logo

All times are UTC - 6 hours

Mark forums read


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 176 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next

Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Update Coming! - Your chance for input
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:45 pm 
Mandalore
Mandalore
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 7:43 pm
Posts: 1009
Location: Southern Illinois
pffft. Yea, I guess that make sense. i was thinking inches thick, not inches wide on the map lol.

_________________
WotC: 890/890
V-Set: 142/142

Wotc GTL: 52ish
Gamers GTL: 2 (dalsiandon, urbanjedi)

fingersandteeth wrote:
Also t4 for override and a cheeky flame.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Update Coming! - Your chance for input
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:43 am 
Hall of Fame Member
Hall of Fame Member

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:43 am
Posts: 1163
Location: Fremont, CA
thereisnotry wrote:
But I think he was asking about whether or not the two squares separated by double-bevelled corners are considered adjacent to each other. You don't really have to worry about pulling out a string and magnifying glass to draw a LOS when 2 squares are immediately beside each other, so the question being asked is whether a character on one of those squares can attack a character in the other square...and (if I'm understanding him correctly) he thinks you should be able to make the attack.


Sorry, I was talking about that but was a bit vague. There's no LOS there and LOS is required to be adjacent. If you allows that, then characters on the opposite sides of a thin wall are also adjacent, or you're creating more exceptions to prevent that obviously unacceptable problem and thus less simplcity. To me, it doesn't particularly hurt the game as is, so there's no need to create an exception.

_________________


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Update Coming! - Your chance for input
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:15 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
Imperial Dignitaries
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 12:42 pm
Posts: 3599
Location: New Jersey
NickName wrote:
thereisnotry wrote:
But I think he was asking about whether or not the two squares separated by double-bevelled corners are considered adjacent to each other. You don't really have to worry about pulling out a string and magnifying glass to draw a LOS when 2 squares are immediately beside each other, so the question being asked is whether a character on one of those squares can attack a character in the other square...and (if I'm understanding him correctly) he thinks you should be able to make the attack.


Sorry, I was talking about that but was a bit vague. There's no LOS there and LOS is required to be adjacent. If you allows that, then characters on the opposite sides of a thin wall are also adjacent, or you're creating more exceptions to prevent that obviously unacceptable problem and thus less simplcity. To me, it doesn't particularly hurt the game as is, so there's no need to create an exception.

Okay, now I see what you're saying. To me it's always been annoying that you can fit a body through a space that size, but not a lightsaber. However, I do see where you're coming from re: simplicity, so I agree with you that we might as well leave it as it is. One of the drawing points of SWM is that it's easy to teach the game to new players, so the less strange and obscure rules we have, the better.

But then again, if simple and elegant solution could be found, then it might be worth looking into.

_________________
"Don't give the tool more credit than the master." --Weeks
ImageImage


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Update Coming! - Your chance for input
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:32 am 
Mandalore
Mandalore
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 7:43 pm
Posts: 1009
Location: Southern Illinois
thereisnotry wrote:
But then again, if simple and elegant solution could be found, then it might be worth looking into.


An elegant solution for a mroe civilized age. :obi:

_________________
WotC: 890/890
V-Set: 142/142

Wotc GTL: 52ish
Gamers GTL: 2 (dalsiandon, urbanjedi)

fingersandteeth wrote:
Also t4 for override and a cheeky flame.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Update Coming! - Your chance for input
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:11 am 
Master of the Order
Master of the Order
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 2:46 pm
Posts: 7960
Location: West Chester, OH (near Cincinnati)
In light of the beveled corners discussion....played a game on Mapmaker's newest addition to the Crystal Cave series of maps....

That one is just plain bad for competitive play. It's ultra-pretty, and going to be great for RPG purposes. But it is riddled with beveled corner issues. Not to mention that the massive amount of rough terrain and low cover make it nearly impossible for a Melee squad to advance in safety across the map. There are several places where figures can hide only 2-3 squares outside of gambit, and be 100% protected because of the double beveled corners. To be honest, I'm not even sure if I would recommend that one for inclusion on the Standard map list.

