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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:11 am 
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ChonChuuk wrote:

As for me, I like a little powercreep if it is done right.


I completely agree. :)

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:12 am 
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billiv15 wrote:
fun game.... Nah, I wont buy the new set, my CS stuff is better anyway.

Ah, so you like purchasing the latest and greatest every time?

Perhaps Aurra was not completely supplanted by Boba Enforcer, however I think most agree static shooters have been taking it on the chin recently. Mobile/Evade is a hard one to quantify in terms of points, however I would much sooner take that then rely on high defense to save me. Is Aurra still useful? Sure, but remember she was undercosted at one time. Boba Enforcer was never called that.

People found ways to say Quinlan was not completely replaced by the JWM. Those same people will find ways to justify all of their anti-powercreep arguments by stating that in a very specific scenario one figure is better then the other (I am not saying it is as grim for Aurra as it was for Vos).


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:13 am 
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People found ways to say Quinlan was not completely replaced by the JWM.


Actually, he is. There's pretty much no way to argue that in the current environment. I don't recall anyone saying otherwise but maybe someone did.

Luckily, my definition of powercreep allows for this situation without it being powercreep. :D


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:36 am 
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NickName wrote:
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People found ways to say Quinlan was not completely replaced by the JWM.


Actually, he is. There's pretty much no way to argue that in the current environment. I don't recall anyone saying otherwise but maybe someone did.


quinlans' 100 hp means that he can survive a triple from JH Vader

he has a 13 attack

thats all


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:37 am 
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emr131 wrote:
People found ways to say Quinlan was not completely replaced by the JWM. Those same people will find ways to justify all of their anti-powercreep arguments by stating that in a very specific scenario one figure is better then the other (I am not saying it is as grim for Aurra as it was for Vos).


That's way too extreme man. If you're going to make an argument, at least use one that makes sense. There's absolutely no question that JWMs are much better than CS Quinlan.

Now, if you wanted to compare JWMs to Saesee Tiin or Shaak Ti, that would be a better comparison. But again, in that situation, both Tiin and Ti have their uses in certain types of squads. I actually ran a 150 pt squad with Yoda CS and played with Tiin instead of a JWM specifically to take advantage of the Stealth CE (brought in a BBSV with Lobot if needed). It did REALLY well. Sure, a JWM probably would've been better in some situations, but against any shooter squad, it had a pretty decent advantage over the JWM.

So, yeah, CS Quinlan was pretty much completely eclipsed. But those types of things happen from time to time. Power creep is when all previous things are rendered useless.

I think Bill's point, and what I described above as well, is that it's not really power creep if there are still situations where an older figure is better. Same holds true for Boba and Aurra. Sometimes, Aurra will absolutely be better than Boba.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:01 pm 
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My feeling is yes... we still have some power creep concerns. I still believe that several of the pieces are undercosted (or overpowered, whichever you prefer). I also think that we have quite a few older figures that just became significantly worse with the new set. This definitely bothers me.

I stick by my assertion that our happy reinforcements machine is the most out-of-range in the set. Yes, it is a risk piece... but it has upside that nothing else short of BobaBH has. I also believe the Vanguard was Rob's personal attack on me... he knows that I roll 11+ saves less then 1/3 of the time... the bastard. Seriously, I think that several other figures simply should have cost a bit more (Vader U, Vanguard, Maris, Noble)... my opinion here, obviously, though I have tried to back my statement with some rationality and math (not just emotion).

This having been said, I think that indeed we do have some "revitalization" of older figures with new CEs (such as the Sith Assault Droid, which gets a nice boost with Revan).

Overall, I like many things I've seen so far. I don't like the creep, particularly in the fact that in some cases it just really feels unnecessary (such as with Vader U). I am, however, excited about the fact that the presence of a new set will, at least temporarily, revitalize the game and get people playing again. I hope to hell that I'm wrong about the power creep being enough to have a negative impact.

As for definitions... I don't like "powercreep" so much as "corrections of imbalance". I like newness... and I'm willing to accept some small amount of error with this... but I do not accept that a constant upward creep is intended... rather, I think we should allow the error to allow for that occasional creep. If we do BOTH (which I feel we are), we run into trouble...

