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So is there power creep?
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 Post subject: Power Creep, and what it doesn't effect
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:08 pm 
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Someone on one of the other threads mentioned somthing that the new Vader is an example of power creep, and that got me thinking. This is not to bash anyone, just to discuss if this is happening, and which miniatures it effects.


So what exactly is power creep? It is the theory that as a game continues to develop, the older pieces are outdated because the new ones are much better, and have less of a cost.

To my main point: Is this happening in SWM? Mabe. I believe that everything from shooters to jedi are just being adjusted to where they should have been in the first place.

Where I don't think it is happening is with melee attackers, especailly jedi/sith, although there are some exceptions, like the JWM and the aqualish assasin, both are great for their costs. They are definetly a lot better than say Saesee Tiin and the ithorian scout. I still use Saesee Tiin, because I like stealth/evade jedi squads. He has synergy with Quinlan, Infiltrator, the bith black sun vigo, and gen. windu so he's actually gotten better with time. Most older jedi have been outdated, other older jedi are use more frequently. The game is being corrected and other force users are going to be cheaper to compensate for melee attack, no doubt a jedi's biggest weakness. The some of the newer jedi/sith are better than the original ones made, but some of them just weren't really ever good. But perhaps the orginal jedi in RS and CS just aren't good representations of how good jedi should have been. Mabe now this is being corrected in recent sets. I think from Universe onward, the've gotten better and better. Not to say some of the jedi from RS onward to ROTS weren't good. I still use some of them, like Saesee Tiin, Yoda ( if I had him, either version ) Anakin, SA, obi-wan, jedi master, and many others. The game is getting better, and the jedi now represent what they should have been from the beginging, not just evolving into somthing more powerful for a less of a cost.


With shooters: I believe so. Not all, but some are big examples of power creep. Look at the storm commando compared to the ARC trooper. The ARC trooper is just terrible in comparison, and costs 1 point less. But again, this may just be WOTC's attempt to fix the game to units in the game better, therefore making the game more competative, intresting, and better. Some would claim that Boba, BH is a huge example of power creep. He is very good, but without a disentagration hit, he only can throw down 40 damage each round, and looses all defensive abilties if you rush him with jedi. Most competative jedi around the point range of Boba, BH can put out more damage, more faster ( by themselves or with help ), and have better defensive abilties. Aurra from CS is considered to still undercosted. This is a fluke by WOTC, I believe. She was still made in the early days of the game, so her cost was set by designers that didn't know that she was too cheap, or her stats were too good. But nowadays, she isn't such a big deal. I think people have gotten over her. I hope so anyway, because she won't be banned ever, and I hate to hear complaning.

So what do you think? Am I wrong and are the costs just going down while power goes up? Am I right? Feel free to discuss.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:16 pm 
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Voted for the first option.

It was inevitable with a game like this that all gameplay interactions couldn't be 100% fleshed out in the design phase. Similarly, better known characters will probably be fleshed out and a bit more aggressively costed for the simple reason to encourage play of your favorite characters. It's as much a marketing thing as it is a design thing. If no Vader was playable, WOTC would lose half the market, hands down. Also, we all saw the reaction to finally getting playable Lukes, people have been more excited about the gameplay possibilites for sure, I know I have.

As a side note: I build 90% of my squads around CS Yoda as I think it is one of the best pieces in the game by far. (My friends sooo hate facing him.)


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:21 pm 
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I have never denied there has been a slight power creep. However, between this and the past three sets, there is no reason for such outrage.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:31 pm 
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I voted that the designers know what they are doing at this point, but I think that there is somewhat of a powercreep, but its not a huge powercreep. I'm surprised a lot of people are concerned over the new melee pieces, Rob said that the melees were going to be a lot better, and its happening and I see it as a good thing.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:44 pm 
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Fool wrote:
Well I voted for There being a power creep, having said that I really think that it is the norm to constantly improve the game. The sad thing being of course that characters from earlier stats that were not costed accordingly have become utterly useless.

That makes it sad for me.


thats true, but thats how a lot of games are, when moe sets are made, figs from older sets usually become obsolete eventually.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:46 pm 
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Sithborg wrote:
I have never denied there has been a slight power creep. However, between this and the past three sets, there is no reason for such outrage.