Haven't had a chance to play the flip side yet.

_________________
-Aaron
Mand'alor
"You either die a hero, or you live to see yourself become the villain."
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Update Coming! - Your chance for input
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:39 am 
Hall of Fame Member
Hall of Fame Member

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:43 am
Posts: 1163
Location: Fremont, CA
Your experience matches mine except that we really had no issues with the beveled corner dynamics.

On the bright side, gameplay on the flip-side is really strong and gambit is pretty unique in how short the LOSes are to it.

_________________


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Update Coming! - Your chance for input
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:05 pm 
Master of the Order
Master of the Order
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 2:46 pm
Posts: 7960
Location: West Chester, OH (near Cincinnati)
NickName wrote:
Your experience matches mine except that we really had no issues with the beveled corner dynamics.

On the bright side, gameplay on the flip-side is really strong and gambit is pretty unique in how short the LOSes are to it.


Glad to hear that. Will have to try the flip side next time instead.

_________________
-Aaron
Mand'alor
"You either die a hero, or you live to see yourself become the villain."
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Update Coming! - Your chance for input
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 4:17 am 
Hall of Fame Member
Hall of Fame Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 9:57 pm
Posts: 1340
Location: Newport News, Va
When your all tossing ideas around please please please, keep maps from map pack 4 in mind as well.


Rhen Var Citadel is a top candidate for the restricted list.
Don't forget the Yavin Ruins as well in Map Pack 3

_________________
Image

"Micro-managment Breeds Incompetence"

Being a Star Wars Miniatures Hall of Famer is a Responsibilty Not a Priveledge.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Update Coming! - Your chance for input
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:54 am 
Master of the Order
Master of the Order
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 2:46 pm
Posts: 7960
Location: West Chester, OH (near Cincinnati)
IMO, Yavin Ruins is not a Restricted Map, and never should be. It has as many, if not more, problems than Death Star does. It's a GREAT Standard map, but almost every single game I play on either of those Yavin maps end up being stand-offs with both players sitting about 8-12 squares outside of gambit and trying to pick each other off.

I haven't been able to play on ANY of the MP4 maps yet, besides the two in the Mystery Map tourney. I would agree that Rhen Var looks like a good candidate for the Restricted List though, as does Peaceful City.

_________________
-Aaron
Mand'alor
"You either die a hero, or you live to see yourself become the villain."
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Update Coming! - Your chance for input
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:20 am 
Name Calling Internet Bully
Name Calling Internet Bully
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:10 pm
Posts: 6172
Location: Gurnee, IL
To be honest, I've had very little time to look at this as of yet. I think once play testing is done for DotF I will have a chance to really look at all the maps more closely, and try some games on the newer ones. I was kind of hoping others not involved in some aspect of Vset work would be looking at this, but that doesn't seem to be the case thus far. As it is, I'm pretty much in agreement with Nickname. My only addition so far is that I think Nightclub should be a restricted map.

_________________
Image

http://www.bloomilk.com/Squads/Search.aspx?UserID=29


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Update Coming! - Your chance for input
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:40 pm 
Hall of Fame Member
Hall of Fame Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:33 pm
Posts: 589
Location: Central Pennsylvania
I've only had a couple of games on Rhen Var and the squads I played maybe aren't the best test, but I think thats a good candidate for restricted. We have, however, played a lot on Peaceful City since May thanks to Matt bringing copies of that map to my regional. Multiple point levels, squad types, and players over the last 4.5 months on that map lead me to endorse that map as a candidate for the restricted list.

_________________
Cancer is not the boss of me.

Being organized is for people who are too lazy to look for their stuff.

Lasers make everything better... except Alderaan.

Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Update Coming! - Your chance for input
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 3:48 pm 
Hall of Fame Member
Hall of Fame Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 9:57 pm
Posts: 1340
Location: Newport News, Va
billiv15 wrote:
To be honest, I've had very little time to look at this as of yet. I think once play testing is done for DotF I will have a chance to really look at all the maps more closely, and try some games on the newer ones. I was kind of hoping others not involved in some aspect of Vset work would be looking at this, but that doesn't seem to be the case thus far. As it is, I'm pretty much in agreement with Nickname. My only addition so far is that I think Nightclub should be a restricted map.



We need to find 3 or 4 guys who play to just review the maps and make this happen. Off the top of my head, Darth_Jim, and FingersandTeeth are my top pocks for this.

I'm sure theres other people who would volunteer.

_________________
Image

"Micro-managment Breeds Incompetence"

Being a Star Wars Miniatures Hall of Famer is a Responsibilty Not a Priveledge.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Update Coming! - Your chance for input
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:00 pm 
Hall of Fame Member
Hall of Fame Member

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:43 am
Posts: 1163
Location: Fremont, CA
thereisnotry wrote:
Okay, now I see what you're saying. To me it's always been annoying that you can fit a body through a space that size, but not a lightsaber.


Always valuable to keep in mind the various abstractions of the game. You likely have no problem with people moving at different speeds based on which direction they move, or people being forced to wait for someone with a lightsaber to run 20 yards and swing a lightsaber at them before being able to pull a trigger once. The rule isn't saying you can't fit a lightsaber through the space, it's saying you can't attack someone effectively enough to cause them damage--that seems like a reasonable possibility in many cases, of course, factoring in how abstract "attack" and "damage" are to begin with. :lol: (The counter argument here is that technically the rule prevents you from even being able to see the guy through this gap, but whateva!)

_________________


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Update Coming! - Your chance for input
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:19 pm 
Hall of Fame Member
Hall of Fame Member

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:43 am
Posts: 1163
Location: Fremont, CA
billiv15 wrote:
To be honest, I've had very little time to look at this as of yet. I think once play testing is done for DotF I will have a chance to really look at all the maps more closely, and try some games on the newer ones. I was kind of hoping others not involved in some aspect of Vset work would be looking at this, but that doesn't seem to be the case thus far. As it is, I'm pretty much in agreement with Nickname. My only addition so far is that I think Nightclub should be a restricted map.


For those that may not recall the original discussion Nightclub was pretty close to making the list.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/ ... clude?pg=1

The first post there shows the final "ranking" of the maps and Nightclub was sitting at 8 while the cut was made at 6. Nightclub and Mos Eisley were really on the fence while 9 and below weren't particularly close at all. It was going to be 6 maps or 8 maps and the decision was made to err on the side of caution.

These two maps are quite different from the other six. The general fear was that every shooter squad would take one of these two if they were available, while with only the base 6 maps shooter squads would be spread out fairly evenly among them. The more specific fear was that these layouts could potentially cater to certain squad types too drastically like Monastery in 2009 and Geonosis/Mustafar in 2007. In particular, Nightclub allows a mobile nonmelee flier (Boba/Cad) to control gambit from the left by puddle jumping from the platform across the lava and back which creates an unreasonable distance for melee to have to chase. With Cad swaps, Boba BH machineguns, and Boba Merc shooters all being reasonably strong builds at the time there was the potential to push them over the top and make the entire change pointless since allowing such dominance creates the "that or counter-that" situation that was unpopular in both the GOWK era and the Speeder Cannon era.

History lesson over! :lol:

_________________


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Update Coming! - Your chance for input
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 2:22 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
Imperial Dignitaries
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 12:42 pm
Posts: 3599
Location: New Jersey
NickName wrote:
thereisnotry wrote:
Okay, now I see what you're saying. To me it's always been annoying that you can fit a body through a space that size, but not a lightsaber.


Always valuable to keep in mind the various abstractions of the game. You likely have no problem with people moving at different speeds based on which direction they move, or people being forced to wait for someone with a lightsaber to run 20 yards and swing a lightsaber at them before being able to pull a trigger once. The rule isn't saying you can't fit a lightsaber through the space, it's saying you can't attack someone effectively enough to cause them damage--that seems like a reasonable possibility in many cases, of course, factoring in how abstract "attack" and "damage" are to begin with. :lol: (The counter argument here is that technically the rule prevents you from even being able to see the guy through this gap, but whateva!)

