Hey folks!

As I watched the latest episodes of the Clone Wars cartoon, I was inspired to create a training arena map for Star Wars miniatures play. In the cartoon, clone trainees are tested in a controlled simulation environment with shifting floors and obstacles. This map design is influenced by the arena used in the cartoon, but is made with two "citadel" bases set up on opposite sides, for balanced gameplay. In fact, this map will be completely symmetrical. I also created a building in the center of the map to enclose most of the gambit area, and set up wall structures in key area to provide advancement routes for melee units (without closing off all possible shooting lanes). It occurs to me that this map would be great for a "Capture the Flag" sort of scenario, as well.

This one is intended to be more tournament-friendly than most, so I'm presenting it here "in the rough" in order to get community feedback and troubleshoot the design from the very beginning. If you find anything abusive about this map, please point it out.

Note: I couldn't get this site to display the images themselves for some reason, so you'll need to click the links to view them...

The preliminary sketch from my sketchbook:
http://www.mapsofmastery.com/swmstuff/T ... Sketch.jpg

A rough comp including walls, doors, and highlighting to clarify terrain types:
http://www.mapsofmastery.com/swmstuff/T ... aRough.jpg

I'm also considering doing something different with Side B of this map. All of the posters I've done so far at http://www.mapsofmastery.com have two different maps on either side. For this one, I'm thinking of putting a sheet of empty floor tiles that match the floor of the arena. (We haven't had an unadorned floor map commercially available for this game since Clone Strike.)

That said, I would take it one step further: I'd make this combo pack that included not just the poster, but a set of cards similar to my "Sci-Fi Cargo Tiles" product, that feature arena obstacles and adjusted floor sections: Raised floors, walls, pits, weapon emplacements, towers, and other structures build out of the shifting arena floor. In this way, you could take the empty arena floor map and build your own training simulations on it using the tiles. I'd try to include enough variety in these pieces that you could custom-build a pretty thorough map of your own for a unique skirmish battle.

So: please let me know if this is a product you would be interested in supporting, and please also critique the map shown above. My goal is to make a balanced tournament-friendly skirmish map.

If this meets with widespread approval, I'll take it to a finished state and do another Kickstarter-based pre-order to fund the print run.

Thanks, folks! I hope you like this.

I loved that episode too, so this idea sounds great.

I would so buy it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you print it, they will come....and buy it....and so will I...

Wow, I really like the look of this one already!

One issue that you might want to address is the rather-long LOS's that you can draw into either citadel from the 4 cross-shaped pillars on the map. You've done a really good job of removing the long LOS in terms of left-right and top-down directions, but those diagonal LOS's are pretty significant. A mobile shooter could camp out behind one of those pillars and basically control the advancement options of the other side.

Aside from that, though, nothing else really jumps out at me quite yet. I'll look again later when I don't have 3 boys hanging over my shoulder (time to play Xbox with them)!

Once again, I think this is a very promising start to a new map for competitive play!

The LOS is also giving me some concerns as well. Not only the Cross Towers, but you can set up a fairly good cross fire from the middle room. I think making those green "hills" (can't think of the name, but where the clones took cover as the approached) into a thin L shaped walls would break up the LOS pretty good. You would still have some long LOS, but I don't think that is too bad of a detriment.

My only other concern is that I don't see much reason to actually go into the room for Gambit. The 4 Gambit squares outside the room are pretty well protected, that unless you send in Overriders, don't seem why I would try to "take the room".

The layout looks pretty solid.

Others are right about the long LOS but I don't actually see it being that much of an issue: the citadel areas provide quite a bit of cover from a force that approaches from only one flank. Luke's Snowspeeder/Lancer will be great on this map because of their high speed + flight, but I think there are enough doors in good places to be able to hide from them.

I do think that Gambit should be completely enclosed though (make the 4 exterior gambit squares solid); right now it's too easy to get without committing to the middle room.

Also: having not seen the CW episode the first thing this map reminded me of was Halo deathmatch. This will probably not be the case in the final though if the artwork is stylistically similar to the Mass Transit posters.

Is it okay if I say that not every map has to be perfectly balanced from all sides of the spectrum. This was a training ground, meant to be as unfair as possible in a way to train the troopers through adversity. And yes the long LoS is an issue but if you consider the map in context it is very true to it's origin.

As for play style, it's a shooter friendly map, but that was again the point of the scenario, the clones were not fighting melee but in battle with droids who were shooting at them from the second they hit the floor. Why can't we have a map that creates early round combat as opposed to all the three or four rounds of movement getting into position.

I think it would be nice to have a map that benefits early combat action, and I see room for melee to approach we would just have to do what we've always done, be careful with them.

I like Chris.

I also love that this was the rookies again, so great to see those guys again.

Actually, if it's going to be on the Restricted List, then yes, it does need to be. Maybe not perfectly balanced--I'm not sure any map is perfectly balanced--but certainly not as much of a shooter's paradise as this currently is. This is already a good map, but there are also many good maps that aren't on the Restricted list (Death Star, Train Station), and that is the case precisely because they offer even a minor advantage to shooters. I and a couple others have been making comments in an effort to help Chris improve this one enough to make it a likely candidate for the Restricted list.


Discussions of flavor and origins are well and good (and in that regard, I love this map!), but they don't factor even a little bit into the value of a given map for competitive play. As an extreme example, the Hoth Plains map is also very true to its origin, but nobody would ever even consider it for competitive play.

And if Chris wanted to make this one even more accurate to the origins, he could turn most of the low objects into walls, since the clones were hiding (out of LOS) behind those walls.

Me, too.

Edit: I also, like the idea of the blank map with tiles included.

