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Does Yobuck/Lancer need a counter?
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Author:  AdmiralMotti89 [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Does Yobuck/Lancer need a counter?

2 Biggest problems for me in the game are the nerfing of both swarm and Savage builds. I am sick of seeing Yobuck/Anistap combos 50% of the time, with lancers another 15-20%.

-Rope Trap: Allies within 6 squares may not be attacked by enemies using Strafe Attack or Galloping Attack.
(Ewok Scout (Alternate))

(note it does not say "with," it says "using")

Or another text idea for Rope Trap: Whenever an enemy using Strafe Attack or Galloping Attack attacks an ally within 6 squares, that enemy must make a save of 11 or it is defeated (after attack is resolved).

A CE:
-Savage Characters are subject to these effects: Allies with Savage may ignore enemies' Diplomat Special Ability. When an ally with Savage hits two or more attacks on one enemy in the same turn, that enemy is considered activated this round, save 11.

Another special ability not solving a specific problem, but just somthing that makes sense for Jabba.
-Bounty: After setup, choose 1 enemy Unique Character. Fringe Allies get +4 attack against that character.
(Jabba the Hutt (Alternate))

Author:  AdmiralMotti89 [ Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting Close to making our list so give us your input!!!

Wedge772 wrote:
AdmiralMotti89: Agreed that swarm squads need a boost to combat Strafe/Galloping. However, I'd really like to see a concept that didn't specifically name those abilities. I'd much rather we didn't start going into direct counter abilities if we can help it.


I would think that direct counter abilities have been made quite often already, even though it's not explicit in the wording of those abilities.

IMO, rope trap a a great representation of an ewok lassoing a speeder bike (and by extension tripping up some kind of animal). I'm not sure what the problem would be if it were a "direct counter"...
1. Representing (IMO quite well) an ewok tactice that was determined cool enough to be put in RotJ
2. Countering 3 pieces that have completely destroyed the viability of a swarm squad.
3. Continuing in the tradition of an immense number of direct counters already made, even though the name of what is countered is not always explicitly stated.

The Ueber-Strafers and Galloper (and Diplomat/savage interaction) were Wizards' mistake. I don't see how letting those mistakes continue can be beneficial over just avoiding the appearance of making direct-counter pieces. I'm not sure why people think direct counters should be avoided. Maybe there's a good reason that I haven;t been able to figure out.

Author:  billiv15 [ Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting Close to making our list so give us your input!!!

AdmiralMotti89 wrote:
The Ueber-Strafers and Galloper (and Diplomat/savage interaction) were Wizards' mistake. I don't see how letting those mistakes continue can be beneficial over just avoiding the appearance of making direct-counter pieces. I'm not sure why people think direct counters should be avoided. Maybe there's a good reason that I haven;t been able to figure out.


Whoa there. Careful, your statements are not only false in terms of intention, but also I believe fail in terms of meta analysis. Swarms were not generally competitive pre Lancer and Yodabuck. So to say that these two "destroyed" them is untrue. You don't face a lancer or yoda every squad, and at least two of the commonly played swarms already have direct counters (Mon Mothma and Self Destruct).

Further, both Strafe and Gallop were around since set 1 and 2 respectively. They were never considered "uber" in anyway on the Commando on Speeder or the Gungan on Picador. However, at the time Yoda and the Lancer came out, I think you need to look at what the meta was and how these interacted. They were absolutely significant in bringing the game closer to balance as no longer was outactivating with cheap figures the sure fire way to win that it seemed to be. They also provided much needed movement breakers to the two factions that brought them back to the top of the competitive game without replacing the factions that were already there. I'd say they were hardly a "mistake", instead they were counters to the way the game was being abused prior to that, and most certainly have been a good thing for the game long term.

The interactions with swarms shouldn't be seen completely as a terrible side interaction either. Sure, there are some squads that this ends even their limited viability, but for everyone of you who liked them, there are at least as many people who for years have absolutely hated swarms, and thought they broke the game more than anything else.

Personally, I don't see gallop or strafe as particularly more dominant than a number of other figures/abilities, and a counter here or there would be fine as long as it's balanced, not cheap fringe and completely nerfing the viability of strafe/gallop. Personally, I don't think it's that hard even with swarms to set yourself up to be able to deal with those two as it is.