I'm not raving about how bad it is. I'm just saying that the game is just adjusting, from universe onward. Some orginal figures were never that great, but are better priced with more power. Now the designers know in what direction they are going, and how to actually make playable jedi and others.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:46 pm 
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Hey, the ol' Vader, SL and Palpatine from RS nearly beat Bane and Uggies. Came down to a single init. That is the extent of the "game breaking" power creep.

On the plus side, this conversation is a lot more civil than on the WOTC boards. I think it may get a little personal for me.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:56 pm 
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Fool wrote:
Yeah I guess so but that's just a crappy thing.



If you're talking about figures being replaced Fool, I suppose that is unfortunate. But that doesn't mean you can't use them. More often than not, I still use my CS maul, despite the fact he was "replaced" in COTF.

And Sithborg, I don't mean to get into an argument with any one person. And good point with vader and palp against bane and ugnaughts. It made me laugh, because it just so disproves power creep. :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:12 pm 
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there was power creep between rebel storm and RotS.

There has been power creep up until CotF where the JWMs were brought in.

I think at that point there was a new standard set that newer figs will be set to.

However i think cost is somewhere appropriate these days. The new unleashed figs have the best force powers going but they cost so their frequency is reduced. Its a good way of limiting the abuse of them.

So power hasn't increased, its shifted sideways.

A nice idea.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:23 pm 
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So what exactly is power creep? It is the theory that as a game continues to develop, the older pieces are outdated because the new ones are much better, and have less of a cost.


Mostly, I have issues with how people define "powercreep". They'll take one mini, and compare it against one other mini and then use that as "proof" that powercreep is happening.

I disagree that that method has any significant value.

For example, one could take the Twi'lek Scoundrel and compare it to the Aqualish Assassin and "prove" that powercreep has happened from RS to BH since they both cost 7 and the AA is way better.

But then I can counter that taking the Dark Hellion Gang Member and comparing to the Stormtrooper and the Stormtrooper is way better. So now RS has powercreep over BH.

How is that possible that both sets have powercreep over the other?

So the only valid way to define powercreep is to look across the whole spectrum of figures the set. Are the majority of the pieces truly better for their cost than previous sets?

The answer to that for every set so far has been pretty uniformly: NO.

Every set has some great pieces compared to older sets, some average ones, and some bad ones. And if the sets had magically been released in a different order the same would be true of all the sets.

So given how I define it, we can't really make any halfway reasonable judgement about powercreep until the whole set is known. (And thus I won't bother voting.)


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:51 pm 
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An intresting point NickName. I think that if all the minitures in a set were good, then every set would have to follow suit. Each set would have to outdo each other. And that's just the worst power creep. If you think about it, crappy fringe units and other crappy units in general balence the game. They fill out slots on a set list, and make sure that not every unit is good, so good units can be spread out in different sets, so there isn't a set standard for awesome miniatures.


I think that the better miniatures have improved, while they are still crappy ones in older sets, and in newer ones. Just look at the nikto soldier and the klatooinian hunter. Both are pretty terrible and made recently. The nikto soldier dates back to the CS days, so it connects the older and newer sets in that both have their share of crappy units, as do all sets. So there will always be crappy minis you wish you just didn't pull in a booster. But I think the minis that were playable are being outdated by others that do more for less, in some cases. You're talking about a general power creep, that is everything is getting better with each set. Only a few minis are spawned from powercreep. Others are reasonable, or just bad. So my theory is that a select few are subject to powercreep, not every mini in a set.


So powercreep? Slightly, only in a few miniatures. The majority are average, good, or space fillers in a set.


Very intresting ideas fingersandteeth and NickName. I agree with NickName's idea that powercreep with all the miniatures in a set has NOT happened, and fingersandteeth's idea that to curb powercreep, it has been "shifted sideways". It just balances almighty force abilities in that it makes it harder to use because of the huge amount of force points needed.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:38 am 
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But I think the minis that were playable are being outdated by others that do more for less, in some cases.


But wouldn't this also be true if the sets were released in a different order?

If, for example, Universe were the first set, wouldn't you have been playing with certain pieces that would then be "outdated" by RS or RotS or whatever came later?

Isn't this just the natural outcome of shifts created by ever-expanding variety and the subtle shifts of which combinations work best together with the new addition of 60 miniatures happen to be the good ones?

