There are certain things about the JWM that have been admitted were not intended, and yes, he does appear to be a mistake. However, in the grand scheme of things, by the time of Universe, Melee pieces were vastly outpowered in the game. I was brand new to SWM about 2 months before COTF, and even I noticed that the JWM and Vader JH were pretty much the only Melee pieces that were worth running if you really wanted to win. None of the Rebel Luke's that were Melee were worth it. Grievous JH sucked. Even without the JWM, the CS Jedi paled in comparison to the Empire in general, and ESPECIALLY to the Sep droids. I LOVED playing Separatists when I first got into the game, and a well built droid squad chewed through any Jedi without Deflect VERY quickly.

So....in the grand scheme of things, Melee in general (except for a few note-worthy pieces) have been largely under-powered for a long time now. And for the health of the game, it's better in the long run to create new pieces that are better balanced, then to try and correct old pieces, or re-cost them. Do you realize how frustrating it would be for someone to show up at a Tournament with a squad, and then be told "Oh, your squad is 5 points over the build total" because they didn't know a character had been re-costed? It's silly, and annoying. And when they're making new sets anyways, they can just make new versions of those characters, with new/different abilities, and make them more appropriately competitive when compared to the ranged characters.

It's not an excuse that the JWM set a new bar. It's a realization that the JWM was the first of a line of Melee pieces that can actually hold their own against similarly powered ranged pieces. The JWM is like the 'Anakin Skywalker' of SWM. He has a dark side, and maybe a few flaws, but ultimately, he's helping to bring balance.

And overall, I think Maris Brood is the ONLY piece we've seen so far that actually does out-class any older pieces. Sure Vader and his Apprentice are powerful pieces and have some nasty new abilities, but they are VERY different than any older pieces, and they certainly have their downfalls as well. Everybody can cry power-creep and such all they want right now, but we'll all find ways to beat these new pieces just as we have with everything else up until now (Boba, LV, B&B JH, San, JWMs, etc.).



LOL, I suppose. Though one tint causes people to be optimistic about the game, and hope that Rob will continue to keep all the older sets in mind (which he seems to have done so far). The other tint causes people to constantly complain about every little thing.

Say huh? Brood is the ONLY fig that has outclassed any piece from another set, and as i said Komari sucked to begin with. No other figures have been outdated by what we have seen so far. The other figs are barely competitively playable. No decent figs have been lowered on the playablity list by what we have seen so far.

Paratus, Mon Cal Medic, Noble? What exactly are they better than?

Even the Uggernaut seems fairly average to me. It'll have some uses with a bunch of commanders, but it doesn't jump out as anything special on its own.

That's about half the previews.

Maris is clearly better than Vosa, but Vosa was bad to begin with and Maris is perhaps on par with JWMs, not exclipsing them. Same with Vader and his Apprentice, they might compete with JWMs, but aren't clearly better.

Vader is really the only one at the moment I see having a signficant impact on the top tier because his Throw will be deadly several popular support characters. (And they needed a bit of balance.) Vader is like Boba BH, a very consistant way to deal 40 damage in a variety of circumstances and with good survivability (23 Def with DA vs Mobile/Evade)

"Vader is really the only one at the moment I see having a signficant impact on the top tier because his Throw will be deadly several popular support characters. (And they needed a bit of balance.) Vader is like Boba BH, a very consistant way to deal 40 damage in a variety of circumstances and with good survivability (23 Def with DA vs Mobile/Evade)"

Oh god.....this just game me an idea of running the new vader with Boba, BH. You have a clear shot at disintegration because if he tries to BG then you use vader to dispatch the BG and then disintegrate with Boba....*shudders*