For example, if you are running a Rebel swarm with the IC (one of the things people believe are dead in the current meta), what's stopping you from running 5-8 ugnaughts (they get the +4/10) and including an ugnaught boss as a reinforcement option? You can easily set up 50-80 self destruct damage without changing the rest of your swarm in a significant way which if you play it well, can take out a lancer. As for dealing with Yoda on Kybuck, why would you not be prepared with a swarm with some back up plan? Straight 20-30 activation swarms with 16 CEs were never viable anyways. You always had to include some back up and support that wasn't totally dependant on CEs and so on to function. Why are people not doing that now? For example, I often ran IC swarms at 200 with Luke CotF as a support figure. I'd probably include Zuckuss in many cases now. I would think 80 damage AoOs (Chagrin as reinforcement against Yoda) would pretty much keep him under control, as well as Zuckuss sticking him in place.

As for other factions like Imperials, one thing I almost always do is use a Kel Dor as a reinforcement and force the strafe to go over it. Sure, my stormies may die (but I have back up plans anyways), but 40 dmg on the lancer is very significant, even if it still kills much of my squad. I kill it in response, and we are basically even up in terms of power.

So no, we don't need direct counters to those two abilities. Making options that offer a way to help against them in certain factions, that's fine. Direct counters are often not very useful anyways (Never Tell me the Odds for example).

Author:  AdmiralMotti89 [ Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting Close to making our list so give us your input!!!

billiv15 wrote:
Whoa there. Careful, your statements are not only false in terms of intention, but also I believe fail in terms of meta analysis. Swarms were not generally competitive pre Lancer and Yodabuck. So to say that these two "destroyed" them is untrue. You don't face a lancer or yoda every squad, and at least two of the commonly played swarms already have direct counters (Mon Mothma and Self Destruct).


Who said anything about meta? Careful, your statements might indicate that Gamers is the Meta-only obsessed site that many have suggested it is (Btw, how can I have a false intention? Please clarify.)

billiv15 wrote:
Further, both Strafe and Gallop were around since set 1 and 2 respectively. They were never considered "uber" in anyway on the Commando on Speeder or the Gungan on Picador. However, at the time Yoda and the Lancer came out, I think you need to look at what the meta was and how these interacted. They were absolutely significant in bringing the game closer to balance as no longer was outactivating with cheap figures the sure fire way to win that it seemed to be. They also provided much needed movement breakers to the two factions that brought them back to the top of the competitive game without replacing the factions that were already there. I'd say they were hardly a "mistake", instead they were counters to the way the game was being abused prior to that, and most certainly have been a good thing for the game long term.


I was not referring to the originals. I suppose I could have been clearer, but I think that “ueber-strafers” is sufficiently clear to indicate the strafers that are “ueber,” not all strafers/gallopers.

billiv15 wrote:
The interactions with swarms shouldn't be seen completely as a terrible side interaction either. Sure, there are some squads that this ends even their limited viability, but for everyone of you who liked them, there are at least as many people who for years have absolutely hated swarms, and thought they broke the game more than anything else.


I don’t buy it. Who thought that? Which swarms were broken? Did swarm squads cause half of a squad to be dead by the second phase, with no realistic counter other than Mon Mothma?

billiv15 wrote:
Personally, I don't see gallop or strafe as particularly more dominant than a number of other figures/abilities, and a counter here or there would be fine as long as it's balanced, not cheap fringe and completely nerfing the viability of strafe/gallop. Personally, I don't think it's that hard even with swarms to set yourself up to be able to deal with those two as it is.


Maybe if you get a friendly map, but on several maps, Doombot+Yobuck can get yobuck to the enemy by phase 2.

billiv15 wrote:
For example, if you are running a Rebel swarm with the IC (one of the things people believe are dead in the current meta), what's stopping you from running 5-8 ugnaughts (they get the +4/10) and including an ugnaught boss as a reinforcement option? You can easily set up 50-80 self destruct damage without changing the rest of your swarm in a significant way which if you play it well, can take out a lancer. As for dealing with Yoda on Kybuck, why would you not be prepared with a swarm with some back up plan? Straight 20-30 activation swarms with 16 CEs were never viable anyways. You always had to include some back up and support that wasn't totally dependant on CEs and so on to function. Why are people not doing that now? For example, I often ran IC swarms at 200 with Luke CotF as a support figure. I'd probably include Zuckuss in many cases now. I would think 80 damage AoOs (Chagrin as reinforcement against Yoda) would pretty much keep him under control, as well as Zuckuss sticking him in place.