Think of it this way... a cop is willing to give you about 10MPH over the limit without busting you. When driving without Cruise Control, you'll tend to drift +/- a few MPH as you drive. If you know a cop will give you 10MPH, and thus drive 10MPH over ALL the time, you WILL get busted eventually when he sees you at 15 over. I see our powercreep as this... we design to push slightly, then we allow for some oscillation... when you combine both, you get some spikes that are a problem.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:10 pm 
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LoboStele wrote:
emr131 wrote:
People found ways to say Quinlan was not completely replaced by the JWM. Those same people will find ways to justify all of their anti-powercreep arguments by stating that in a very specific scenario one figure is better then the other (I am not saying it is as grim for Aurra as it was for Vos).


That's way too extreme man. If you're going to make an argument, at least use one that makes sense. There's absolutely no question that JWMs are much better than CS Quinlan.

You illustrated it perfectly in your example. Very specific squad builds can keep certain figures off the shelves, but really... I think most find the JWM to be the mid range beatstick of choice.

I predict that there will be further grasping at straws if a ranged piece is revealed that all but replaces previous ones. I already think the uggernaught is among the best huges out there, especially the fringe choices.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:49 pm 
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ChonChuuk wrote:
It is all semantics. :)

The overall power level of the game got better because the gaps were filled in. Now a weakness becomes a strength.

I guess my point was that no matter what, some people are going to complain about powercreep unless every faction has mirrored pieces.

As for me, I like a little powercreep if it is done right.


Just remember somebody is going to complain about every new piece that is made. If an old piece is better than the new piece the new one is a waste of space in the set. If the new one is better than the old one its powercreep.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:01 pm 
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homer_sapien wrote:
Just remember somebody is going to complain about every new piece that is made. If an old piece is better than the new piece the new one is a waste of space in the set. If the new one is better than the old one its powercreep.
Yeah pretty much.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:10 pm 
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"Ah, so you like purchasing the latest and greatest every time?"

If you play competive than you will have to play a lot of the more recent figs. Besides most people are gonna purcharse boosters from the newest sets because the set will have a lot of figs that someone doesn't have.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:06 am 
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That and if you dont buy the new stuff SWM will become dreamblade, and then where will we be?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:55 pm 
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Boy am I glad I did not jump on the Dreamblade bandwagon. Seemed kind of fun at Comic-Con last year, but I was collecting too many games already.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:49 pm 
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ChonChuuk wrote:
Boy am I glad I did not jump on the Dreamblade bandwagon. Seemed kind of fun at Comic-Con last year, but I was collecting too many games already.

The game mechanics were neat. The game pieces were too scarry to have in my house with 3 small kids.

WOTC could have selected any genre for the game. Why did they select scarry dreams? It just reminds me of the hexa toom game that died last year.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:06 am 
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Agreed. I play the game with my 10 yr old and have a blast, but the pieces are jsut too freaky. It was a new and different type of game. I prefer valor because the pieces are more normal looking.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:35 am 
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ChonChuuk wrote:
Boy am I glad I did not jump on the Dreamblade bandwagon. Seemed kind of fun at Comic-Con last year, but I was collecting too many games already.

Your Lucky, I got into it a bit, found i didn't like it, then found out I could trade in all my Dreamblade mini's for one pack of magic cards..... Really worth the effort :roll:

I agree on the figures being creepy. Really really creepy.

However, I honestly dont think that would happen with SWM, to good of a game.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:53 pm 
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They just reduced Dreamblades boosters at my store. I am somewhat tempted to pick a few up cheap.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:14 pm 
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Sithborg wrote:
They just reduced Dreamblades boosters at my store. I am somewhat tempted to pick a few up cheap.

I'm sorry, but after the treatment SWM was given because of Dreamblade at Gencon, I wouldn't buy them if they were $1.00 each!

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:25 pm 
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My LGS has them in the half price section now.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:29 pm 
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hmmmm because the pieces are so freaky i might pick some up. That's not a negative for everyone! :)

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:24 pm 
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punxnbutter wrote:
hmmmm because the pieces are so freaky i might pick some up. That's not a negative for everyone! :)


I thought about that, but even half price boosters wasn't cheap enough for that. I'm thinking when I get near the end of my FU set and go to get the last few singles on ebay whenever I win an auction for one of them I'll see if the seller has any freaky looking Dreamblade pieces I can add on cheap.

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