The only way you can be suprised by the "power creep" is if you don't play any other WOTC games. Wizards is a business. They have to make money and there focus is going to be on making a lot of it and whatever works best for them is what they are going to choose. I realize this sounds negative, but I am not trying to bash Wizards. I am just being realistic. I have been playing Magic since 1996 and there isn't anything happening in SWM's that I haven't already seen happen there. I have seen Wizards open stores and hire a lot of employees and then have to close them and fire people because it didn't work out the way they thought. SWM's is in a special place right now where you can still play with all the sets in tourneys and I beleive the creators spend a lot of time thinking about the impact figs have on the tourney scene as well as casual play. Eventually, the game will have enough depth the focus will change and you won't be able to play figs from older sets in the tourneys and they will spend most of their time focusing in set development in those new tourny environments. This means old figures are going to be obsoleted and new super figs will counter each other and if you are a collector than yes, you will have a lot of worthless crap laying around. I personally like this approach a lot better than when they just banned certain cards in Magic. They even released a set and then had to ban cards right away and started a program where they would buy your old Rare in exhange for a booster. Now that is messed up. Wizards hates it when everyone plays the same squad or "deck" in the tourneys and I think they have learned a lot because in the old days they would have just banned Thrawn to force people to come up with new stuff. Keep in mind Wizards doesn't have a lot of incentive to make one fig for you to put in an old squad to make it better. They make a lot more money if they come up with new squads people will want to make with entirely new pieces.

I disagree... on a few counts.

First, to answer about how these other figures are better...

Noble is the best gambit collector and door opener (short of override) yet. I thing we've yet to see all the possibilities with him regarding targeting. Hard not to see him as "better".

Medic is far from gamebreaking, agreed. However, it is functionally better than the previous identical figure. Higher defense, lower cost, no disadvantages.

Uggernaut is harder to prove my point on, but I will observe that twin attack gives him tremendous firepower potential. Give him support from the right guys (Veers leaps to mind) and his potential is... astounding, even at his somewhat steep pricetag. Were he a 30-damage hitter without twin, he'd be actually much more sane.

Then we look at Vader... who when compared with all the other "similar" pieces is not only special in that he has this amazing ranged attack, but he also has FR, amazing defense, AND is cheaper. When I bring this up, I"m told "oh, melee is being revamped". When I question the wisdom of revamping melee in this fashion (obsoleting most of the old melee) I'm told how brilliant Rob is, and that melee just plain sucked before.

Look, we all know JWMs are very VERY good for their pricetag. However, if they were uniques (as they were supposed to be), they'd be far less an issue. How hard is that to fix? It isn't. We all know Boba is broken... but the answer, in my opinion, isn't to simply upgrade everything else... it is to specifically counter the broken components (for instance, what if there was something that could shut off disintegration, or give you a save against it...)

Anyway, as stated, we'll just see how it goes... the die is already cast... now we can but wait to see where it lands. Like most of you, I've already ordered my cases. The question for me is simply how many of the $1000 worth of figures I have now will soon be relegated to my shelves.

Well, let's see....

First of all, Boba BH is not Broken. In fact, I beat him several times at GenCon. I've beat Boba with a myriad of figures. It's quite funny to watch your opponent's face when he realizes that you just won Initiative, and have two Storm Commandos based against Boba. Bye-bye full HP Boba. IMO, there are NO broken figures in the game right now. Sure, there are some that are tougher to beat than others, but they can all be beat. I beat Boba BH on a pretty regular basis now. It's a just a matter of learning how to beat him.

The same goes for the JWM or any new piece we've seen so far. They are perfectly beatable as they are. No changes necessary. Just takes practice. The game wouldn't be as interesting if there weren't at least a few pieces out there that were marginally stronger than the rest.

OK then.....the Noble....yeah, sure it's a great Gambit collector and Door opener....but it isn't good for ANYTHING else. You'll put 5 points in your squad just to have something that can collect easy gambit. And then you'll kick yourself when I find the one lane of fire that gives me LOS to the Noble and nothing else. Bye-bye lousy Defense, 10 HP, Noble.

The Medic? OK, so it's marginally better than the Polis Massa Medic, but....nobody ever played those anyways. Besides, it's in a different faction, and bridging faction lines brings all sorts of other problems into play. You can't really compare the two as they both benefit and are hindered by totally different situations since they are in separate factions. Honestly, I don't see the Mon Cal Medic getting much more play than the Polis Massa anyways, so I really don't understand why it matters.

The Uggernaught? Sure, it's a decent piece, and people will build things like Bill's squad in the other thread that may utilize it well. But honestly, you're still paying a hefty price tag for it. It's Huge, so mobility is a factor, and it's Rigid, which means...good luck getting off near as many Furious Assaults as you'd like. I'd bet people will get shots on 2 targets at most, 90% of the time.

