Gamorrean Hunter is created.

At this point I think you have become so ingrained in the argument on one level (gameplay) that when I try to read it incorporating gameplay and storyline I get confused. I could care less about gameplay at this point, it makes sense to me why it's not necessary nor did I ever care that much if it was. Surely, though, you are not saying that Yuzaahn Vong are not a species at the Storyline level?


No, Yuuzhan Vong is not an individual species, even as the books are concerned, IMO. As I pointed out, all various forms of YV are referred to as YV throughout the book. They are really more separate 'species' such as things like the main castes (Warriors, priests, leaders, etc....the humanoids), then things like the Chazrak and such are very literally different species, but they have been absorbed into the YV as a whole. I guess maybe it would be more like sub-species.

The fact of the matter is, even stuff like the Voxyn would not be considered 'Yuuzhan Vong species', they are 'Voxyn species'. So I think the overall moniker of the YV faction works exactly as it should based on my interpretation of the novels.
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