Again, you bring meta in right away. My point is that I don’t see how any swarm outside of Mon Mothma could hope to deal with Yobuck. He has speed, attack, and HP. Even Lancers have some semblance of balance with their fragility. But getting 3-4 activations before Yobuck mows you over doesn’t really give much time. How does Luke or zuckuss counter yobuck when all yobuck needs to do is survive with his immense HP long enough for Anistap to swap in? I suppose it depends heavily on the map, but I don’t imagine yobuck having too much trouble avoiding Zuckuss.

I doubt the nerfing of swarm squads even in casual games is worth having Yobuck at all. But, with a strafe/gallop counter, not only will Yobuck be far from worthless, but yobuck vs a swam wouldn’t be decided in the first round most of the time anymore.

Author:  LoboStele [ Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting Close to making our list so give us your input!!!

AdmiralMotti89 wrote:
billiv15 wrote:
Whoa there. Careful, your statements are not only false in terms of intention, but also I believe fail in terms of meta analysis. Swarms were not generally competitive pre Lancer and Yodabuck. So to say that these two "destroyed" them is untrue. You don't face a lancer or yoda every squad, and at least two of the commonly played swarms already have direct counters (Mon Mothma and Self Destruct).


Who said anything about meta? Careful, your statements might indicate that Gamers is the Meta-only obsessed site that many have suggested it is (Btw, how can I have a false intention? Please clarify.)


Ummm...how can it NOT be about meta? If you have no concern for meta, then it doesn't matter if Yobuck/Lancer are strong or not. You just decide with your friends that nobody's going to run them anymore. If the problem is that you've got one or more guys at your store that ALWAYS run Yobuck/Lancer, then honestly, it's no different than the people that ALWAYS ran Black & Blue or Mando Scouts in previous years. There's always something you can do to encourage those people to play different squads.

Meta HAS to be somewhat of a focus with developing new pieces. This is an argument that people have had time and time again. A piece that is made just for fun does not support the tournament scene. But a piece that is designed to support the tournament scene can also be fun. So, new pieces really need to follow the 2nd format. To do that, it has to be done with a meta analysis in mind.

Yes, those of us who post primarily on Gamers tend to be more competitive/meta focused. Is that a bad thing? No. That's why we've volunteered to take the reigns on for making sure the competitive side of SWMs continues to thrive. People who don't care about the meta, or are just playing for fun, can use their own customs, or anything they pull of the forums if they want to. But for a structured, competitive, tournament environment, there has to be some order, and that requires proper meta analysis to achieve.

I agree 100% with Bill here. Direct Counters have oftentimes not been the direction to go with this game. More often than not, they have failed to actually impact the meta (NTMTO is the good example Bill pointed out). More subtle things, like Zuckuss' Snare Rifle are the way to go. Makes a good counter to specific things, but also works against a wider range of enemies as well.

If a counter is truly needed for Yobuck/Lancer (which I'm not convinced it is), then it would be better done with things like Deathstrike SAs/CEs, other Self-Destruct type pieces, or more Disruptive for some of the other factions.

Author:  AdmiralMotti89 [ Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting Close to making our list so give us your input!!!

LoboStele wrote:
AdmiralMotti89 wrote:
billiv15 wrote:
Whoa there. Careful, your statements are not only false in terms of intention, but also I believe fail in terms of meta analysis. Swarms were not generally competitive pre Lancer and Yodabuck. So to say that these two "destroyed" them is untrue. You don't face a lancer or yoda every squad, and at least two of the commonly played swarms already have direct counters (Mon Mothma and Self Destruct).


Who said anything about meta? Careful, your statements might indicate that Gamers is the Meta-only obsessed site that many have suggested it is (Btw, how can I have a false intention? Please clarify.)


Ummm...how can it NOT be about meta? If you have no concern for meta, then it doesn't matter if Yobuck/Lancer are strong or not. You just decide with your friends that nobody's going to run them anymore. If the problem is that you've got one or more guys at your store that ALWAYS run Yobuck/Lancer, then honestly, it's no different than the people that ALWAYS ran Black & Blue or Mando Scouts in previous years. There's always something you can do to encourage those people to play different squads.

