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| Author: | billiv15 [ Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:01 pm ] |
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I would say using the huges to settle the range/melee question will not help, as we also know huges are getting boosted as well - probably by new costing. Comparing the Uggernaught to a Barc is pretty meaningless in this debate NN. |
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| Author: | Sithborg [ Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:28 pm ] |
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Actually, I think it should, because since we KNOW they are getting help, and should be a sign of powercreep, it should be evidence of how far they are going with shooters. |
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| Author: | punxnbutter [ Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:33 pm ] |
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Comparing the lackluster BARC and the new pricing scheme for huges doesn't make any sense. Melee and hges are in the midst of being recost; Rob had already stated this. There should not be a fear of power creep on huges since they've been largely uncompetitive to this point. |
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| Author: | billiv15 [ Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:34 pm ] |
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Sithborg wrote: Actually, I think it should, because since we KNOW they are getting help, and should be a sign of powercreep, it should be evidence of how far they are going with shooters.
No, because by using them, we cannot eliminate the huge variable. We can set perhaps an upper limit (regular shooters should not get as much help as huges), but that really helps us little. |
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| Author: | Gemini1179 [ Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:28 pm ] |
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Is anyone really going to use the Uggernaught in a non-Thrawn squad? Obviously we don't know what the other two Uggies will add to the situation (other than Self Destruct 10...) but again, how does that not help the case for only using it in a Thrawn squad? I guess I shouldn't really talk until the rest of the set is known, after all, so many of the non-unique fringe became more interesting in a Rebel squad over a Thrawn squad thanks to the Ithorian Commander. However, there is still that urge to look at every new non-unique Fringer and wonder not - "is this a good fringe piece for any faction?" but rather, "is it playable in a Thrawn squad?"- at least, that's how it is for me. As far as melee upgrading since COTF, in my own opinion, the way the game stands now, any Unique Melee with a def under 20 is simply cannon fodder if not played extremely well. To say the JWM is melee that is competitive is simply not good enough. What Republic squad is competitive using multiple Unique Jedi? For that matter, does anyone run Luke COTF competitively? Crubls (not sure the spelling, haven't played it) is said to be competitive, but how many of those ladies are actual Melee? 1? 2? Certainly not the ones that do the most damage. That's why I'm thinking that while I find him interesting, a character like Kazdan Paratus simply would be an easy 55 pts for Han Scoundrel + Obi FS, or Boba BH, or Mara Jade, Jango BH... because he'll never kill his point value in enemies against a decent opponent. In larger point games (mass battles, etc where Gambit isn't in effect) however, Kazdan will dominate for sure, but from what I've read of the competitive game, I just don't see him being an upgrade to melee. To differentiate: Unique Melee doesn't need more 'gimicky' or 'niche' Jedi, they need more mobility, 100+ HP and 20+ def pieces. There are simply too many ways to do 120 damage in 2 rounds with one character these days. Ex: CS Saesee 100 HP 26 cost and CS Agen Kolar 120 HP and 29 cost. 55pts together, does anyone believe they have a chance against a lone Mara Jade? Hell no. Even if they are based on the first round that attacks are being made - the two of them together would need 3 rounds to kill her- if she doesn't kill either of them in those two rounds which is incredibly unlikely. NOW, imagine if both those figs had Double Attack and/or Lightsaber Assault. We wouldn't even be having this conversation because we'd be drowning in competitive melee... I don't know about drowning, but you get the idea. (Adding a 72pt commander does not make things more competitive- at least not in the sanctioned builds) As for non-unique melee: do players really want the bulk of the competitive melee to be non-unique? I don't know about other players, but I couldn't get 'into' DDM for the sole reason that I can't relate to the vast amount of non-unique figs. I understand there are a few uniques (34ish), but I simply don't think I could find some kind of excitement for a new "Artemis Entreri" or "Rikka, Angelic Avenger" (although her sculpt is a little hot) because there is nothing else to find attachment with. IMO Star Wars has a rich volume of cannon and is defined by it's unique characters. Am I crazy here? Am I the only one who wants an improvement in simplicity? Thanks to anyone who read my little rant. Definitely not picking on anyone here, just venting some thoughts. |
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| Author: | Sithdragon13 [ Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:13 am ] |
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@EMR - Its from the game. If you aren't liking that then you might as well quit now because if stuff from the game is causing you problems, then what problems are the figs from the TV shows going to cause you? At the pro uggernaught people - I have to agree with Klecser from the other boards. Its another piece that only works if you use thrawn. Not real exciting. Besides, it wont work as well as the goof birds because without flight, good luck getting them into position without getting them wailed on. These are going to have the same movement problems as Rancors. You will get one up and either swap or wait a turn that gives the opponent a turn to either take it out or base it with a big fig. Dumb down the opposing team and it could be a fun squad, but just not real thrilled with it. For a piece to be a decepnt huge it has to work outside of a thrawn swap squad. |
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| Author: | emr131 [ Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:36 am ] |
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Sithdragon13 wrote: @EMR - Its from the game. If you aren't liking that then you might as well quit now because if stuff from the game is causing you problems, then what problems are the figs from the TV shows going to cause you?
