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Destiny of the Force Rules Insert/Glossary
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Author:  Lord_Ball [ Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Destiny of the Force Rules Insert/Glossary

Grand Moff Boris wrote:
There may not be a CE like that now, but we didn't want the Yammosk to be another Mouse Droid, meaning a figure that has to be considered every time a commander is designed.


I guess I don't see how the Yammosk isn't a figure that needs consideration for every commander... whether the new commander is on the Yammosks squad or not doesn't really matter as it could most definitely show up in the opponents (as they aren't limited by faction like the yammosk's team is).

Author:  billiv15 [ Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Destiny of the Force Rules Insert/Glossary

Lord_Ball wrote:
Grand Moff Boris wrote:
There may not be a CE like that now, but we didn't want the Yammosk to be another Mouse Droid, meaning a figure that has to be considered every time a commander is designed.


I guess I don't see how the Yammosk isn't a figure that needs consideration for every commander... whether the new commander is on the Yammosks squad or not doesn't really matter as it could most definitely show up in the opponents (as they aren't limited by faction like the yammosk's team is).


There are several built in mechanisms that will allow us as designers to make a new CE Yammosk available or not, as well as making a CE split into 2 or not. You are correct, that the Yam is a consideration, but that isn't technically what Dennis was saying. He was saying that we didn't want there to be no good way around the Yam as there is in the mouse droid.

You sure have a hard time reading anything other than the extreme literal sense of language don't you Lord Ball? :)

Author:  Grand Moff Boris [ Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Destiny of the Force Rules Insert/Glossary

What Bill said.

The Mouse Droid forces a lot of clunky wording and/or nerfing on several Separatist abilities, particularly things that increase damage. It also precludes the opportunity for a special ability that allows Droids to be subject to commander effects.

Of course we think about the Yammosk when designing CE's, both in DotF and in the new Renegades and Rogues set currently in development. But we don't have to worry as much about Vong CE's or Fringe CE's that might be used to break a squad by pairing it with the Yammosk in the same build.

Author:  Lord_Ball [ Wed Dec 29, 2010 12:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Destiny of the Force Rules Insert/Glossary

billiv15 wrote:
Lord_Ball wrote:
Grand Moff Boris wrote:
There may not be a CE like that now, but we didn't want the Yammosk to be another Mouse Droid, meaning a figure that has to be considered every time a commander is designed.


I guess I don't see how the Yammosk isn't a figure that needs consideration for every commander... whether the new commander is on the Yammosks squad or not doesn't really matter as it could most definitely show up in the opponents (as they aren't limited by faction like the yammosk's team is).


There are several built in mechanisms that will allow us as designers to make a new CE Yammosk available or not, as well as making a CE split into 2 or not. You are correct, that the Yam is a consideration, but that isn't technically what Dennis was saying. He was saying that we didn't want there to be no good way around the Yam as there is in the mouse droid.

You sure have a hard time reading anything other than the extreme literal sense of language don't you Lord Ball? :)


I don't see how any of that is really that relevant to the reasoning behind Telepathic Insight being enemy only (since that was the subject matter Boris' commented on). Whether or not it would be eligible for Ally CEs really doesn't change how much consideration the character should be given in regards to new CEs.

According to Boris' second statement a major reason for it being enemy only is purely Flavor oriented and that's perfectly fine.

Author:  LoboStele [ Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Destiny of the Force Rules Insert/Glossary

Lord_Ball wrote:
Whether or not it would be eligible for Ally CEs really doesn't change how much consideration the character should be given in regards to new CEs.


This shows me that you really don't understand the concept of long term game/figure design. EVERYTHING has to be given consideration in the future. ALL CEs on future pieces will have to be checked against the Yammosk to make sure that it doesn't completely break something. Most times, the fixes will be simple, like splitting the CE into two sentences, a la Mith'rawn. For instance, if we made a new piece that had Mith'rawn's CE, but with it all in one sentence, that would be ridiculous if the Yammosk were able to copy it.

Same goes for the allied CEs. If you allowed the Yammosk to copy allied CEs all the time, then we would constantly have to be adding to the cost of Fringe and Yuuzhan Vong pieces simply to make them not broken in the Vong faction. We wouldn't be able to make Vong or Fringe pieces that are both a beatstick and a commander, because then the Yammosk would simply copy the CE and then the commander would be free to go beat face. Instead, the way it works now, you are forced to still play strategically if you want to field a commander in your Vong squad. Allowing the Yammosk to copy allied CEs just becomes a way to let people play sloppy if they want to, without any care for if their commanders die.