Meta HAS to be somewhat of a focus with developing new pieces. This is an argument that people have had time and time again. A piece that is made just for fun does not support the tournament scene. But a piece that is designed to support the tournament scene can also be fun. So, new pieces really need to follow the 2nd format. To do that, it has to be done with a meta analysis in mind.

Yes, those of us who post primarily on Gamers tend to be more competitive/meta focused. Is that a bad thing? No. That's why we've volunteered to take the reigns on for making sure the competitive side of SWMs continues to thrive. People who don't care about the meta, or are just playing for fun, can use their own customs, or anything they pull of the forums if they want to. But for a structured, competitive, tournament environment, there has to be some order, and that requires proper meta analysis to achieve.

I agree 100% with Bill here. Direct Counters have oftentimes not been the direction to go with this game. More often than not, they have failed to actually impact the meta (NTMTO is the good example Bill pointed out). More subtle things, like Zuckuss' Snare Rifle are the way to go. Makes a good counter to specific things, but also works against a wider range of enemies as well.

If a counter is truly needed for Yobuck/Lancer (which I'm not convinced it is), then it would be better done with things like Deathstrike SAs/CEs, other Self-Destruct type pieces, or more Disruptive for some of the other factions.


I never siad it had nothing to do with meta. However, bills comments had ONLY to do with meta. I think we all know that there's some importance to be considered for those who don't play ueber competitively. What I really want to hear is someone justify that the existence of Yobuck (in the game as it is now)is worth having an entire squad type become futile. Evidently swamrm squads weren;t meta before yobuck. In that regard, this can't be a 100% meta focused discussion IMO.

Author:  LoboStele [ Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting Close to making our list so give us your input!!!

AdmiralMotti89 wrote:
I never siad it had nothing to do with meta. However, bills comments had ONLY to do with meta. I think we all know that there's some importance to be considered for those who don't play ueber competitively. What I really want to hear is someone justify that the existence of Yobuck is worth having an entire squad type become futile. Evidently swamrm squads weren;t meta before yobuck. In that regard, this can't be a 100% meta focused discussion IMO.


It has little to do with 'meta' honestly. Swarm squads weren't that good PERIOD. Within a competitive meta or just on the table at home. And if you're talking about the table at home, then meta and Yobuck mean squat anyways. So, from Bill's (and mine) perspective, there's no point in discussing it in any terms other than regarding the meta, because that's the only place where it matters. So, to simply assert that we need a Yobuck/Lancer counter in order to make swarms playable again....well, Bill was just pointing out that swarms weren't playable before anyways. At least, they weren't competitive, and about the only way you saw an actual swarm squad, was really more like Dodonna/San and 10 Ugos just so you could out-activate your opponent. 'Swarm' squads like Swoop Gang guys, or Ugo-Bomb swarms, or Nom Bombs, or Trooper swarms (outside of Vader IC), were never competitive builds anyway, so Yobuck/Lancer really did nothing to change that, and adding in a counter against Strafe/Gallop wouldn't bring any of those back to the top either.

And I highly doubt that Bill meant his comments to mean that he only cared about the meta. You guys should all know that most of us enjoy the fun aspects of the game as much as anything. But when it comes to creating new pieces/abilities, the key points have to be based around: 1) is it broken? and 2) does it actually do something for the game? Well, #1 is easy to figure out most of the time. #2 is trickier, but what would be the point of creating a new piece if it doesn't do anything for the game (see Toydarian Soldier).

So yes, meta and new pieces are going to be closely associated.

Author:  jonnyb815 [ Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting Close to making our list so give us your input!!!

My Gungan squad at 150 last year? how many minis do you have to have for a swarm is it +10 to count as a swarm?
at 100 you could play a swarm?
I dont think there needs to be a counter. Just give use more minis for swarms with 50+ hp like the WEW and WWF. HPs for swarms is the way to go its the best counter to the lancer and yoda.

My WEW yes it was only 4 but that could play with the Lancer and yodabuck at 150 back when CW was out.
I guess I am lost at whats going on.

Author:  NickName [ Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting Close to making our list so give us your input!!!

Toydarian actually brings something new. He's a non-melee 5 point flyer where we only had melee before in the Mynock. Pick a better example. :lol:

Jonny's right. (ugh, so tough to say! ;) ) Your swarm needs 30HP dudes to compete with Kybuck or 50HP to survive Lancer. So only the cheapies of a massive swarm have trouble.