Okay, fair enough. :)

_________________
"Don't give the tool more credit than the master." --Weeks
ImageImage


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Update Coming! - Your chance for input
PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 8:17 am 
Black Sun Thug
Black Sun Thug

Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 6:48 am
Posts: 56
I don't like the 1 activation if you get to go first after Inti. I like the old way of 2 activations if you win. The new way makes recon and other such abilities not as useful.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Update Coming! - Your chance for input
PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 2:06 pm 
The One True Sith Lord
The One True Sith Lord
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:12 pm
Posts: 2026
Location: Nixa,Missouri
DarthEwokFett wrote:
I don't like the 1 activation if you get to go first after Inti. I like the old way of 2 activations if you win. The new way makes recon and other such abilities not as useful.



Can you further explain your comment?

I dont see where having the ability to decide to go first becomes less valuable because of the new init rule.

_________________
ImageImage
"What is your bidding, My Master?"

Collection: 934/934

SWM DCI Content Manager


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Update Coming! - Your chance for input
PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 2:14 pm 
Mandalore
Mandalore
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 6:06 pm
Posts: 1209
Location: Aboard the Exocarrier Resalute, waiting to free all SWMer's from Tyrnany
DarthEwokFett wrote:
I don't like the 1 activation if you get to go first after Inti. I like the old way of 2 activations if you win. The new way makes recon and other such abilities not as useful.


huh? I thought it was the opposite. can you explain. And if your answer is; "Well, I can't have -(possible scenario's) R2 tow up Kota and have him bomb my opponents/ Vader can't attack again and then thrawn swap away in the first round any more and that makes me upset," then we aren't going to to agree, if it is another reason, you mentioned re-con, but didn't go further, than by all means, explain.

_________________
"Rolling a Natural 20, there is no other feeling like it."

Member of the SWMRAC
Member of the Completed till the End and Beyond Club

Come rate my squads on Bloomilk...http://www.bloomilk.com/Squads/Search.a ... dalsiandon


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Update Coming! - Your chance for input
PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:09 am 
Black Sun Thug
Black Sun Thug

Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 6:48 am
Posts: 56
The int. roll was a huge advantage and game changing sometimes. But the guys I play with loved the fact that it was a very good thing to win. It just doesn't seem as good to win now. I used recon as an example because it seems now more used for reserves them what it was designed for. It just my opinion but I like it better the was the game started.

Thanks for reading guy!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Update Coming! - Your chance for input
PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:06 pm 
Name Calling Internet Bully
Name Calling Internet Bully
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:10 pm
Posts: 6172
Location: Gurnee, IL
DarthEwokFett wrote:
The int. roll was a huge advantage and game changing sometimes. But the guys I play with loved the fact that it was a very good thing to win. It just doesn't seem as good to win now. I used recon as an example because it seems now more used for reserves them what it was designed for. It just my opinion but I like it better the was the game started.

Thanks for reading guy!


You are going to have a really hard time convincing most players that the game was better and fairer by rechanging init. The reasons you listed here, are precisely the reasons they were changed to begin with. The community by and large thought initiative was too determinative in this game, and equally important, felt that activating two led to several abusive scenarios that the community wanted to limit in their power to a degree.

Honestly, there is very little difference in actual change from this rule unless your squad is built around one of those abusive combos. As it is, getting to pull it off with two figures after your opponent has used one is only slightly less powerful, and in some situations more powerful. The only time this change makes a significant difference is specifically if you are trying to abuse a 2 figure combo. Outside of that, outcomes of games are not really changed by it.

_________________
Image

http://www.bloomilk.com/Squads/Search.aspx?UserID=29


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 176 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours

Mark forums read

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Jedi Knights style by Scott Stubblefield