And Fringe CEs are the worst. Right now, there's a limited number of Fringe CEs that the Yammosk can take advantage of. The couple of ideas about the Nautolan BSV and Xizor that first popped up are a prime example. You build a Nom squad with a lot of Vong stealth pieces, then toss in the NBSV and Xizor. If the Yammosk allowed copying of allied CEs, then you simply copy the NBSV, and suddenly, all your Vong pieces have +4 attack and +10 damage. That would prevent us from making any decent/mid-priced Vong with Stealth...EVER.

This way, the Yammosk is allowed to be kept at a cheap cost, and from time to time, you'll be able to copy some of those Fringe CEs anyways, when you're opponent is running it, but you won't be able to depend on that 100% of the time. this allows both the Yammosk AND those Fringe commanders to be kept at a reasonable point cost.

Author:  AdmiralMotti89 [ Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Destiny of the Force Rules Insert/Glossary

I can see how it could be a problem in the future, especially since I heard something about a beefier Xizor. Right now even, with the Nautolan BSV, and maybe the Talz chieftain, copying your own can get a little out of hand.

While on one hand it makes sense that you should be able to copy your own because there's nothing from stopping your opponent from putting that character in their squad anyways, making it accessible, on the other hand the opponent always has the knowledge that they might face a Yammosk. After putting my Opp Thrawn in a squad facing a Yammosk and Advance Officer, I will try to build squads that don't benefit my (projected to be often-seen) vong opponents too much, even if that's paranoid. :D

As for flavor, I see no reason why the Yammosk couldn't read the minds of its peace brigade allies to better coordinate with them their attack, so for flavor reasons it's really no problem to copy your own. But I see now that it would be limiting in the future, especially for sub-factions in the fringe if it were to be allowed to copy your own.

Author:  LoboStele [ Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Destiny of the Force Rules Insert/Glossary

Well, from a flavor standpoint, I never really saw the Yammosk as helping out the Fringe people all that much, and it's not like any non-Vong ever commanded the Vong units for the most part. So I actually think the flavor fits better the way it is. To each their own though, I guess.

Author:  billiv15 [ Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Destiny of the Force Rules Insert/Glossary

Lord_Ball wrote:
I don't see how any of that is really that relevant to the reasoning behind Telepathic Insight being enemy only (since that was the subject matter Boris' commented on). Whether or not it would be eligible for Ally CEs really doesn't change how much consideration the character should be given in regards to new CEs.


From a design standpoint, it's absolutely critical. What is not critical is me making sure you admit to understanding it. So as such, bowing out.

Author:  Lord_Ball [ Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Destiny of the Force Rules Insert/Glossary

LoboStele wrote:
Lord_Ball wrote:
Whether or not it would be eligible for Ally CEs really doesn't change how much consideration the character should be given in regards to new CEs.


This shows me that you really don't understand the concept of long term game/figure design. EVERYTHING has to be given consideration in the future. ALL CEs on future pieces will have to be checked against the Yammosk to make sure that it doesn't completely break something.


This shows me that you COMPLETELY misunderstood my posts. All I've been saying is that the Yammosk is definitely a figure to keep in consideration when regarding CEs as are the Mouse and Mas. My actual point was that whether or not the Yammosk could utalize an Allied CE (which it can't) really shouldn't have an impact on the amount of consideration it needs to be given (it should be given plenty regardless).

I'm fine with it being limited to Enemy CEs and Boris' "flavor explanation" seems valid enough to limit it in such a way.

Author:  fingersandteeth [ Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Destiny of the Force Rules Insert/Glossary

AdmiralMotti89 wrote:
That was a bit of a surprise to see Telepathic Insight limited to enemy commander effects. I am wondering the cause for it being limited as such; it is in some cases useful to use your own commander effect from your Fringe character if it applies to Fringe allies/followers. I used this (before I saw this thread) to steal Jabba CL's since I had both Fringe and YV characters and did not want to put both Jabba and Advance Officer in.
Not like it's any big deal, but I don't think it needs to be limited to enemy commander effects. I can't think of a CE that you could put in there that affects Fringe specifically that would be too broken, and I don't think allowing your allies' to be used messes up the SW feel either.


