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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:33 pm 
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Consider that to get up to the 60%, you have to spend an extra 58 or 69 points. Not exactly going to burn up 100 point format. In a faction without much Droid support (you can only get up to 40% in Rebels). You could keep him back to spawn your Droids, but that will leave your other guys 55 pts short of support. If you can make the rolls, it might offset it a bit, but it will vary depending on what you are facing. If Kazden comes out, he won't last very long at all. A bit crazy in kill em all, but Reserves in general are stronger in that format anyway.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:59 pm 
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NickName wrote:
Very few situations results in LOS to start round 2. (Note this increases the odds of reserves overall so it's a point in your favor so to speak.) So I think this is more typical:

Round 1 - no Recon - 20% chance of reserves.
(Both squads advance 12 and hide)
Round 2 - no Recon - 20% chance of reserves.
(Kaz squad rushes if necessary to get LOS in final acts)
Round 3 - Recon - 60% chance of reserves
(Full engagement)
Round 4 - Recon but 50/50 chance one of your augmenters is dead now - 50% chance of reserves
Round 5 - Recon but assume one of your augmenters is dead and 50/50 another is gone - 30% chance of reserves


I'd agree except that the point about wanting to rush this squad is valid... so I presumed they would. On a significant percentage of maps, this will give LOS on Turn 2. Either way, my point remains.

As for DCI, you all seem to assume that the only solution is bringing in low defense droids. As I believe others have suggested, probably my first choice is going to be either a DT Phase II with BDO, or even a DT Phase III. DT3 is actually quite survivable... 80 HP, 17 base D doesn't exactly suck. I simply don't agree that you can assume that this will actually hurt rather than help. I'd go even further to suggest that you're ignoring the subtle advantages... such as being able to select a missile shooter when your opponent least expects it... or being able to add cunning attackers when you win initiative with a reinforcement roll... and keep in mind on some maps, your placement may well have visibility to key foes from where it magically appears.

Anyway... I'm not saying he's the next Thrawn... but I am saying that the more analysis I do, the more he appears pretty significantly undercosted (or, overpowered in other areas... if he himself was weaker it would also fix the problem).

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:01 pm 
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I don't see how Kazden himself could be much weaker. A JWM outclasses him.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:06 pm 
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Sithborg wrote:
I don't see how Kazden himself could be much weaker. A JWM outclasses him.


At least he has deflect and block.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:18 pm 
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I "rush" (move my full 12 with the majority of my squad) on round 1 in nearly every game on every map and rarely up in LOS at the start of Round 2 particularly against a low activation squad like a Kaz-pimp squad will be. YMMV I guess. <shrug>

It should be pretty interesting playing and playing against Kaz. I think we're all as much on the same page as we can be without knowing the whole set and now it's just a matter of interpretation until the games start being played rather than discussed. I think BGD/BDO will be the go-to combo for the first reserves assuming you won't be instantly nailed with area effect that kills the BDO. Then Crab in general, or Dark Trooper if you have a sweet missile shot available.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:21 pm 
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Grambo wrote:
Anyway... I'm not saying he's the next Thrawn... but I am saying that the more analysis I do, the more he appears pretty significantly undercosted (or, overpowered in other areas... if he himself was weaker it would also fix the problem).


Ok Grambo, you are exclusively focusing on this one figure now. I suggest a few test games before we make any claims.

And I will say this, KP is clearly a figure that will require a lot of skill and game knowledge to play successfully. There is no way a new player or poor player will pick this guy up and win games. It will take someone who has carefully studied their droid options (over 200 at this point) and knows exactly which one to employ at the right time.

Even if the figure is as good as you fear it might be (and I have my doubts about that) it will absolutely require a very solid player to run him and win, let alone dominate anyone. Of that you must admit.

And that to me, is the definition of a well designed figure. The best players should be able to outplay the lesser players with the same figures. That is the biggest complaint I have had about boba BH in fact - he requires little thought to run. I also love reinforcements for that same reason. Often, the people who think Lobot sucks fail to understand how to choose reinforcements (not all, I am aware - so no sniping me Emr as I am not talking about you in this case).

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:00 pm 
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Actually, Billiv, I'm only focusing on KP because he is the one I feel is most "out of range"... and because there is pretty easy math available. I can do a similar analysis of Vader U if you wish, but I'm not sure what the point would be given that the easy math is already being casually set aside with "well, they'll just be cheap DCI points" and the like.

I agree that testing is a fine idea... and I'd be more than happy to do so.