I only see a reference to the minis game in wookieepedia for the uggernaught. If it is from the upcoming video game, that is different. I will apologize if that is the case, I will repeat that if it is not, then it is a weird figure to be made. At everyone not telling Nickname to compare the Barc to the Uggernaught, I first made the comparison. I did it because the Barc and the Basilisk are the huges that can attack multiple characters like the uggernaught. [edit]And how about this idea for a non Thrawn Uggernaught build... Nom Anor. Just sitting back and shooting without worrying about incoming fire. |
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| Author: | LoboStele [ Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:58 am ] |
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How does anybody know it's from the game? I think it's a decent assumption that the junk planet of Raxus Prime might have Ugnaughts there, but there's no guarantee. I've yet to see any concept art for the game showing an Uggernaught. Probably a good possibility though. Bill's squad is certainly a decent one, but I have to agree with Sithdragon here. Huges need to be playable outside of Thrawn swap squads. 
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| Author: | billiv15 [ Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:34 am ] |
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Thrawn is the best option for nonunique huges because of the +3/+3. That won't change until we get a better commander for them. Had they given the Ugger a better atk/def you would still run it with thrawn for the added +3/+3. It has nothing to do with the design of te figure, but with the abilities of thrawn. I will also run this guy with Nom and Xizor at somepoint. As well as in an IC Ugo/Ugo Boss squad. It is certainly still playable outside of thrawn. Its just thrawn gives him the best bonus, so thats where you start with any non-unique. |
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| Author: | Gemini1179 [ Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:11 am ] |
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billiv15 wrote: Thrawn is the best option for nonunique huges because of the +3/+3. That won't change until we get a better commander for them.
Had they given the Ugger a better atk/def you would still run it with thrawn for the added +3/+3. It has nothing to do with the design of the figure, but with the abilities of thrawn. IMO, this is a major problem (some people may not see it as a problem) with the game right now, although the IC is evidence of the right step being taken in game design and I'd like to see more of this outside-the-box thinking applied to other factions in the future. |
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| Author: | billiv15 [ Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:24 am ] |
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Gemini1179 wrote: IMO, this is a major problem (some people may not see it as a problem) with the game right now, although the IC is evidence of the right step being taken in game design and I'd like to see more of this outside-the-box thinking applied to other factions in the future.
I wouldnt call it a major problem for a couple of reasons. First, I dont want a lot of thrawn's - one is enough. But creative solutions like the IC are great for the game. I think Kazadan is a great example. While not top end competitive he certainly brings non-uniqe droids into an all new arena. I would call it "opportunity"  You cant expect there to be lots of thrawn's. But we can expecr Rob to continue to bring out seldom used pieces as he has shown several times now, he is looking to do. Blizzard Scout One looks to help as well. So they are coming - patience my young padawn
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| Author: | fingersandteeth [ Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:42 am ] |
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billiv15 wrote: Uggernaught Swapping - a Version of the Old Dactyllian Swapping squad I used to run. Try to tell me this sucks Thrawn/Mas 45 Veers 21 Jabba Crime Lord 15 Stormtrooper Commander 15 Death Star Gunner 11 Uggernaught X2 68 Stormy X3 15 Ugo X3 9 199pts 14 activations. If your gonna have that Fat slug in a team with Thrawn then you might aswell add a swoop. You get an awsome +12 on cunning attacks with the swoop (which will be accurate) for early game strikes and you can actually mobilize jabba for a kill shot in the end game if you can keep the swoop alive. Replace the gunner with a swoop. |
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| Author: | NickName [ Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:05 am ] |
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Quote: Yep, ewoks, stormies, and aqualish assassins require a bit of help too. Are you disputing that those characters are not good because they require help?