Author:  billiv15 [ Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting Close to making our list so give us your input!!!

LoboStele wrote:
And I highly doubt that Bill meant his comments to mean that he only cared about the meta. You guys should all know that most of us enjoy the fun aspects of the game as much as anything. But when it comes to creating new pieces/abilities, the key points have to be based around: 1) is it broken? and 2) does it actually do something for the game? Well, #1 is easy to figure out most of the time. #2 is trickier, but what would be the point of creating a new piece if it doesn't do anything for the game (see Toydarian Soldier).

So yes, meta and new pieces are going to be closely associated.


Yep, and it was in the post he quoted. Instead of reading it carefully for what I was actually saying, he chose to use the usual "all you care about is meta" argument. It's stupid. There is nothing in my post that allows you to claim it was "all about meta" in anyway. You can only make it so by interpreting it that way, but there are a number of fairly clear markers denoting I'm talking about the wider game in a number of places.

Again, wasn't saying no piece should ever counter gallop/strafe, but I would very much disagree that making a direct counter to gallop/strafe would do anything at all beneficial to the game, played at any level. And any effects it would have, would have very little to do with making swarms better.

As to Motti challenging my comment that a lot of people complained about high activation squads before yoda and lancer, well I'm not going thread hunting, you will simply have to trust that there were a lot back in the day from a person who remembers debating the strength of swarms personally. If you choose not to believe me, oh well.

And as to your objection that I use the word "meta" when referring to your criticism of the piece. Well quite frankly man, you don't know what the word means. It is exactly the issue you bring up as the problem with strafe/gallop. Complaining about certain swarms not being playable or whatever is a meta question lol. I didn't bring it up in anyway, I simply responded to your own "meta" concerns and issues, that you brought up. Just because I used the dirty word meta, doesn't mean anything about Gamers in particular. You claimed a meta issue, I responded in kind. Nothing more, nothing less.

And finally, you ignored of my central points. Pure swarms were never very good. Interpret that as a comment about the game generally. They were also rarely fun games for opponents. They often led to blow outs, slow play issues, and sometimes abuse of the rules. But mixed swarms (those with swarm tendancies and back up plans) were the only ones, and have remained such in the face of Yoda and Lancer significant squads. Again, it's more about being creative and not sticking all your eggs in one basket than anything else. This has been true of SWMs forever, so to point it out is nothing new. Swarms of many types are perfectly viable, and even when they lose to a well played lancer or Yobuck, they beat enough other things that taking a 40-60 odds bad matchup in 200 isn't that big of a deal - particularly when there are so many counter options already available.

You asked for a counter to yobuck - try zuckuss. Try Vader Scourge or some other reposte. Try disruptive. Try things with 30-40 or more hps for your swarm - so on and so forth.

Author:  billiv15 [ Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting Close to making our list so give us your input!!!

AdmiralMotti89 wrote:
I never siad it had nothing to do with meta. However, bills comments had ONLY to do with meta. I think we all know that there's some importance to be considered for those who don't play ueber competitively. What I really want to hear is someone justify that the existence of Yobuck (in the game as it is now)is worth having an entire squad type become futile. Evidently swamrm squads weren;t meta before yobuck. In that regard, this can't be a 100% meta focused discussion IMO.


Can't have it both ways champ. You are making a "meta" issue here again, right after criticizing me for it lol.

Yoda is good for competitive play in a number of ways. Even if for a moment, we accept what you claim at face value (that yoda makes (certain) swarms futile) that is a very relatively small amount of squads compared to the much greater number that are made viable by preventing squad types that can deal with some of the more abusive activation control squads. Yoda might remove 1-2 builds from the meta, but easily brings back 15-20. That's more than enough reason right then and there.

Further, for other types of play, Yoda provides all kinds of neat movement breaker options and swap options that the Republic needed. In casual play, you shouldn't be abusing things anyways, but it certainly is fun to use Yoda to swap in a Roron or Aurra for sweeps, etc. I really don't see why casual play matters in this regard. If you don't like gallop outside of tournament play, it's pretty darn easy to deal with that problem on your own. Here's how you do it.

"Hey opponent."
"Yes friend?"
"Want to play a game?"
"Sure"

(Player 1 shows up with swarm, player 2 with yoda).
Player 1, "hmm, that's a bad matchup. Either I can change or you can, what do you think?"
Player 2, "Yeah, yoda vs swarm is no fun, let me run this other Sith squad I made, that should make a good match!"