I also agree that KP will require some thought to play, unlike Boba BH (who I have stopped arguing about, but still strongly feel needs a "counter" of some form). However, I'd also observe that KP has the potential to be JUST as gamebreaking as Boba BH with "luck"...

For example... using my earlier math... what about the 1/8 chance that my opponent will get 90 points of droids in three turns of play? I can be a good player facing a novice, and 90 extra points of droids is going to be VERY hard to overcome.

Worse yet, what if my opponent does NOT totally optimize for him... and actually takes him as part of a regular Separatist shooty-squad? I shudder to think of what happens when a "lucky player" spits out extra Dark Troopers who then Grevious can make into machines-of-death... or three extra Crab Droids on an army built to make those work.

Look, you're right... it isn't an automatic end of the world... but I do think that the math is the math. Will KP be beatable? You bet... but so is Boba. However, I do think that, like Boba, he's potentially game-breaking when he works... and like Boba, nothing on earth can save you if your opponent is lucky... and unlike most other squads, that luck isn't crazy "I rolled 4 20s in a row" luck... I'm talking very rudimentary good fortune.

Anyway, as you say... we'll see... but the designer in me says that how it plays when you and I test it matters only marginally... something can be off without having it leap to the forefront. Keep in mind that it took folks a good six months when Magic first came out to realize they could make 1-turn kill decks quite readily... which then spawned a host of changes. This isn't that, I know... but I do think that, the more I look at KP, the more I become convinced he's simply "off".

For what it is worth... I will enjoy trying to play with him... because one thing I can be certain of is that he won't work for me ;)

Oh, and one final note... I'm SOOOOOO glad that Homing Droids are 32 points and not 30. Can you imagine if you could suddenly add an accurate shooter?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:14 pm 
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If you are putting him in a Sep squad, then you are ignoring factions, and thus are totally more abusive combos out there.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:14 pm 
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Grambo wrote:
Worse yet, what if my opponent does NOT totally optimize for him... and actually takes him as part of a regular Separatist shooty-squad? I shudder to think of what happens when a "lucky player" spits out extra Dark Troopers who then Grevious can make into machines-of-death... or three extra Crab Droids on an army built to make those work.


Luckily they didnt make him a Sep :) So no worries about this. I think about the best you can do is start with an X1 and the fringe support options. Still a decent combo, but certainly not as game breaking as a Sep version might have been.

I will also add, I am pretty good at finding the best most abusable combos as I have an analytical mind and my first thoughts are always "How can I abuse this guy?" I think our testing might be more useful than you think because of it.

Vader is easy to show his weaknesses, so its wise for you to focus on someone else. He really is right in line with Vader Cots and IC without the cool CEs, but better force powers. Sure, he might be a few points cheaper, but we also knew that was coming. It remains to be seen how much of a boost over range melee are really getting (Some like Emr refuse to agree to it, until he sees it), I am more inclined to believe what Rob told us he was doing. I dont think Rob has ever misled us in the past in any significant way, so I go with the history.

Lets have some fun with KP, get on Vassal when you can.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:15 pm 
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Grambo wrote:
Worse yet, what if my opponent does NOT totally optimize for him... and actually takes him as part of a regular Separatist shooty-squad? I shudder to think of what happens when a "lucky player" spits out extra Dark Troopers who then Grevious can make into machines-of-death... or three extra Crab Droids on an army built to make those work.


I'm confused. How could your opponent use KP with a Separatist squad, apart from a fun game? KP should never be in a DCI squad with General Grievous.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:28 am 
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Grambo wrote:
As for DCI, you all seem to assume that the only solution is bringing in low defense droids. As I believe others have suggested, probably my first choice is going to be either a DT Phase II with BDO, or even a DT Phase III. DT3 is actually quite survivable... 80 HP, 17 base D doesn't exactly suck. I simply don't agree that you can assume that this will actually hurt rather than help. I'd go even further to suggest that you're ignoring the subtle advantages... such as being able to select a missile shooter when your opponent least expects it... or being able to add cunning attackers when you win initiative with a reinforcement roll... and keep in mind on some maps, your placement may well have visibility to key foes from where it magically appears.


I wasn't saying that the only solution was to bring in low defense Droids (like regular BDs, lol). I was simply pointing out that there are no Droids at all have Defenses higher than Kazdan or other Jedi. Kazdan is actually on the low side of Defenses for Jedi, but he does still have Block and Deflect. This means, it takes about half as much time to kill a Crab Droid, BGD, or Dark Trooper, than it would to kill Kazdan himself.