My point wasn't commanders in general but 100 points of commanders in a 200 point squad! What's so great about an Uggernaut with a more reasonable amount of commanders? Say the more typical 50 points worth? The BARC was bad to begin with. If the Uggernaught had been priced at 50 people would be saying "great, huges will still be completely unplayable in Force Unleashed." So one is priced a bit more aggressively and now it's just another sign of "powercreep". At what price would Uggernaut be right? Both "playable" and "accurately costed"? It seems it will always be one or the other. 35-40 seems about right to me considering the godawful Attack and the fact that its 12 move is really only going to be effectively 7-8 squares most of the time. How is something that will "only be played with Thrawn" and maybe be top tier when you have 50% of your squad just buffing it, be a sign of powercreep? Regarding Thrawn, I'm pretty sure Rob said publicly at some point he's intended to be the best commander in the game, and so I think it's pretty likely he'll stay that way and every new non-U Imp piece (including fringe) will always be considered with him. I don't think he'll be "powercreeped" by other commanders over time. In fact, I hope we see more stuff like Never Tell Me The Odds that cut into his dominance some. |
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| Author: | billiv15 [ Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:32 am ] |
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fingersandteeth wrote: If your gonna have that Fat slug in a team with Thrawn then you might aswell add a swoop. You get an awsome +12 on cunning attacks with the swoop (which will be accurate) for early game strikes and you can actually mobilize jabba for a kill shot in the end game if you can keep the swoop alive.
Replace the gunner with a swoop. I revamped the squad already on the version I posted on some thread on WotC. i dropped the gunner and the toopers for 6 Bespin Gaurds. A swoop might replace two of them, as I like that option. I also am assuming I might want a Noble in there as well, but time will tell. Great idea though, should have thought of that one
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| Author: | punxnbutter [ Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:03 pm ] |
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the Uggernaught is a bit competitive, but not power creeped at all. Slightly aggressive yes, but huges need that to compensate for movement and map restrictions. |
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| Author: | ChonChuuk [ Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:20 pm ] |
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punxnbutter wrote: the Uggernaught is a bit competitive, but not power creeped at all. Slightly aggressive yes, but huges need that to compensate for movement and map restrictions.
I agree for the most part. However, like my post on the other Powercreep thread, I think Creep in inevitable. The trick is to minimize it while including pieces that bring old stuff up the Creep scale to compensate. I think the Uggernaught does have a little creep, but it is minimal and may be necessary because of it being a huge and the lack of playing opportunity that comes with huges. |
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| Author: | krayt_dragon [ Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:22 pm ] |
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The Uggernaut looks like a lot of fun. I like throwing lots of dice, even if they're relatively ineffective attacks. I don't think the Uggernaut is powercreep. With it's low attack, it really isn't good for much other than sweeping out five point shooters too stupid to find cover. And with its low defense, it'll get hacked down really fast. At 50 points it be worthless. I just think it's fun you can do an Uggernaut theme team now. |
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| Author: | punxnbutter [ Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:35 pm ] |
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Yea this is the anti-Vong piece. They never roll and now Uggies roll all day long. I enjoy these alterations in play style that come with certain pieces. |
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| Author: | homer_sapien [ Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:25 pm ] |
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punxnbutter wrote: Yea this is the anti-Vong piece. They never roll and now Uggies roll all day long. I enjoy these alterations in play style that come with certain pieces.
You could play this against a Vong squad and your opponent will only need his D20 for iniative. When its your turn you're rolling a bunch of dice for attacks, when its his you're rolling for Thud Bug and/or poison saves. |
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| Author: | punxnbutter [ Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:54 pm ] |
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I like that the Vong play that way; they're alien even in their play mechanics....one side rolling non-stop with their movement and the Vong never rolling
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