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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Update Coming! - Your chance for input
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:45 pm 
Mandalore
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pffft. Yea, I guess that make sense. i was thinking inches thick, not inches wide on the map lol.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Update Coming! - Your chance for input
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:43 am 
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thereisnotry wrote:
But I think he was asking about whether or not the two squares separated by double-bevelled corners are considered adjacent to each other. You don't really have to worry about pulling out a string and magnifying glass to draw a LOS when 2 squares are immediately beside each other, so the question being asked is whether a character on one of those squares can attack a character in the other square...and (if I'm understanding him correctly) he thinks you should be able to make the attack.


Sorry, I was talking about that but was a bit vague. There's no LOS there and LOS is required to be adjacent. If you allows that, then characters on the opposite sides of a thin wall are also adjacent, or you're creating more exceptions to prevent that obviously unacceptable problem and thus less simplcity. To me, it doesn't particularly hurt the game as is, so there's no need to create an exception.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Update Coming! - Your chance for input
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:15 am 
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NickName wrote:
thereisnotry wrote:
But I think he was asking about whether or not the two squares separated by double-bevelled corners are considered adjacent to each other. You don't really have to worry about pulling out a string and magnifying glass to draw a LOS when 2 squares are immediately beside each other, so the question being asked is whether a character on one of those squares can attack a character in the other square...and (if I'm understanding him correctly) he thinks you should be able to make the attack.


Sorry, I was talking about that but was a bit vague. There's no LOS there and LOS is required to be adjacent. If you allows that, then characters on the opposite sides of a thin wall are also adjacent, or you're creating more exceptions to prevent that obviously unacceptable problem and thus less simplcity. To me, it doesn't particularly hurt the game as is, so there's no need to create an exception.

Okay, now I see what you're saying. To me it's always been annoying that you can fit a body through a space that size, but not a lightsaber. However, I do see where you're coming from re: simplicity, so I agree with you that we might as well leave it as it is. One of the drawing points of SWM is that it's easy to teach the game to new players, so the less strange and obscure rules we have, the better.

But then again, if simple and elegant solution could be found, then it might be worth looking into.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Update Coming! - Your chance for input
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:32 am 
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thereisnotry wrote:
But then again, if simple and elegant solution could be found, then it might be worth looking into.


An elegant solution for a mroe civilized age. :obi:

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Update Coming! - Your chance for input
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:11 am 
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In light of the beveled corners discussion....played a game on Mapmaker's newest addition to the Crystal Cave series of maps....

That one is just plain bad for competitive play. It's ultra-pretty, and going to be great for RPG purposes. But it is riddled with beveled corner issues. Not to mention that the massive amount of rough terrain and low cover make it nearly impossible for a Melee squad to advance in safety across the map. There are several places where figures can hide only 2-3 squares outside of gambit, and be 100% protected because of the double beveled corners. To be honest, I'm not even sure if I would recommend that one for inclusion on the Standard map list.

Haven't had a chance to play the flip side yet.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Update Coming! - Your chance for input
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:39 am 
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Your experience matches mine except that we really had no issues with the beveled corner dynamics.

On the bright side, gameplay on the flip-side is really strong and gambit is pretty unique in how short the LOSes are to it.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Update Coming! - Your chance for input
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:05 pm 
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NickName wrote:
Your experience matches mine except that we really had no issues with the beveled corner dynamics.

On the bright side, gameplay on the flip-side is really strong and gambit is pretty unique in how short the LOSes are to it.


Glad to hear that. Will have to try the flip side next time instead.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Update Coming! - Your chance for input
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 4:17 am 
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When your all tossing ideas around please please please, keep maps from map pack 4 in mind as well.


Rhen Var Citadel is a top candidate for the restricted list.
Don't forget the Yavin Ruins as well in Map Pack 3

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Update Coming! - Your chance for input
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:54 am 
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IMO, Yavin Ruins is not a Restricted Map, and never should be. It has as many, if not more, problems than Death Star does. It's a GREAT Standard map, but almost every single game I play on either of those Yavin maps end up being stand-offs with both players sitting about 8-12 squares outside of gambit and trying to pick each other off.

I haven't been able to play on ANY of the MP4 maps yet, besides the two in the Mystery Map tourney. I would agree that Rhen Var looks like a good candidate for the Restricted List though, as does Peaceful City.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Update Coming! - Your chance for input
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:20 am 
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To be honest, I've had very little time to look at this as of yet. I think once play testing is done for DotF I will have a chance to really look at all the maps more closely, and try some games on the newer ones. I was kind of hoping others not involved in some aspect of Vset work would be looking at this, but that doesn't seem to be the case thus far. As it is, I'm pretty much in agreement with Nickname. My only addition so far is that I think Nightclub should be a restricted map.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Update Coming! - Your chance for input
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:40 pm 
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I've only had a couple of games on Rhen Var and the squads I played maybe aren't the best test, but I think thats a good candidate for restricted. We have, however, played a lot on Peaceful City since May thanks to Matt bringing copies of that map to my regional. Multiple point levels, squad types, and players over the last 4.5 months on that map lead me to endorse that map as a candidate for the restricted list.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Update Coming! - Your chance for input
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 3:48 pm 
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billiv15 wrote:
To be honest, I've had very little time to look at this as of yet. I think once play testing is done for DotF I will have a chance to really look at all the maps more closely, and try some games on the newer ones. I was kind of hoping others not involved in some aspect of Vset work would be looking at this, but that doesn't seem to be the case thus far. As it is, I'm pretty much in agreement with Nickname. My only addition so far is that I think Nightclub should be a restricted map.