And away you go.

Author:  AdmiralMotti89 [ Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting Close to making our list so give us your input!!!

Since this question keeps getting ignored, I'll put it here alone and phrase it a bit better:

-
-
-
Would the game be better off with Yoda/Doombot/AniStap killing a swarm squad by round 2 (save for maybe 1 commander or a support piece), or a viable fringe counter that protects a 6 square bubble (while having something else worthwhile)?
-
-
-

Here's an off the top of my head example

Ewok Leader

Fringe

Cost 14
HP 20
Def 13
Attack +4
Damage 10

Stealth
Swarm +1
Rope Trap: Whenever an enemy using Strafe Attack or Galloping Attack attacks an ally within 6 squares, that enemy must make a save of 11 or it is defeated (after attack is resolved).

CE: Followers Whose names Contain Ewok gain some kind of bonus.

Not too cheap, so it isn't an auto-include in every squad, fits an ewok character well (or at least has the potential, since I specified no CE), and provides those rabid for an ewok commander with one. I think it would be hard to actually make a piece like that that so many want (an ewok commander specifically I mean) to be meta shaking. Now for the cons:

Yobuck isn't invincible vs swarms anymore.

Oh wait that's not a con...

Author:  Ruhk [ Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting Close to making our list so give us your input!!!

hmm, interesting question. I like the idea of direct counters that are well thought out, or atleast, that turn out good (override vs satchel charge).

And if there was a 6 square 'protection' bubble on some random fringe piece.. there are certainly a lot of pieces that can be saddled with that responsibility. I already like the ewok dude you came up with.. but immediately defeated?, makes me cringe.

I'd rather see something like:

Laid Traps (enemies that move within 6 squares of this character must make a save of 11 for each squared moved within 6, on a fail, enemies must end their move)

it's not a true hate counter to Yobuck/Lancer, has other dimensions to it, and can be thrown on any piece. Price the piece at the 'awkward' price for support (ie 12-22), and you've got a viable counter, that's not a direct counter, and not cheap enough to be an auto-include for every squad.

Author:  NickName [ Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting Close to making our list so give us your input!!!

AdmiralMotti89 wrote:
Since this question keeps getting ignored, I'll put it here alone and phrase it a bit better:
-
Would the game be better off with Yoda/Doombot/AniStap killing a swarm squad by round 2 (save for maybe 1 commander or a support piece), or a viable fringe counter that protects a 6 square bubble (while having something else worthwhile)?
-
Not too cheap, so it isn't an auto-include in every squad, fits an ewok character well (or at least has the potential, since I specified no CE), and provides those rabid for an ewok commander with one. I think it would be hard to actually make a piece like that that so many want (an ewok commander specifically I mean) to be meta shaking. Now for the cons:

Yobuck isn't invincible vs swarms anymore.


The problem is that your "solution" doesn't only get used to protect swarms. It gets used by a metagame squad that is held in check by Kybuck/Lancer to break out as the frontrunner.

So yes, in an either/or situation of this example character or not the game is better off without it because you've not bothered to consider the effect on the metagame.

Author:  LoboStele [ Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting Close to making our list so give us your input!!!

Ruhk wrote:
Laid Traps (enemies that move within 6 squares of this character must make a save of 11 for each squared moved within 6, on a fail, enemies must end their move)


This is a MUCH better idea overall. 1) It doesn't counter JUST Yobuck/Lancer, as it would work against all sorts of squads, and would work along the line of Zuckuss, but at a wider range. 2) It doesn't cause an opponent to potentially lose a full HP, 51 point piece on single Save 11 roll. Maybe if it was a Save 6 roll, but with a Save 11, then people would either not play Yobuck/Lancer at all (in which case then, this SA wouldn't be needed as a counter), or, they would make sure to target the Ewok guy first, and not strafe/gallop anything until the Ewok was dead.

The ideas have merit, but the execution doesn't really work out the way you think it does.

Again, NTMTO is a good example. NTMTO was introduced to help counter Thrawn/Init control being too powerful in the game. Did it really change anything? No, A&E came out, and in 2007, people still ran B&B or Thrawn/Storm Commando squads with very little concern for Han Rogue. By the time Han GH came out, the MTB was around as well, and the two of them together helped push Thrawn to the background a bit, but honestly, not that much. The change to activating only 1 piece at the beginning of the round instead of 2 made a bigger difference. Then, once the high-activation squads weren't as viable anymore, the MTB has more or less disappeared, and Mith'thrawn came out, putting Init control back on the map somewhat. So, all said and done, NTMTO really never ended up doing anything!