Vader is actually a prime example of something that's beatable. Sure he has 23 Def and DA. But both JH and LV are pretty similar in that regard. Vader Unleashed will have to spend nearly all his FPs for that one Lightsaber Throw. And if you play correctly against him, he should never have an opportunity to hit more than 1 person with it.

Honestly, new pieces are not about obsoleting old pieces. It's about obsoleting old play-styles. Sure, in some situations it may cause certain pieces to be less playable (like Vader Unleashed vs. CS Padme), but that also happens with the general shift in the meta from set-to-set. It's not necessarily that one piece is more powerful than the older ones. It's just different.

The noble - MY GOD! A figure with no attack and no damage is power creep!?!? Also there are tons of tricks that will take them out. That and i never let gambit worry me. I always go for the outright kill.

The medic is cheaper, but its only rebel, so how does it repalce anything? I dont run the medic in anything other than Exar squads, and guess what - i cant use the medic. How many rebel squads do you see with a medic anyway?

The uggernaught is very slow and fragile. Power shooters and disruptive will hose them badly!

You say these pieces are powercreep......what are they making obsolete?

You say Vader (best piece we have seen so far) is powercreep...How has he replaced Jedi Hunter? Lord Vader? CotF Vader? Imperial Comander? He doesn't.

Melee has been sorely under powered for several sets, so yes they are being recosted. It HAS to happen. Otherwise they will be made obsolete by shooters and all games will be one sided. Besides, dont underestimate Robs ability and intent to go back and help older figs to make them playable again.

You say Boba is broken. This speaks more volumes than you can know. Boba is not broken in any way, shape or form.

Ah, there are those who think he is, there are those who do not think he is. Who is right, who is wrong? I am betting both sides think they are right. I am further betting that both sides can not possibly accept that they are wrong on this particular issue.

It is only the big D with me that makes Boba just plain wrong for the game. With gotals, the big D had a figure, it was a crappy one, but if you wanted a luck squad, you could get it. With Boba, there is no downside, most often Boba is still hitting (whoever he wishes with accurate), and sometimes he is insta-killing. I am guessing most people would be okay with Boba if he just did not have that ability.

I agree with this totally. Up Boba, enforcer and give him disintegration then both would be awesome. Do you use a subpar attack or a big missile. They shouldnt have given it the the best shooter in the game. Boba sucks, but i dont call him broken because barring the disintegration, he can be dealt with. Besides all it would take is to rework disintegration and he is back to just good.

But a good deal of the time the people that are crying about him being broken are the ones that cannot deal with him.

I agree the Vader is good. I said as much. But so is Vader IC at roughly the same price. And so are Vader JH and LV at a 50% premium. So all of the Vader's that were good before are still good even with a new Vader out there. So I don't see the Vader "obsoleting" anything--he's just adding another option.



Rob will be the first to say he isn't brilliant, isn't perfect, and he's made design errors. Melee pieces have been overcosted for most of the lifespan of the game. During RS Dynamic Duo was pretty good. After that they've pretty much completely relied on gimmicks (Tow, Thrawn) to be competive until the advent of the JWM (which perhaps is a happy accident in retrospect even though I agree in the context of the game at the instant he was released he was a bit out of the 10% margin of error I consider typical of costing.)



What, making him Unique? That's not a viable solution. How about all the players who've already collected multiples? What about the fact he's in an Uncommon slot where a Unique shouldn't be when buying CotF boosters. Is the fact that a melee Jedi is actually good more of a problem than those issues created by this "fix"? Is it really better to have the JWM and your old CS/RotS Jedi be "unplayable" rather than just your CS/RotS Jedi? Because nerfing the JWM may shift the power curve some, but it won't be enough to make those way overpriced characters see any playing time in competetive squads.



We don't all know that. I'd guess you'd be hardpressed to get a majority holding that opinion just within the posters of this thread. Boba is a solid way to get a consistant 40 damage a round. And then sometimes he gets incredibly lucky and hits that Disintegrate at just the right time. Lobo covered this pretty well--so I'll only add that I've seen him go down to a pair of Wookiee Freedom Fighters too because Boba takes 4 rounds to finish them off.