Competitive version on one side, and a scenario version on the other?

(I do want to say that I like the tiles idea for the other side)

I'm for any map that has 4 distinct starting areas for multi play. Love it!

Why does every map have to be tailored for the restricted list? Why can't there be a few new flavor maps? It seems as if the only maps Chris and Matt are designing at this point are with the restricted list in mind. And if they make one that isn't it's a Kooriban all over again? I don't think so. I just don't think that it is really necessary for every map that will be released be criticized until it's only good on the restricted list. There is a standard list for a reason.

Mind you I'm not a fan of abusive combos but thats why the map lists are there, each one allows for different types of play.

Also if every map is meant to be on the restricted list at what point do they all basically become the same? Again 2-3 rounds of initial movement and setup without a movement nut buster anyway and then action. A map like this yeah it's shooter friendly but it looks as if it would play different from many of the shooter maps we have.

And yes I think being true to the source material is important for some maps and even more so for others. And in some cases it isn't important at all.

All I'm saying is not every map needs to be on the restricted list for us to want to play on it and have a good time. Even at this point I think it's important to get a scenario map or a theme map for the casual players who are still playing that want more than just uber competitive style of maps.

Don, I think that while you are correct in that not every map needs to be created for the expressed purpose of ending up on the restricted list, even at the highest level of play we need fresh looks. I for one was not happy that we only had 6 maps at GenCon this year to play on at the highest level. But, to add to that list we need to seriously critique and test new maps. I think Matt, Chris and Josh would all agree that feedback from our best players only serves to help them. Maybe I shouldn't speak for him, (Wait, he's a Canadien and they need speaking for at times, eh?) but I will bet once Chris produces this TINT will be among the first to buy one. (Provided he can convert his foreign currency) I know anything these guys put out I'm grabbing...no matter what level of play it falls into. Actually when Chris introduced it he said he wanted it to be a tournament friendly map, so I think serious critiquing is necessary.

I like Minmei.

Don, of course not every map has to be made with competitive play in mind. But rather than spinning my wheels in the mud, I'll just answer your post with a quote from the initial post of this thread, made by Mapmaker himself:
So it's clear that Chris is wanting feedback to help point out any possible abuses on this map. I and a few others have pointed some out. If Chris didn't want this kind of feedback, he wouldn't have asked for it. I hope that my comments (and those of others) have been helpful to him, but if not, then Chris is obviously welcome to do as he wishes with his own map.

Oh, and Jim is right about this Canadian (as usual!)...whether this map ends up being used in competitive play or not, I will be one of the first people to buy this map, as I always have been.

Thanks for all the feedback, folks! This is really helpful stuff! While I fervently agree that not all maps need to be balanced to a tournament standard, I do want to make this particular map very finely balanced for that purpose. One of the last maps I designed (Deep Caverns) wasn't made to restricted list specifications, so I felt this one should be. I might make a different arena configuration for the back if the blank map and tiles idea proves unpopular, and if that's the case, the back probably won't be symmetrical.

When designing this sketch, I made a conscious decision to put some gambit squares outside of the central building, specifically to prevent a lockout situation where someone with a lot of door control could lock his pieces in gambit after targeting the opponent's door control pieces, and then camp his way to victory.

Basically, you could make a fast door control squad and take this map with you, and sway your victory odds in your favor before a shot is fired simply by winning map choice. I was trying to prevent that sort of thing, but would it be better to have the gambit area completely enclosed? If there's a consensus that the exterior gambit squares are a bad thing, I'll certainly change that, but I was thinking they were fairly well-protected.

As for further limiting the diagonal shooting lanes around the central area: the simplest way to do that would be to extend the vertical walls protruding north and south from the gambit building, but I'm loath to do that for one primary reason: right now, this map is reasonably huge-friendly. If I narrow or remove those gaps, huge minis won't be able to cross the map. I realize rigid doesn't exist in tournament play, but I wanted to show some love for even casual play involving huge minis, since I haven't done that for a while.

What changes would you guys recommend to further limit shooters, if indeed shooters should be limited more on this one? I'd like to preserve the open-faced aspect of the citadels and the feeling of an open training ground space as much as possible, but if there's broad consensus that the map does need more line-of-sight blockers, that's something I want to remedy, somehow.

Oh, some further notes:
1) The four little pits were an afterthought: I added them to provide some (minor) risk where force push is involved.

2) The doors on the gambit building were a bit of an afterthought as well; i purposefully left the doorways open to begin with, but in the end I decided that a little extra protection would keep speedy units from flying right through the middle point of the map in one turn.

3) Like many of my maps, this one was designed such that two copies placed edge-to-edge will create one larger map. In this case, the bunkers along the long sides will go together to make a different central building in that configuration.

4) Some of the difficult terrain areas here that look like stairs will become ramps in the finished map.

Thanks again everyone! Please keep the feedback coming!

Fair enough. And in that spirit give the man what he wants.

One of the things in noticed during the training in Scenario THX11-38 that the clones ran through was that some of the doors and walls went up and down,

Here is a crazy idea what about the low area make them stand alone doors, someone could use door control to lock them to provide cover for advancement and it adds an interesting piece of strategy to the game. I said it was crazy....

Actually, I really like that idea, Azavander. it also gives the advantage of it being a sort of destroyable wall, if you run up with some ugos.

That could be very cool, if done properly.

That is a very unique idea. I love it. Litter the map with some Door/low objects would be very interesting.

Anyway, I think if you shortened the "wings" a bit on the citadel, down to only one square, it eases a lot of my concerns about the outside being the ideal gambit spot and protected Mobile Attackers.