Author:  AdmiralMotti89 [ Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting Close to making our list so give us your input!!!

billiv15 wrote:
Yep, and it was in the post he quoted. Instead of reading it carefully for what I was actually saying, he chose to use the usual "all you care about is meta" argument. It's stupid. There is nothing in my post that allows you to claim it was "all about meta" in anyway. You can only make it so by interpreting it that way, but there are a number of fairly clear markers denoting I'm talking about the wider game in a number of places.



Did I say you cared only about meta? Or did I (and yes, this is what did ), state that you were only ADRESSING meta in your post? I think any of those people who think all gamers users care about is competitive play would have a field day on your post as proof of their viewpoint as true.

So I have the wrong definition of Meta. Ok. I apologize. I take it to mean what’s played in the hardcore tournament scene. That might be the sticking point. Your post, from a reasonable interpretation based on standard expectations of American English, lent consideration almost entirely, if not totally, to the hardcore competitive scene (which I mistakenly(?) equated with meta.)

With statements like these below, how is anyone supposed to determine you are talking about the casual scene as well, except perhaps some sort of incidental mention?

billiv15 wrote:
-…fail in terms of meta analysis. Swarms were not generally competitive pre Lancer and Yodabuck.
-However, at the time Yoda and the Lancer came out, I think you need to look at what the meta was and how these interacted.
-…brought them back to the top of the competitive game without replacing the factions that were already there.
-For example, if you are running a Rebel swarm with the IC (one of the things people believe are dead in the current meta),…


For the last one, I took it to mean you did not agree that it was dead in the current meta, but did you mean that you agree? The way you phrased it is ambiguous. If you agree with it, “people” is kind of unclear to put there.

billiv15 wrote:
Can't have it both ways champ. You are making a "meta" issue here again, right after criticizing me for it lol.


You claim I don’t follow any of your points, but then say that I am committing some immense contradiction by trying to include your meta-heavy assessments, and then say that I’m supposed to leave meta out of it. Just what in the San Hill do you expect me to do? I would have to ignore almost that entire post of your to avoid addressing something that has to do with the meta issue that YOU brought up.

billiv15 wrote:
Swarms of many types are perfectly viable, and even when they lose to a well played lancer or Yobuck, they beat enough other things that taking a 40-60 odds bad matchup in 200 isn't that big of a deal - particularly when there are so many counter options already available.
You asked for a counter to yobuck - try zuckuss. Try Vader Scourge or some other reposte. Try disruptive. Try things with 30-40 or more hps for your swarm - so on and so forth.


Talk about ignoring points. Like I said before, it’s not too hard to get around zuckuss on a gallop, with the immense speed. If you mean shooting Yobuck before he even starts his turn, that’s a joke. With the doombot, it’s not too hard to keep Yobuck out of sight AND still move into position for a devastating strafe. You might have a point about Higher HP, however, generally I would say the higher HP, the higher the cost, and the less characters can actually be used. Vader Scourge doing 30 damage once per gallop doesn’t do much against the immense HP that I already mentioned. How hard is it to gallop outside the disruptive with the aforementioned immense speed?

Maybe what the real problem is my different definition of meta, and we should take a few steps back.

But to actually start with a swarm idea and make it able to counter Yobuck (whom I literally do see half or more of the time), you pretty much need to make it no longer a swarm, with all the high-cost, high-hp characters that need to be added just to survive past round 1.

Author:  AdmiralMotti89 [ Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting Close to making our list so give us your input!!!

NickName wrote:
AdmiralMotti89 wrote:
Since this question keeps getting ignored, I'll put it here alone and phrase it a bit better:
-
Would the game be better off with Yoda/Doombot/AniStap killing a swarm squad by round 2 (save for maybe 1 commander or a support piece), or a viable fringe counter that protects a 6 square bubble (while having something else worthwhile)?
-
Not too cheap, so it isn't an auto-include in every squad, fits an ewok character well (or at least has the potential, since I specified no CE), and provides those rabid for an ewok commander with one. I think it would be hard to actually make a piece like that that so many want (an ewok commander specifically I mean) to be meta shaking. Now for the cons:

Yobuck isn't invincible vs swarms anymore.