We need to find 3 or 4 guys who play to just review the maps and make this happen. Off the top of my head, Darth_Jim, and FingersandTeeth are my top pocks for this.

I'm sure theres other people who would volunteer.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:00 pm 
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thereisnotry wrote:
Okay, now I see what you're saying. To me it's always been annoying that you can fit a body through a space that size, but not a lightsaber.


Always valuable to keep in mind the various abstractions of the game. You likely have no problem with people moving at different speeds based on which direction they move, or people being forced to wait for someone with a lightsaber to run 20 yards and swing a lightsaber at them before being able to pull a trigger once. The rule isn't saying you can't fit a lightsaber through the space, it's saying you can't attack someone effectively enough to cause them damage--that seems like a reasonable possibility in many cases, of course, factoring in how abstract "attack" and "damage" are to begin with. :lol: (The counter argument here is that technically the rule prevents you from even being able to see the guy through this gap, but whateva!)

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Update Coming! - Your chance for input
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:19 pm 
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billiv15 wrote:
To be honest, I've had very little time to look at this as of yet. I think once play testing is done for DotF I will have a chance to really look at all the maps more closely, and try some games on the newer ones. I was kind of hoping others not involved in some aspect of Vset work would be looking at this, but that doesn't seem to be the case thus far. As it is, I'm pretty much in agreement with Nickname. My only addition so far is that I think Nightclub should be a restricted map.


For those that may not recall the original discussion Nightclub was pretty close to making the list.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/ ... clude?pg=1

The first post there shows the final "ranking" of the maps and Nightclub was sitting at 8 while the cut was made at 6. Nightclub and Mos Eisley were really on the fence while 9 and below weren't particularly close at all. It was going to be 6 maps or 8 maps and the decision was made to err on the side of caution.

These two maps are quite different from the other six. The general fear was that every shooter squad would take one of these two if they were available, while with only the base 6 maps shooter squads would be spread out fairly evenly among them. The more specific fear was that these layouts could potentially cater to certain squad types too drastically like Monastery in 2009 and Geonosis/Mustafar in 2007. In particular, Nightclub allows a mobile nonmelee flier (Boba/Cad) to control gambit from the left by puddle jumping from the platform across the lava and back which creates an unreasonable distance for melee to have to chase. With Cad swaps, Boba BH machineguns, and Boba Merc shooters all being reasonably strong builds at the time there was the potential to push them over the top and make the entire change pointless since allowing such dominance creates the "that or counter-that" situation that was unpopular in both the GOWK era and the Speeder Cannon era.

History lesson over! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Update Coming! - Your chance for input
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 2:22 pm 
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NickName wrote:
thereisnotry wrote:
Okay, now I see what you're saying. To me it's always been annoying that you can fit a body through a space that size, but not a lightsaber.


Always valuable to keep in mind the various abstractions of the game. You likely have no problem with people moving at different speeds based on which direction they move, or people being forced to wait for someone with a lightsaber to run 20 yards and swing a lightsaber at them before being able to pull a trigger once. The rule isn't saying you can't fit a lightsaber through the space, it's saying you can't attack someone effectively enough to cause them damage--that seems like a reasonable possibility in many cases, of course, factoring in how abstract "attack" and "damage" are to begin with. :lol: (The counter argument here is that technically the rule prevents you from even being able to see the guy through this gap, but whateva!)

Okay, fair enough. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Update Coming! - Your chance for input
PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 8:17 am 
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I don't like the 1 activation if you get to go first after Inti. I like the old way of 2 activations if you win. The new way makes recon and other such abilities not as useful.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 2:06 pm 
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DarthEwokFett wrote:
I don't like the 1 activation if you get to go first after Inti. I like the old way of 2 activations if you win. The new way makes recon and other such abilities not as useful.



Can you further explain your comment?

I dont see where having the ability to decide to go first becomes less valuable because of the new init rule.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Update Coming! - Your chance for input
PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 2:14 pm 
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DarthEwokFett wrote:
I don't like the 1 activation if you get to go first after Inti. I like the old way of 2 activations if you win. The new way makes recon and other such abilities not as useful.


huh? I thought it was the opposite. can you explain. And if your answer is; "Well, I can't have -(possible scenario's) R2 tow up Kota and have him bomb my opponents/ Vader can't attack again and then thrawn swap away in the first round any more and that makes me upset," then we aren't going to to agree, if it is another reason, you mentioned re-con, but didn't go further, than by all means, explain.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Update Coming! - Your chance for input
PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:09 am 
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The int. roll was a huge advantage and game changing sometimes. But the guys I play with loved the fact that it was a very good thing to win. It just doesn't seem as good to win now. I used recon as an example because it seems now more used for reserves them what it was designed for. It just my opinion but I like it better the was the game started.

Thanks for reading guy!


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:06 pm 
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DarthEwokFett wrote:
The int. roll was a huge advantage and game changing sometimes. But the guys I play with loved the fact that it was a very good thing to win. It just doesn't seem as good to win now. I used recon as an example because it seems now more used for reserves them what it was designed for. It just my opinion but I like it better the was the game started.

Thanks for reading guy!


You are going to have a really hard time convincing most players that the game was better and fairer by rechanging init. The reasons you listed here, are precisely the reasons they were changed to begin with. The community by and large thought initiative was too determinative in this game, and equally important, felt that activating two led to several abusive scenarios that the community wanted to limit in their power to a degree.

Honestly, there is very little difference in actual change from this rule unless your squad is built around one of those abusive combos. As it is, getting to pull it off with two figures after your opponent has used one is only slightly less powerful, and in some situations more powerful. The only time this change makes a significant difference is specifically if you are trying to abuse a 2 figure combo. Outside of that, outcomes of games are not really changed by it.

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