The Yammosk is a tricky thing in design. Its point cost is largely undercosted (intentional). I mean 15 points for boardwide CEs and SAs is arguably worth the 15 but if you compare to Mas effectively its about 10 as you get SAs bossted aswell as CE's but you don't get the mobile figure that can actually kill something, you get a huge hard to kill blob in the corner that might get gambit if you want to risk it.
So you could generously class it as about 11-12 without telepathic insight as no one really adds Mas thinking he'll actually do anything. Telepathic insight is a huge swing. It can be useless and it can win you games without even thinking (Beskar'gam?). So by limiting the ability to just enemy CE's keeps it thematic in its scope but it also adds reason to give slight (very slight) consideration to including it. Its along the lines of you can have your cake but you arn't always gonna be able to eat it.

However, gamers generally want everything and a box of chocolates so i'm unsuprised to see this kind of comment and thats ok. Please note though that during the design though it was never even considered a possibility. The Yammosk does huge things for the Vong and it needed limits, so we made several internal limits to justify its low cost (i've had people consider 30 points well costed, not sure i agree but "fair" would've been low 20's imo).
Being enemy commander effects only is one of those limits (examine the card and its abilities and you can probably figure out the others. Boris has mentioned one already.)

It was felt that building a squad with the vong and adding the Yammosk purely to make sure that a certain CE would stay around (i.e. you build a squad, copy cunning like you did, and then throw causion to the wind regarding the individual character) was against the design goals. This way the vong are still forced to protect fragile commanders like the Empire and Republic are forced to do.

Author:  LukeCZ [ Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Destiny of the Force Rules Insert/Glossary

Just to make sure, so Salacious crumb works like "adjacent disruptive"? Supresses enemy commander effects for adjacent enemies? thanks

Author:  jedispyder [ Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Destiny of the Force Rules Insert/Glossary

LukeCZ wrote:
Just to make sure, so Salacious crumb works like "adjacent disruptive"? Supresses enemy commander effects for adjacent enemies? thanks

Yep. If Salacious is next to an enemy non-commander, that enemy doesn't benefit from any CEs. If he's next to an enemy commander, their CE is suppressed (but they are still considered to be a commander for the purposes of Rookie and such).

Author:  LukeCZ [ Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Destiny of the Force Rules Insert/Glossary

jedispyder wrote:
LukeCZ wrote:
Just to make sure, so Salacious crumb works like "adjacent disruptive"? Supresses enemy commander effects for adjacent enemies? thanks

Yep. If Salacious is next to an enemy non-commander, that enemy doesn't benefit from any CEs. If he's next to an enemy commander, their CE is suppressed (but they are still considered to be a commander for the purposes of Rookie and such).


thank you, disruptive, in my local store, is very popular, so we are going to have a lot of fun with this guy :)

Author:  NickName [ Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Destiny of the Force Rules Insert/Glossary

Updated to include errata.

Author:  billiv15 [ Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Destiny of the Force Rules Insert/Glossary

Ray, any chance we can get this up on the main page under DotF Downloads? Same with the FAQ through DotF.

Author:  jedispyder [ Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Destiny of the Force Rules Insert/Glossary

billiv15 wrote:
Ray, any chance we can get this up on the main page under DotF Downloads? Same with the FAQ through DotF.

The FAQ is already up under the SWMGPA Download section, Dean put it up earlier this week. But I know we don't have the glossary image that Les created uploaded yet.

Author:  dnemiller [ Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Destiny of the Force Rules Insert/Glossary

if someone gets me the PDF I will get it on the main page but got to have that first.

Author:  LESHIPPY [ Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Destiny of the Force Rules Insert/Glossary

dnemiller wrote:
if someone gets me the PDF I will get it on the main page but got to have that first.


Sent. Sorry i thought this had been taken care of.

Author:  billiv15 [ Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Destiny of the Force Rules Insert/Glossary

LESHIPPY wrote:
dnemiller wrote:
if someone gets me the PDF I will get it on the main page but got to have that first.


Sent. Sorry i thought this had been taken care of.


Pretty sure Ray had it, that's why I addressed my question to him :)

Author:  dvader831 [ Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Destiny of the Force Rules Insert/Glossary

I can say I was innocent on that one! I sent it to Dean few weeks ago :)

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