The problem is that your "solution" doesn't only get used to protect swarms. It gets used by a metagame squad that is held in check by Kybuck/Lancer to break out as the frontrunner.



Any actual example of that? I'm saying you don't have one, I just can't think of one myself. I have bothered to consider the effect, I jsut can't see what the actual negative effect would be, and maybe there isn't actually one.

Author:  fingersandteeth [ Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting Close to making our list so give us your input!!!

LoboStele wrote:
So, all said and done, NTMTO really never ended up doing anything!

Not true.

it expanded options but people complained so much about the strength of both Han Rogue and Old Man Han that they never bothered to try and make squads that utilized them. However, they were usable you just had to look elsewhere for power rather than using Han Scoundrel. I had several successful builds that used both NTMTO Hans. I still think Old Man Han is one of the best pieces on the NR particulally with his oddly named wife but its not something many people agree with usually because he isn't the uber piece people want in a 50 pointer. He's a combination of a 20 point tech and a 30 point shooter in one fig. Very well designed IMO.

The best example of a truely meta build that incorporated NTMTO was when people would run Old Man Han/Mara and an MTB. That worked for a while until people got wise to it (Gen Con 2008) and then Yobuck put a nail in its coffin.

NTMTO is a great example of an ability that has been well incorporated into the game. Requiring skill to built it in and, therefore, use. The issue is that people generally want plug and play pieces like Yobuck and this ewok trap idea that "hard" counters a strategy so people don't have to think in order to destroy a tactic.

Ditto goes for the complaint about swarm squads being nerfed. Try running a Nom bomb swarm or a Mon mothma swarm and see how successful the Yobuck squad is. The issue then is people can't run the swarm THEY want to run (usually aqualish/han St/ithorian swarms that have only ever been t2).

This issue won't go away, and any virtual set will consistently run into this problem because the set will inescapably alienate people who won't get exactly what they think they should out of the set and split from the community.

Author:  fingersandteeth [ Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting Close to making our list so give us your input!!!

AdmiralMotti89 wrote:
NickName wrote:
AdmiralMotti89 wrote:
Since this question keeps getting ignored, I'll put it here alone and phrase it a bit better:
-
Would the game be better off with Yoda/Doombot/AniStap killing a swarm squad by round 2 (save for maybe 1 commander or a support piece), or a viable fringe counter that protects a 6 square bubble (while having something else worthwhile)?
-
Not too cheap, so it isn't an auto-include in every squad, fits an ewok character well (or at least has the potential, since I specified no CE), and provides those rabid for an ewok commander with one. I think it would be hard to actually make a piece like that that so many want (an ewok commander specifically I mean) to be meta shaking. Now for the cons:

Yobuck isn't invincible vs swarms anymore.


The problem is that your "solution" doesn't only get used to protect swarms. It gets used by a metagame squad that is held in check by Kybuck/Lancer to break out as the frontrunner.



Any actual example of that? I'm saying you don't have one, I just can't think of one myself. I have bothered to consider the effect, I jsut can't see what the actual negative effect would be, and maybe there isn't actually one.


At a guess; using it to protect Mas/thrawn/ozzel - San/whorm - a bunker of swappers - the complete rebel command crew

Any top meta team has a selection of really fragile commanders that make it tick. The republics main power at the moment is being able to get to it and harm it. You take that away and you might as well put the republic in the same bin as the OR.

Really swarms, as i have said, have never been more than t2. Even before Yobuck, a decent shooter team picks them apart.

Author:  AdmiralMotti89 [ Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Getting Close to making our list so give us your input!!!

Ruhk wrote:
Laid Traps (enemies that move within 6 squares of this character must make a save of 11 for each squared moved within 6, on a fail, enemies must end their move)


I would think that that is more abusive than what I posted. Maybe I'm interpreting it incorrectly, but it looks like for a melee character that starts outside of 6 would have to make 5 saves of 11 to move in to make an attack. It's defeinitely a cool alternative, but the more you take it away from a specific ability, the more it counters things that need not be countered.

Maybe a mix?

Rope Traps:
Whenever an ally within 6 squares of this character is attacked by an enemy within 6 squares of this character, that enemy must make a save of 11 or immediately end its move.

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