Or....if you want to look at it a different way. Assume Kazdan costs only 25 points. That makes him about the same cost as a JWM. Which would you rather try to kill, a JWM or a DTPhIII? Definitely the Dark Trooper. WAY easier to kill since it has no defensive capabilities.

So, I know that there are some fairly powerful Droids that Kazdan can bring in. My point was simply that it doesn't matter what you bring in, it will be easier to kill than going after Kazdan himself.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:29 am 
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Don't disagree that it is easier to kill Kaz' droids than Kaz himself... but then again, that's rather the point of why I think he is undercosted, as he is NOT vulnerable... he's a solid guy with decent HP, both block and defend, and at least reasonable D.

And ignore me on the Sep comment, for some odd reason I had it in my head he was fringe (thank God he's not). It helps... but the math still says he's too cheap... and has the same potential to make a game more luck-determinate than usual as Boba BH.

Honestly, I do love the idea of the piece... just think he's too good for his price tag, even if only available to Republic/Rebel. But, as we've both agreed, I guess we'll see :)

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:36 am 
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Actually, it depends on who is attacking Kazden. Jedi Hunters will have an easier time killing Kazden than those without. Ion Gun will obviously have to attack the droids.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:46 am 
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I really like Kazden. He is powerful, but because it is based on chance he may or may not be reliable enough to run in a tourney scene.

He looks to be REALLY fun on paper for casual games.

I like the design - he makes every decision important. For example, do I hide him and hope lucky rolls (even assisted with recon etc) and gather a droid army, or do I use him as an overcosted beatstick who suddenly can pop out a beefy buddy.

If I'm against him, and he rolls droids, do I take out the easier and more dangerous droids (as most droids are high damage, low defense) or do I focus on Kazden to prevent even more droids?

I don't think he's overcosted, but at the same time I am absolutely certain he is not undercosted. Because his ability is so chancy, I can't say he's broken, but at the same time, he very well could be on certain occasions. I mean, I'd hate to rely on him in a tourny, as he's bound to be 30 points overcosted at least once. On the other hand, I'd hate to play against him and have 60-90 points of supported droids appear before the first major combat starts.

I really hope some sort of Huge Droid is released that costs under 30 points. Then I could play with huges even on maps that are horrid for them :)


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:02 pm 
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I agree with most of that Solodan... but I do still think he's undercosted. By himself, ignoring the reinforcements, he's comparable to a JWM (approximately). So I'm paying 25 points for well more than that in droids, and the flexibility of bringing them in in the middle of the fray, AND tailoring them to the situation. Opponent grouped up? Missiles. Opponent annoying with accurate? Bodyguard. No area damage and need activations? Pump out a herd of gumbies. Got initiative? Toss out a Security, maybe a SBD to combine, and a Medical Droid to start healing Kaz and create yet more annoying havoc (Medical Droids are too annoying to let live long).

They key here is his intangibles. Combine those with the raw math, and he's just too damn cheap (or too good, your pick). Yes, he's beatable... yes, he's not going to dominate tourneys because luck WILL turn on you... but even an average player will be able to absolutely crush a skilled player if they get a few lucky rolls on init (and again, those aren't 5% rolls, we're talking 20-50% rolls). Remember, 17% of the time you'll flip heads three times in a row... and if you do... well... game over.

I love him too... but I ask myself this... would I consider playing him if he cost 65-70? The answer is still "yes". Would he be a potentially serious tourney piece at that cost? Not likely... but he isn't now... all he is now is a spoiler piece... and he's going to be VERY good as that right now.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:06 pm 
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I have gotten 3 Reserves in a game once. It helped, sure, but it was hardly game turning, I believe.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:57 pm 
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2 crabs and a BDO is a game changing experience I believe :)

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:21 pm 
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punxnbutter wrote:
2 crabs and a BDO is a game changing experience I believe :)
Yeah crabs will do that to ya....so i have heard.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:50 pm 
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Sithborg wrote:
I have gotten 3 Reserves in a game once. It helped, sure, but it was hardly game turning, I believe.


So you're saying adding 90 points of troops in a 200 point battle wasn't a game-changing situation? Well... then... don't know what to tell ya. I can't fathom how that could be...

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:35 pm 
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Grambo wrote:
Sithborg wrote:
I have gotten 3 Reserves in a game once. It helped, sure, but it was hardly game turning, I believe.


So you're saying adding 90 points of troops in a 200 point battle wasn't a game-changing situation? Well... then... don't know what to tell ya. I can't fathom how that could be...


I believe he means either Fringe, Republic or Sep at only 20 each. That extra 10 points gets you so much more though. The difference between 2 SBD's and a Dark Trooper Phase III/BD is huge though.

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