Actually, Sithdragon made a great point there. If they had just left Boba BH without Disintegration, and then given it to Boba Enforcer instead (with perhaps, a few more points added to him) it would be a lot better balanced, IMO. But....such is how it is. Still though, I contend that anyone who considers Boba 'Broken' just needs more practice against him.

IMO, the lucky 'Big D' is no worse than being unlucky in that one crucial, final, initiative roll at the end of the game that decides the whole thing. For instance, my semi-final game at GenCon against DrDivot. Neither of us rolled a Disintegration. But at the end of the game, it came down to one lousy roll on my part, and then the final Iniative. Whoever one Init had a significant chance at winning the game (barring rolling 1's on attacks, etc.). If one of us had rolled a Disintegration earlier in the game, it might've just meant that the final initiative wasn't as important. Most games come down to one important roll, one way or another.

Sith... that is exactly the point... Boba IS broken because he's the best shooter in the game anyway AND he gets the ability to flat out win the game for you by pure luck. He can be beaten... ANYTHING can be beaten... that doesn't change the fact that he's statistically an anomaly.

And yes, Nickname, I realize that Boba can be taken down by a pair of WFFs (though I believe the math says he'll still win more often than not in that situation)... but at the same token Boba is utterly game changing, as he gives you a 9.75% of killing anything he shoots at, regardless of other considerations (huges notwithstanding, obviously). Folks keep saying "he can get incredibly lucky"... given that an average 200 point game is 5 turns long, you have about a 40% chance that Boba will disintegrate someone during that. Statistically, this means that about one game in five he'll annihilate someone with more than half his health left... usually creating a game-changing situation.

Look, I don't want to turn this into an argument over how broken Boba is... and I'm not trying to say Rob is an idiot. I'm just concerned that we're seeing what appears, at least to my math-oriented eyes, a shift that may invalidate not only combos (which is fine), but plenty of my previous models.

You're right... CEs will still be CEs... so lots of Vaders will still see use. However, ones like basic 47 point Vader will be pointless now, which wasn't necessarily true before.

I realize the new things have their weaknesses... I'm not saying they don't. What I am saying, and feel still no one has shown any evidence to the contrary (everyone seems interested instead in telling me either that I'm wrong without any legitimate details about why... or that powercreep is inevitable and/or good and I should be happy about), is that all the pieces so far replace previous pieces or are simply flat better than previous similar pieces from various factions... so much so that I feel that we may see those pieces poof from play for the most part (even more than many of them already have).

Fair enough--Boba tangent dropped with nothing more than I think your numbers don't consider some important variables (and that crits in general are oftent equally game-changing regardless of the Disintegration.)



How are they "invalidated"?

Let's use your Vader example. This character is not good enough to use in top tier competetive games today.

This character can be used effectively in modestly competetive games and win, particularly in conjunction with Emperor Palpatine.

The day after FU is released, that doesn't change. Vader U may be a better option, but a subpar figure remains subpar. Would changing the cost of Vader U really change anything about that? Not really. So now the whole concept of a mid-costed Vader follower cannot be implimented at all just because Vader is not really worth 47 points in a highly competetive environment? Or it can only be implimented if it's priced so it's also subpar?

Here's the same question I asked EMR131 about the Uggernaut--what price do you put in Vader U that makes him both "playable" and not "powercreep" so that he doesn't "invalidate" other figures?

I don't think Vader U invalidates Vader at all. I think Vader was not good to start with and every set will have figures that are good to start with, and those that are not, and those that change from one to the other based on future combos integrated into the game.

But what's to say that Boba's magic roll of a 20 won't be on something with 10 HP left? Or on an Ugnaught? Or against a Huge. Or against a piece that technically wasn't a legal target (then the roll is invalidated and should be reversed). There are a TON of other factors. If Boba is 'broken' simply because he can win with a roll of 20, then why don't we hear more people fussing about Emperor Palpatine's Betrayal? What about Thrawn's Master Tactician weakness when you roll a 1? That can effectively lose a game for a Thrawn player? But we don't hear about those ones. There are TONS of ways for games to be lost on a single die roll. It's simply because Boba is a very good piece otherwise, and a lot of people like to play him. Sure, I've lost my fair share of games due to an annoying disintegration. But I've beat opponents time after time after time without (GenCon was the first time I EVER Disintegrated anything with more than 10 HP left, and in only one game did actually make a difference).