To be sure there are some obvious changes like how much of a disadvantage Melee Attack is and how much of a discount those characters have recieved in later sets, but beyond that is there really any significant change in the power-level of figures?

In the other threads people are griping about powercreep they are, often within the same paragraph, commenting about how Emperor Palpatine (from the most outdated set available!) is going to be top tier with these new Unleashed characters. Is that not as ironic as I think it is?

How can it be "powercreep" if it occurs regardless of what order the sets are released in?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:55 am 
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I voted "Yes, but it isn't too bad."

As the game progresses new abilities will come out and some will be better than before, making new minis better.

To continue to be fresh the game needs new abilities, and to sell the game WOTC needs to make new figures more appealing than older ones.

So keeping the game fresh combined with marketing is inevitably going to result in 'Power Creep' IMHO.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:29 am 
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There is a little bit going on yes but i do not think that is a bad thing. I for one am all for the 'new' melee cost anyway. Much better. This is my opinion you are entitled to yours.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:01 am 
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I also think it is important to note that when people claim there are still usable pieces from the first three sets, they were either the unbelievably undercoated pieces in their time (Boba, Aurra, Stormie), or they have some amazing CE/SA that makes them very useful with now pieces (RS Emp, R2-AM, BDO, etc).

I think you will find it very hard to look solely at the statline and say that the price for the statline has not decreased (other then Mr Undercosted Stormie).

Now, call it what you want, but I think option 1 should be a Yes. You are stating that there has been a 'repricing' in figures, yet how is this not the same as saying that old figures are further obsolete? Word it however you wish, but if the end result is more bang for the buck, then I think the answer should be yes there is powercreep.

Finally, I said this a long time ago, Boris still quotes me as saying it sometimes, it isn't just melee getting recosted, if they wanted to use that excuse then shooters could have been recosted in the reverse direction as well. Instead, we see their pricing also improve (albeit not as much) so the respective power between shooters and melee has been maintained.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:41 pm 
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Well, I voted "Yes, but it isn't too bad". I think we can definitely see little bits of change here and there, but I honestly think it is for the health of the game. Obviously, it isn't too bad, because we still see people playing some pieces from every single set available. And honestly, it's not necessarily that new pieces come out with the same abilities at a lower cost. It's more the case that new pieces come out with the same cost, but with different abilities. And perhaps those different abilities cause the new piece to be more worthwhile in the current meta. However, we've also seen where old pieces suddenly become great again because of some other new piece that comes out.

So, overall, I see it more as new abilities and characters with new sets of abilities make us perceive that there is power-creep occurring. But only in a few cases is the power creep really a 'same abilities, lower cost' scenario.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:53 pm 
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It will be interesting to see if the Mon-Cal medic is cheaper than the Polis massa medic. Assuming it has no attack and similar stats.
If so then power creep is happening across the hole minis game if not well. maybe just melee & shooters.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:01 pm 
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dreadtech wrote:
It will be interesting to see if the Mon-Cal medic is cheaper than the Polis massa medic. Assuming it has no attack and similar stats.
If so then power creep is happening across the hole minis game if not well. maybe just melee & shooters.

If the Mon Cal Medic were Fringe and cheaper, then I would agree with you.

There could be a price premium on being in Republic versus being Rebel.

I am more anxious to see some shooters and find how they compare to the old guys (is melee the only thing getting a boost?).


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:20 pm 
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"I am more anxious to see some shooters and find how they compare to the old guys (is melee the only thing getting a boost?).

I hope so, We will have some idea if any of the previews are on Han or Boba. Yes there are others i know but as we have several versions of these two it easier to compare than say Wedge who we only have one of.

@ Fool
That's a nice version of Luke. I could live with something like that. Or cost a little more to have extra hit points.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:54 pm 
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I think that there is power creep, but I don't think it is overt in general. Rather, I think power creep is a result of new abilities added and also more often available. I think of opportunist, twin attack, evade, etc of new or more common abilities that are fairly agressively costed.

Also, I believe that even if the statlines were stable (which they are not) just the increased variety and assortment of figures would increase the overall power.

At the same time, I don't think that the level of power creep is currently dangerous - some carrots need to be dangled in front of our collective eyes to keep the game healthy.


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