Granted, this discussion is about new pieces, and in that vein, both Vader and the Apprentice could effectively 'win' a game on a poor initiative roll. Lose init...WHAM. At this point, I'm honestly more scared of either Vader or the Apprentice than Boba.



I think this is a poor example, as are most of the ones used in the 'powercreep' discussions. That Vader rarely sees play anyways. Actually, I don't think I can remember anyone ever playing that Vader at either of the two LGS in my town. NickName already pointed out exactly what I would say about that Vader otherwise.

And that's the crux of the matter though. Most of the pieces people think will be 'unplayable' because of new pieces, generally weren't playable at the competitive level before anyways. They were only in the game for casual play. It's just how the game shifts. Heck, I had a blast playing with Jacen and Jaina when COTF first came out. But once BHs came around, they are close to useless competitively (granted, they were borderline competitive before, but it's even harder now unless you use Mara). Do I think they've been 'powercreeped'? No, I just know the game has shifted, and their particular set of abilities doesn't give them the best advantages right now. Perhaps in 6 months or a year, they'll be back.

Valid points and questions. My opinion is that Vader U simply is undercosted in comparison. He is very cheap for his capabilities with FR. If he didn't have FR, and had instead enough force for one big whack... or if he was more expensive by 5-7 points... I'd have little concern.

As for your comment that we will always have figures that are good to start, and some that are not... I concur. What I have not seen yet is the latter half in this set. If they are out there, great... then I'll be happy as can be. However, with every preview we're seeing figures that are an improvement over previous incarnations... universally. If that is indeed an exception, then I have no beef at all.

We probably should take this argument offline, as it really is a separate discussion. Boba's twin-attack and the fact that YOU control what you shoot at is why he is different.


On this we agree... rather, this is kinda my point.



Actually, you're rather supporting my argument there. I'll restate what I said to Nick... IF these figures being shown are expected to be more powerful pieces... groovy, no complaint. If, however, they are the tip of the iceberg, then I am concerned. Put another way, if Vader and the Apprentice (and Revan) are considered "top notch" from the FU set, then I've no complaint at all. If, however, they are average? Then I am worried.

As for Mr. 47 point Darth... while I agree he isn't tourney competitive, the statement Nickname makes really defines my thoughts. Vader U simply, in all ways, becomes a better option. There were squads previously where I would take Vader 47. I've done so and won, in fact. However, I will never likely take Vader 47 again after seeing Vader U. To me, THIS is the definition of "invalidated".

Well, I think that's pretty much the point I have tried to make in every single place that someone has started bringing up the 'powercreep' comments. We have seen a total of 11 pieces (I think I counted right) of the entire set. And of course, the previews are going to show the best-of-the-best out of the set. You don't drum up excitement about the set by previewing Nikto Soldiers. Heck, Rob previewed Luke COTF for us at Christmas last year. It's mostly just marketing. I am positive that there will be some pieces in the set to offset the 'uber' ones. But we likely won't see those in previews.

I would absolutely love for this to be how it plays out... as I've said all along, I'm just "worried". If this isn't the tip of the iceberg, then I'm a happy guy who will be nothing but thrilled with the set, believe me.

Fair enough. I think there will be plenty in the set for people to complain about being "terrible" and "useless" instead of powercreep. Equal opportunity for your chosen gripe!

I still wonder about your "universal" comment. Paratus, really?

Medic? Barring 2-1B being some sort of healer commander, I'm still taking a Medical Droid for the extra HP and Avoid Defeat for just a couple points more.

And the Noble, I think is overrated (but interesting.) It's anything but a "sure thing" support in squads the way something like, say, Mas Amedda or R2 often is. In many squads having an attacker will be more valuable. I think the Noble will have a niche, but it won't come close to the Ugo, or Gran, or a 5 point shooters. (Time will tell if there's a great combo here--there certainly is potential for a San Hill type sleeper but saying any new power is powercreep just because it's possibly useful is a stretch to me.)